Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #36  Postby Jorge Henriquez » December 8th 2009, 1:49pm

From the article itself:

Châteauneuf is always a big wine, but these wines were huge — full of lush, opulent fruit with powerful, jammy flavors.


Personally, I prefer more focused and angular Châteauneufs, like the 2004s, which balance spicy fruit flavors with earthiness, minerality and whiffs of flowers and herbs. Even Châteauneufs that I’ve had from 2003, the heat-wave year in Europe, managed to balance concentrated fruit flavors with the sort of earthy, herbal, leather and tobacco character that I have always enjoyed in Châteauneuf. These came down resoundingly on the side of fruit.


“I’ve never had a vintage like this, so lacking in structure and tannins, and with so much ripe fruit at the expense of minerality and earthiness,” David [Gordon wine director at Tribeca Grill] said. “People will be happy because they are so approachable.”


So far, clear on their take. But this next statement left me scratching my head:

Will they age? Good question.

Vanessa feared that their lack of apparent structure would keep them from aging, but David believed that their balance would allow them to age well.

I think I would have to side with David on this one
— I believe they will age, but I don’t know how they will evolve.


So the question is: does Eric A think 07s are unbalanced and fruit bomb like or will they be able to age THANKS TO their balance?
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #37  Postby Roberto Rogness » December 8th 2009, 2:02pm

He thinks they will "abide" like The Dude, basically stay the same without turning into hot and disgusting prune juice like many over amped zins do, but that they will not evolve into something more interesting?
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #38  Postby Jorge Henriquez » December 8th 2009, 2:05pm

Roberto Rogness wrote:He thinks they will "abide" like The Dude, basically stay the same without turning into hot and disgusting prune juice like many over amped zins do, but that they will not evolve into something more interesting?


Not so simple sir. He appears to be grossly contradicting himself in regards to the wines being balanced.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #39  Postby Peter Baekgaard » December 8th 2009, 2:45pm

Jeb Dunnuck wrote:
Tony V e l e b i l wrote:
Matt - and they probably will but many of these cuvees were made in response to Parker in the first place.

I don't agree with this Tony. What makes you think this?


Jeb, numerous special cuvees have been made to please Parker. Boursan's Felix is one example. The new cuvees over at Le Clefs d'Or is another example. Do you think it's a coincidence with Clos St Jean's special cuvees now that Cambie is there. C'mon now, wake up.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #40  Postby Daniel Posner » December 8th 2009, 3:20pm

Look at the newest cuvee of Clos St Jean.

Cuvee Centenaire as well.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #41  Postby Peter Baekgaard » December 8th 2009, 3:40pm

I have some great stories from Gigondas as well. Weird how the proliferation of special cuvees is taking place over there as well. Does people think that happened all by itself.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #42  Postby Daniel Posner » December 8th 2009, 4:06pm

Yes, of course, Peter, technology. Duh. headbang headbang headbang
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #43  Postby Brad Kane » December 8th 2009, 4:27pm

Jack Bulkin wrote:
Jeb Dunnuck wrote:
Tony V e l e b i l wrote:
Matt - and they probably will but many of these cuvees were made in response to Parker in the first place.

I don't agree with this Tony. What makes you think this?


The Hommage, Celestins and Marcoux VV have been loved by Parker for many years, but were made well before he had any real influence in CDP.
He was given credit for his 82 Bordeaux call and followed there since the 80's. Not so much for CDP until this decade.


I don't really think that's accurate, Jack. Those that were into CDP followed Parker I think from the '89 and '90 vintages. The real issue is that CDP didn't take off with the masses until the '98 vintage, which was the best vintage since 1990 and came at a time when spiraling costs for California Cabernet and Bordeaux were starting to be too much for a lot of folks. 1998 was the "it" moment for CDP and with a remarkable string of terrific vintages since then, it hasn't looked back.

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #44  Postby Jeb Dunnuck » December 8th 2009, 4:51pm

The assertion seems to be that many (most?) special cuvees are made specifically to please Parker... And I strongly disagree with it.

From my viewpoint, the southern Rhone has gone through a transition period where growers have moved from primarily selling grapes, to bottling their own wines to now, realizing they have amazing vineyards and experimenting with what they have. Going back into the early '90s, domaines often produced special cuvees to celebrate special events so seeing more of them, especially at the quality level they're at today, doesn't strike me as odd but more of a normal progression. Are single vineyard pinots/cabs/syrahs/etc. produced solely due to Bob?

