Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

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Jeb Dunnuck
 
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #51  Postby Jeb Dunnuck » December 8th 2009, 5:23pm

Thanks Tony and I appreciate the info.

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #52  Postby GregUrsino » December 8th 2009, 6:17pm

Tony V e l e b i l wrote:Jeb - I know for a fact that Belle Helene was made specifically for Parker. I have had dinner with the person who help blend the first Belle Helene and the goal was to create something for Robert Parker.

I don't doubt that some of these wines were created b/c winemakers saw an opportunity to capitalize on the favorable press (and subsequent demand for the wines) Robert Parker was heaping on them from 89/90 onward. Why not in effect Single Vineyard Designate (that's really the analogy here) and charge 2x, 3x, 4x the price of your "basic" bottling. Do a barrel or site selection, and if Parker anoints big points and great notes, voila, you have something you can sell for a lot of cash. I suspect importers may have also pushed for more luxury cuvees as well as a way to exploit demand.

It is no different than CA SVD Pinot makers. Why spend $5000 per ton to make an appellation wine that you can sell for $30-35 when you can slap a SVD label on it and sell it for $50-60.

I still recall one winery sending out their newsletter for their Pinots. They talked about this particular vineyard, how great it was, how it formed their appellation Pinot but they liked 8 barrels (or so) so much they decided to SVD part of the production. Did they sell the wine for the same dough? Nope, $20 per bottle increase. I am not sure they realized what they implied when creating the newsletter but it did not escape me.



Um, Tony, I luv ya but you gotta be kidding. Had dinner with a guy who helped blend the grapes who said the goal was to please Parker? First off half the wine makers in the world "want" to please one critic or another. And I'm trying to think how the whole "have dinner with some guy" equals "The owner of the winery, in an interview with such and such, admitted 'We wanted to make a wine to please Robert Parker as we thought it would help make us some money, so we made this special cuvee, Cuvee Noodles. It's $2,000 a bottle'". This reminds me of a letter a dietician wrote to the NYT I read last week which said "Studies show half of all cancers are caused by a persons diet.' Ya. I mean I know you can say something with conviction, but that does not make it fact.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #53  Postby Tony V e l e b i l » December 8th 2009, 6:20pm

GregUrsino wrote:
Tony V e l e b i l wrote:Jeb - I know for a fact that Belle Helene was made specifically for Parker. I have had dinner with the person who help blend the first Belle Helene and the goal was to create something for Robert Parker.

I don't doubt that some of these wines were created b/c winemakers saw an opportunity to capitalize on the favorable press (and subsequent demand for the wines) Robert Parker was heaping on them from 89/90 onward. Why not in effect Single Vineyard Designate (that's really the analogy here) and charge 2x, 3x, 4x the price of your "basic" bottling. Do a barrel or site selection, and if Parker anoints big points and great notes, voila, you have something you can sell for a lot of cash. I suspect importers may have also pushed for more luxury cuvees as well as a way to exploit demand.

It is no different than CA SVD Pinot makers. Why spend $5000 per ton to make an appellation wine that you can sell for $30-35 when you can slap a SVD label on it and sell it for $50-60.

I still recall one winery sending out their newsletter for their Pinots. They talked about this particular vineyard, how great it was, how it formed their appellation Pinot but they liked 8 barrels (or so) so much they decided to SVD part of the production. Did they sell the wine for the same dough? Nope, $20 per bottle increase. I am not sure they realized what they implied when creating the newsletter but it did not escape me.



Um, Tony, I luv ya but you gotta be kidding. Had dinner with a guy who helped blend the grapes who said the goal was to please Parker? First off half the wine makers in the world "want" to please one critic or another. And I'm trying to think how the whole "have dinner with some guy" equals "The owner of the winery, in an interview with such and such, admitted 'We wanted to make a wine to please Robert Parker as we thought it would help make us some money, so we made this special cuvee, Cuvee Noodles. It's $2,000 a bottle'". This reminds me of a letter a dietician wrote to the NYT I read last week which said "Studies show half of all cancers are caused by a persons diet.' Ya. I mean I know you can say something with conviction, but that does not make it fact.


Greg - with all due respect, you don't know who it is I had dinner with (multiple times btw and will be seeing said person soon again) and what his relationship is to the winery folks. This person has or had more Ogier than just about anyone in the country and was responsible for importing it or at least getting to importers in the late 80's early 90's. He has spent a great deal of time with the Ogier's and I trust him when he tells me they created the Belle Helene specifically for Parker.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #54  Postby Brad Kane » December 8th 2009, 6:43pm

Greg, fwiw, I've had dinner with the same person Tony is talking about and this fellow did indeed consult with Ogier with regard to creating the Belle Helene to be a critic's darling.

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #55  Postby Jim Brennan » December 8th 2009, 7:00pm

Why is this surprising to anyone?
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #56  Postby Lou Kessler » December 8th 2009, 7:12pm

Jim Cowan wrote:
M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote:Can you get 05 Hommage at a discount - yup - and at $295 from Rare Wine I think it could be the deal of the year...

Good heavens.
While I don't dispute it (not having either experience or knowledge of such cuvees), I am appalled that a $300 current release, wine could be considered "a deal."
Best, Jim

You're kinder than I am $300 for a CDP is ludicrous IMHO
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #57  Postby GregUrsino » December 8th 2009, 7:14pm

well alright then
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #58  Postby A S K R O B A C K » December 8th 2009, 9:49pm

Jim Cowan wrote:
Paul Jaouen wrote:Parker's comments and scores are unfortunate in that it will only push more domaines to make this jammy overbearing style.

Paul,
In years past, I would have agreed with this statement.
These days, I'm not as sure.
Do you think that his comments and scores have as much influence on wine styles today as they did, say five years ago?


If you look at current pricing on the 2007s, which is silly, the answer Jim is "yes". However, that is based on an old world philosophy left over in the hearts of present day importers, wholesalers, and retailers. The world has changed and those who bought up the high end 07s on Parker's scores will regret that, I bet. Pricing on the 07s will go nowhere.

Happy to hear Asimov's view, too, as it reinforces my bet.
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #59  Postby A S K R O B A C K » December 8th 2009, 9:59pm

Lou Kessler wrote:
Jim Cowan wrote:
M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote:Can you get 05 Hommage at a discount - yup - and at $295 from Rare Wine I think it could be the deal of the year...

Good heavens.
While I don't dispute it (not having either experience or knowledge of such cuvees), I am appalled that a $300 current release, wine could be considered "a deal."
Best, Jim

You're kinder than I am $300 for a CDP is ludicrous IMHO


Half that is ludicrous, frankly.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #60  Postby Vincent Fritzsche » December 8th 2009, 10:02pm

The Stupids kick out the jam!
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #61  Postby C Zeitler » December 9th 2009, 1:21am

A S K R O B A C K wrote: Pricing on the 07s will go nowhere.

Happy to hear Asimov's view, too, as it reinforces my bet.



I am quite a fan of the 07 vintage I have to confess. Makes me a Parker whore in the eyes of people on this board I guess. All the special cuvees just made for Parker. Wow. As if making better wine is something undesirable.

Anyway, can I just reiterate: US PRICES GONE CRAZY DO NOT REFLECT CDP PRICING HERE AT THE DOMAINE.

You can still buy Pierre Usseglios Mon Aieul (100 PP) at the Domaine for the original price although they ask you to buy also the base cuvee to drive away the flippers. Many are still available and I have paid not more than €43 for ANY wine or special cuvee including Mon Aieul, Clos des Papes, etc. (Da Capo will be the exception). Retailers gone wild is not the same as the Domaine gone crazy because they receive 96-100 points for a wine.