While tasting with Thierry at Usseglio, I was shown a single barrel of 100% grenache from les serres that they had put into new french oak. I don't even know if they're going to bottle it but I can tell you one thing, Thierry was excited about the wine. I don't believe for a second he doesn't like his cuvees or that he's doing it due to Parker. Julien of Barroche is experimenting with Syrah (had a fantastic barrel of '08) as well as producing a late harvest grenache a la Bonneau's Cuvee Special. Eric at Bastide Saint-Dominique has a new cuvee and I'm sure he's making the best wine he can. If someone thinks Laurence and Paul are making their Capo and Cuvee Laurence to please Parker, I'd ask if you've met them. The region is full of talented, driven people who are making wines that they like and to chalk what they're doing up to single source seems very short sighted.

Also, the fact that Parker likes some special cuvees doesn't mean the special cuvees are made for him. Are some? Possibly. But I'd like to hear facts and not extrapolations, I think or maybes.

With regards to Cambie, I find the idea that he's making wine to please critics as opposed to making wine he thinks is good absurd.

Anyway, my two cents.

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #45  Postby Peter Baekgaard » December 8th 2009, 4:56pm

Jeb, my best guess is that I have spent significantly more time in the Southern Rhone than you. I am not guessing when I say something. I think you are quite naive if you think the emergence of special cuvees has nothing to do with pleasing certain critics. One day if we meet up in the Rhone I'll tell you some good stories.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #46  Postby Peter Baekgaard » December 8th 2009, 5:03pm

And Jeb, maybe you'd be kind enough to explain why Clos St Jean went from producing no special cuvees to two when Cambie came in as consultant? Do you think that was a coincidence? Formula wine making. Soften up the wines, make them more forward/approachable young, step up the extraction, make a few cuvees and vupti with the help of RP you've achieved world fame.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #47  Postby Jeb Dunnuck » December 8th 2009, 5:03pm

Peter Baekgaard wrote:Jeb, my best guess is that I have spent significantly more time in the Southern Rhone than you. I am not guessing when I say something. I think you are quite naive if you think the emergence of special cuvees has nothing to do with pleasing certain critics. One day if we meet up in the Rhone I'll tell you some good stories.


First, I never said nothing... and second, lets hear it.

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #48  Postby Jeb Dunnuck » December 8th 2009, 5:04pm

Peter Baekgaard wrote:And Jeb, maybe you'd be kind enough to explain why Clos St Jean went from producing no special cuvees to two when Cambie came in as consultant? Do you think that was a coincidence? Formula wine making. Soften up the wines, make them more forward/approachable young, step up the extraction, make a few cuvees and vupti with the help of RP you've achieved world fame.


Sorry, you think Clos Saint Jean is making soft/approachable/formula wines?

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #49  Postby Peter Baekgaard » December 8th 2009, 5:13pm

Jeb Dunnuck wrote:
Peter Baekgaard wrote:And Jeb, maybe you'd be kind enough to explain why Clos St Jean went from producing no special cuvees to two when Cambie came in as consultant? Do you think that was a coincidence? Formula wine making. Soften up the wines, make them more forward/approachable young, step up the extraction, make a few cuvees and vupti with the help of RP you've achieved world fame.


Sorry, you think Clos Saint Jean is making soft/approachable/formula wines?


Yes, very extracted, jammy, fruit forward wines that most people, including you I believe, find seductive when they are young. If you compare them to what Maurel produced in the past - there is a significant change of style. I am not a fan of these wines at all. I believe RP likes them no? I believe he likes every single wine where Cambie is involved.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #50  Postby Tony V e l e b i l » December 8th 2009, 5:14pm

Jeb - I know for a fact that Belle Helene was made specifically for Parker. I have had dinner with the person who help blend the first Belle Helene and the goal was to create something for Robert Parker.

I don't doubt that some of these wines were created b/c winemakers saw an opportunity to capitalize on the favorable press (and subsequent demand for the wines) Robert Parker was heaping on them from 89/90 onward. Why not in effect Single Vineyard Designate (that's really the analogy here) and charge 2x, 3x, 4x the price of your "basic" bottling. Do a barrel or site selection, and if Parker anoints big points and great notes, voila, you have something you can sell for a lot of cash. I suspect importers may have also pushed for more luxury cuvees as well as a way to exploit demand.

It is no different than CA SVD Pinot makers. Why spend $5000 per ton to make an appellation wine that you can sell for $30-35 when you can slap a SVD label on it and sell it for $50-60.

I still recall one winery sending out their newsletter for their Pinots. They talked about this particular vineyard, how great it was, how it formed their appellation Pinot but they liked 8 barrels (or so) so much they decided to SVD part of the production. Did they sell the wine for the same dough? Nope, $20 per bottle increase. I am not sure they realized what they implied when creating the newsletter but it did not escape me.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #51  Postby Jeb Dunnuck » December 8th 2009, 5:23pm

Thanks Tony and I appreciate the info.

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #52  Postby GregUrsino » December 8th 2009, 6:17pm

Tony V e l e b i l wrote:Jeb - I know for a fact that Belle Helene was made specifically for Parker. I have had dinner with the person who help blend the first Belle Helene and the goal was to create something for Robert Parker.

I don't doubt that some of these wines were created b/c winemakers saw an opportunity to capitalize on the favorable press (and subsequent demand for the wines) Robert Parker was heaping on them from 89/90 onward. Why not in effect Single Vineyard Designate (that's really the analogy here) and charge 2x, 3x, 4x the price of your "basic" bottling. Do a barrel or site selection, and if Parker anoints big points and great notes, voila, you have something you can sell for a lot of cash. I suspect importers may have also pushed for more luxury cuvees as well as a way to exploit demand.

It is no different than CA SVD Pinot makers. Why spend $5000 per ton to make an appellation wine that you can sell for $30-35 when you can slap a SVD label on it and sell it for $50-60.

I still recall one winery sending out their newsletter for their Pinots. They talked about this particular vineyard, how great it was, how it formed their appellation Pinot but they liked 8 barrels (or so) so much they decided to SVD part of the production. Did they sell the wine for the same dough? Nope, $20 per bottle increase. I am not sure they realized what they implied when creating the newsletter but it did not escape me.



Um, Tony, I luv ya but you gotta be kidding. Had dinner with a guy who helped blend the grapes who said the goal was to please Parker? First off half the wine makers in the world "want" to please one critic or another. And I'm trying to think how the whole "have dinner with some guy" equals "The owner of the winery, in an interview with such and such, admitted 'We wanted to make a wine to please Robert Parker as we thought it would help make us some money, so we made this special cuvee, Cuvee Noodles. It's $2,000 a bottle'". This reminds me of a letter a dietician wrote to the NYT I read last week which said "Studies show half of all cancers are caused by a persons diet.' Ya. I mean I know you can say something with conviction, but that does not make it fact.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #53  Postby Tony V e l e b i l » December 8th 2009, 6:20pm

GregUrsino wrote:
Tony V e l e b i l wrote:Jeb - I know for a fact that Belle Helene was made specifically for Parker. I have had dinner with the person who help blend the first Belle Helene and the goal was to create something for Robert Parker.

I don't doubt that some of these wines were created b/c winemakers saw an opportunity to capitalize on the favorable press (and subsequent demand for the wines) Robert Parker was heaping on them from 89/90 onward. Why not in effect Single Vineyard Designate (that's really the analogy here) and charge 2x, 3x, 4x the price of your "basic" bottling. Do a barrel or site selection, and if Parker anoints big points and great notes, voila, you have something you can sell for a lot of cash. I suspect importers may have also pushed for more luxury cuvees as well as a way to exploit demand.

It is no different than CA SVD Pinot makers. Why spend $5000 per ton to make an appellation wine that you can sell for $30-35 when you can slap a SVD label on it and sell it for $50-60.

I still recall one winery sending out their newsletter for their Pinots. They talked about this particular vineyard, how great it was, how it formed their appellation Pinot but they liked 8 barrels (or so) so much they decided to SVD part of the production. Did they sell the wine for the same dough? Nope, $20 per bottle increase. I am not sure they realized what they implied when creating the newsletter but it did not escape me.



Um, Tony, I luv ya but you gotta be kidding. Had dinner with a guy who helped blend the grapes who said the goal was to please Parker? First off half the wine makers in the world "want" to please one critic or another. And I'm trying to think how the whole "have dinner with some guy" equals "The owner of the winery, in an interview with such and such, admitted 'We wanted to make a wine to please Robert Parker as we thought it would help make us some money, so we made this special cuvee, Cuvee Noodles. It's $2,000 a bottle'". This reminds me of a letter a dietician wrote to the NYT I read last week which said "Studies show half of all cancers are caused by a persons diet.' Ya. I mean I know you can say something with conviction, but that does not make it fact.