Just my 2 cents
Christian

P.S. I was never a fan of Parker, but this constant bashing in every thread is killing all the fun here.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #62  Postby mauss » December 9th 2009, 2:43am

Mr Zeitler :

This new BB is a young one. Created by many geeks who have "killed" the father. It will take some times before this BB will mature and will cut all links for this "father".

About CDP : it is obvious here that, due to a "small" production and hype comments by Parker, the effect on price has gone crazy. For me, except rayas, CDP is only a "hunter" wine. Here in Europe, when prices are going like that to the sky, we simply shift for an other AOC.

Apparently, this is not the case in USA. Well, hopefully many of you are not only driven by a Guru : you make your own opinion by tasting. The key for serenity.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #63  Postby C Zeitler » December 9th 2009, 3:15am

mauss wrote:Mr Zeitler :


Call me Christian [thankyou.gif]

Indeed, looking for non-hype appelations is a good idea if you are not happy with prices.
I recently did a tasting tour through Vinsobre, some 30kms from Chateauneuf and just opposite
Vaison la Romaine - excellent quality, good development over the past few years and almost
unknown even in France...

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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #64  Postby mauss » December 9th 2009, 4:38am

I was not sure the "c" was not for "Cunégonde"
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #65  Postby M A T T H A R T L E Y » December 9th 2009, 5:28am

Lou Kessler wrote:
Jim Cowan wrote:
M A T T H A R T L E Y wrote:Can you get 05 Hommage at a discount - yup - and at $295 from Rare Wine I think it could be the deal of the year...

Good heavens.
While I don't dispute it (not having either experience or knowledge of such cuvees), I am appalled that a $300 current release, wine could be considered "a deal."
Best, Jim

You're kinder than I am $300 for a CDP is ludicrous IMHO


If you love CDP - have had the wine - and still don't think it is worth it then more power to you.

If you've never tasted it...well...I usually have a tough time valuing wine I have never tasted...
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #66  Postby Jim Brennan » December 9th 2009, 6:36am

C Zeitler wrote:I am quite a fan of the 07 vintage I have to confess. Makes me a Parker whore in the eyes of people on this board I guess. All the special cuvees just made for Parker. Wow. As if making better wine is something undesirable.


Christian, I think it's worth pointing out that not everyone agrees that the special cuvees represent a straightforward qualitative improvement, but rather a choice about the style... and that Parker points encourage other winemakers to adopt special cuvees and make changes to the wines based on a desire to score high with Parker. This doesn't necessarily mean the changes make the wines "better" in the eyes of all.
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #67  Postby C Zeitler » December 9th 2009, 6:47am

Jim Brennan wrote:Christian, I think it's worth pointing out that not everyone agrees that the special cuvees represent a straightforward qualitative improvement, but rather a choice about the style... and that Parker points encourage other winemakers to adopt special cuvees and make changes to the wines based on a desire to score high with Parker. This doesn't necessarily mean the changes make the wines "better" in the eyes of all.


Jim,

I agree that tastes are different and that not everyone agrees about the statement that special cuvees are better wines. Myself, I prefer the Usseglio Mon Aieul to the Deux Freres, so no problem with that. But overall, tasting 30-40 special cuvees, I would boldly state that the majority is a notch above the base cuvees, and not all are different styles, just more stringent selection, older vines, different parcels.

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Christian
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #68  Postby Paul Jaouen » December 9th 2009, 7:29am

C Zeitler wrote:
A S K R O B A C K wrote: Pricing on the 07s will go nowhere.

Happy to hear Asimov's view, too, as it reinforces my bet.



I am quite a fan of the 07 vintage I have to confess. Makes me a Parker whore in the eyes of people on this board I guess. All the special cuvees just made for Parker. Wow. As if making better wine is something undesirable.

Anyway, can I just reiterate: US PRICES GONE CRAZY DO NOT REFLECT CDP PRICING HERE AT THE DOMAINE.