Greg - with all due respect, you don't know who it is I had dinner with (multiple times btw and will be seeing said person soon again) and what his relationship is to the winery folks. This person has or had more Ogier than just about anyone in the country and was responsible for importing it or at least getting to importers in the late 80's early 90's. He has spent a great deal of time with the Ogier's and I trust him when he tells me they created the Belle Helene specifically for Parker.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #54  Postby Brad Kane » December 8th 2009, 6:43pm

Greg, fwiw, I've had dinner with the same person Tony is talking about and this fellow did indeed consult with Ogier with regard to creating the Belle Helene to be a critic's darling.

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #55  Postby Jim Brennan » December 8th 2009, 7:00pm

Why is this surprising to anyone?
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #56  Postby Lou Kessler » December 8th 2009, 7:12pm

Jim Cowan wrote:
M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote:Can you get 05 Hommage at a discount - yup - and at $295 from Rare Wine I think it could be the deal of the year...

Good heavens.
While I don't dispute it (not having either experience or knowledge of such cuvees), I am appalled that a $300 current release, wine could be considered "a deal."
Best, Jim

You're kinder than I am $300 for a CDP is ludicrous IMHO
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #57  Postby GregUrsino » December 8th 2009, 7:14pm

well alright then
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #58  Postby A S K R O B A C K » December 8th 2009, 9:49pm

Jim Cowan wrote:
Paul Jaouen wrote:Parker's comments and scores are unfortunate in that it will only push more domaines to make this jammy overbearing style.

Paul,
In years past, I would have agreed with this statement.
These days, I'm not as sure.
Do you think that his comments and scores have as much influence on wine styles today as they did, say five years ago?


If you look at current pricing on the 2007s, which is silly, the answer Jim is "yes". However, that is based on an old world philosophy left over in the hearts of present day importers, wholesalers, and retailers. The world has changed and those who bought up the high end 07s on Parker's scores will regret that, I bet. Pricing on the 07s will go nowhere.

Happy to hear Asimov's view, too, as it reinforces my bet.
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #59  Postby A S K R O B A C K » December 8th 2009, 9:59pm

Lou Kessler wrote:
Jim Cowan wrote:
M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote:Can you get 05 Hommage at a discount - yup - and at $295 from Rare Wine I think it could be the deal of the year...

Good heavens.
While I don't dispute it (not having either experience or knowledge of such cuvees), I am appalled that a $300 current release, wine could be considered "a deal."
Best, Jim

You're kinder than I am $300 for a CDP is ludicrous IMHO


Half that is ludicrous, frankly.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #60  Postby Vincent Fritzsche » December 8th 2009, 10:02pm

The Stupids kick out the jam!
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #61  Postby C Zeitler » December 9th 2009, 1:21am

A S K R O B A C K wrote: Pricing on the 07s will go nowhere.

Happy to hear Asimov's view, too, as it reinforces my bet.



I am quite a fan of the 07 vintage I have to confess. Makes me a Parker whore in the eyes of people on this board I guess. All the special cuvees just made for Parker. Wow. As if making better wine is something undesirable.

Anyway, can I just reiterate: US PRICES GONE CRAZY DO NOT REFLECT CDP PRICING HERE AT THE DOMAINE.

You can still buy Pierre Usseglios Mon Aieul (100 PP) at the Domaine for the original price although they ask you to buy also the base cuvee to drive away the flippers. Many are still available and I have paid not more than €43 for ANY wine or special cuvee including Mon Aieul, Clos des Papes, etc. (Da Capo will be the exception). Retailers gone wild is not the same as the Domaine gone crazy because they receive 96-100 points for a wine.

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P.S. I was never a fan of Parker, but this constant bashing in every thread is killing all the fun here.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #62  Postby mauss » December 9th 2009, 2:43am

Mr Zeitler :

This new BB is a young one. Created by many geeks who have "killed" the father. It will take some times before this BB will mature and will cut all links for this "father".

About CDP : it is obvious here that, due to a "small" production and hype comments by Parker, the effect on price has gone crazy. For me, except rayas, CDP is only a "hunter" wine. Here in Europe, when prices are going like that to the sky, we simply shift for an other AOC.

Apparently, this is not the case in USA. Well, hopefully many of you are not only driven by a Guru : you make your own opinion by tasting. The key for serenity.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #63  Postby C Zeitler » December 9th 2009, 3:15am

mauss wrote:Mr Zeitler :


Call me Christian [thankyou.gif]

Indeed, looking for non-hype appelations is a good idea if you are not happy with prices.
I recently did a tasting tour through Vinsobre, some 30kms from Chateauneuf and just opposite
Vaison la Romaine - excellent quality, good development over the past few years and almost
unknown even in France...

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #64  Postby mauss » December 9th 2009, 4:38am

I was not sure the "c" was not for "Cunégonde"
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #65  Postby M A T T H A R T L E Y » December 9th 2009, 5:28am

Lou Kessler wrote:
Jim Cowan wrote:
M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote:Can you get 05 Hommage at a discount - yup - and at $295 from Rare Wine I think it could be the deal of the year...

Good heavens.
While I don't dispute it (not having either experience or knowledge of such cuvees), I am appalled that a $300 current release, wine could be considered "a deal."
Best, Jim

You're kinder than I am $300 for a CDP is ludicrous IMHO


If you love CDP - have had the wine - and still don't think it is worth it then more power to you.

If you've never tasted it...well...I usually have a tough time valuing wine I have never tasted...
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #66  Postby Jim Brennan » December 9th 2009, 6:36am

C Zeitler wrote:I am quite a fan of the 07 vintage I have to confess. Makes me a Parker whore in the eyes of people on this board I guess. All the special cuvees just made for Parker. Wow. As if making better wine is something undesirable.


Christian, I think it's worth pointing out that not everyone agrees that the special cuvees represent a straightforward qualitative improvement, but rather a choice about the style... and that Parker points encourage other winemakers to adopt special cuvees and make changes to the wines based on a desire to score high with Parker. This doesn't necessarily mean the changes make the wines "better" in the eyes of all.
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #67  Postby C Zeitler » December 9th 2009, 6:47am

Jim Brennan wrote:Christian, I think it's worth pointing out that not everyone agrees that the special cuvees represent a straightforward qualitative improvement, but rather a choice about the style... and that Parker points encourage other winemakers to adopt special cuvees and make changes to the wines based on a desire to score high with Parker. This doesn't necessarily mean the changes make the wines "better" in the eyes of all.


Jim,

I agree that tastes are different and that not everyone agrees about the statement that special cuvees are better wines. Myself, I prefer the Usseglio Mon Aieul to the Deux Freres, so no problem with that. But overall, tasting 30-40 special cuvees, I would boldly state that the majority is a notch above the base cuvees, and not all are different styles, just more stringent selection, older vines, different parcels.

Cheers
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #68  Postby Paul Jaouen » December 9th 2009, 7:29am

C Zeitler wrote:
A S K R O B A C K wrote: Pricing on the 07s will go nowhere.

Happy to hear Asimov's view, too, as it reinforces my bet.



I am quite a fan of the 07 vintage I have to confess. Makes me a Parker whore in the eyes of people on this board I guess. All the special cuvees just made for Parker. Wow. As if making better wine is something undesirable.

Anyway, can I just reiterate: US PRICES GONE CRAZY DO NOT REFLECT CDP PRICING HERE AT THE DOMAINE.

You can still buy Pierre Usseglios Mon Aieul (100 PP) at the Domaine for the original price although they ask you to buy also the base cuvee to drive away the flippers. Many are still available and I have paid not more than €43 for ANY wine or special cuvee including Mon Aieul, Clos des Papes, etc. (Da Capo will be the exception). Retailers gone wild is not the same as the Domaine gone crazy because they receive 96-100 points for a wine.

Just my 2 cents
Christian

P.S. I was never a fan of Parker, but this constant bashing in every thread is killing all the fun here.


Christian, good point on prices at the domaine. Also I wouldn't blame retailers as much as I would the importers/distributers for the prices.
Best,
Paul Jaouen
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Daniel Posner
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #69  Postby Daniel Posner » December 9th 2009, 7:32am

C Zeitler wrote:
Anyway, can I just reiterate: US PRICES GONE CRAZY DO NOT REFLECT CDP PRICING HERE AT THE DOMAINE.


Christian,

European prices (outside the Domaine) have gone pretty crazy as well. How much are the UK merchants selling 2007 Usseglio Mon Aieul for? What about the Paris brokers?

The Domaines, if they have kept their prices "cheap," kudos to them, although, one could argue thaat Mon Aieul, just a few years ago, was significantly less than 43 euros ex Domaine.

Nevertheless, we should applaud them for holding prices, even if it is just a few btls that they are selling at this point.
ITB

ht
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Peter Baekgaard
 
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #70  Postby Peter Baekgaard » December 9th 2009, 7:43am

Also, it depends on which domaines one is talking about. The prices for a Clos des Papes has gone up 30-40% from the domaine over the last 5-7 years in EUR terms.

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