You can still buy Pierre Usseglios Mon Aieul (100 PP) at the Domaine for the original price although they ask you to buy also the base cuvee to drive away the flippers. Many are still available and I have paid not more than €43 for ANY wine or special cuvee including Mon Aieul, Clos des Papes, etc. (Da Capo will be the exception). Retailers gone wild is not the same as the Domaine gone crazy because they receive 96-100 points for a wine.

Just my 2 cents
Christian

P.S. I was never a fan of Parker, but this constant bashing in every thread is killing all the fun here.


Christian, good point on prices at the domaine. Also I wouldn't blame retailers as much as I would the importers/distributers for the prices.
Best,
Paul Jaouen
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Re: Eric Asimov chimes in on 2007 CdP

Post #69  Postby Daniel Posner » December 9th 2009, 7:32am

C Zeitler wrote:
Anyway, can I just reiterate: US PRICES GONE CRAZY DO NOT REFLECT CDP PRICING HERE AT THE DOMAINE.


Christian,

European prices (outside the Domaine) have gone pretty crazy as well. How much are the UK merchants selling 2007 Usseglio Mon Aieul for? What about the Paris brokers?

The Domaines, if they have kept their prices "cheap," kudos to them, although, one could argue thaat Mon Aieul, just a few years ago, was significantly less than 43 euros ex Domaine.

Nevertheless, we should applaud them for holding prices, even if it is just a few btls that they are selling at this point.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #70  Postby Peter Baekgaard » December 9th 2009, 7:43am

Also, it depends on which domaines one is talking about. The prices for a Clos des Papes has gone up 30-40% from the domaine over the last 5-7 years in EUR terms.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #71  Postby Daniel Posner » December 9th 2009, 8:04am

Peter Baekgaard wrote:Also, it depends on which domaines one is talking about. The prices for a Clos des Papes has gone up 30-40% from the domaine over the last 5-7 years in EUR terms.


Which translate to 100% increase in the US, as dollar got weaker. Not the domaine's fault, just reality.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #72  Postby C Zeitler » December 9th 2009, 8:40am

Peter Baekgaard wrote:Also, it depends on which domaines one is talking about. The prices for a Clos des Papes has gone up 30-40% from the domaine over the last 5-7 years in EUR terms.


Peter,

absolutely, but at around 40 Euros it is still good value if you like the style.

The only Domaines that have put prices up beyond any sensible level ex-Domaine are
a) Pegau Da Capo 2007 €150 (reserved 3, unsure if I will buy)
b) Mordoree Plume de Peintre 2005 €100 (ex Domaine when the 100 points were out, bought 3)
c) Barroche Pure €90 (although Julien admits it was more a joke when his inventory was almost sold out to see if anybody would buy at these prices - his regular price was around €40)

Maybe somebody else can throw in some more, but there are not many.

Cheers
Christian
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #73  Postby Paul Jaouen » December 9th 2009, 11:05am

2007 Da Capo from barrel was freaking awesome! Go for it!!
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #74  Postby C Zeitler » December 10th 2009, 1:22am

Paul Jaouen wrote:2007 Da Capo from barrel was freaking awesome! Go for it!!


But Paul,

that makes € 450 or USD 675 for 3 bottles of wine [cry.gif] What if it is corked ? What if
my children mix it with Coke to drink it ? What if my wife decides she needs a drink and
pops one ? [truce.gif] Also, I could buy 90 bottles of St. Cosme CdR for the price...

Anyhow, lets wait until February when it is in bottle and then I´ll see how the
economy is going and if I still have a job (work in the finance industry) I might buy
it...

Cheers
Christian

P.S.: When I re-read my own post I think I´ll buy the 90 bottles of St. Cosme. Great syrah for a great price.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #75  Postby Paul Jaouen » December 10th 2009, 10:54am

Christian, the low pre-arrival price is $400. Sell two for $700. Drink one bottle for free. If you don't want them, please ask Laurence to transfer ownership to me. I'll be happy to take them.
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Paul Jaouen
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #76  Postby Nick Ryan » December 11th 2009, 8:30pm

Just attended a CdP 2007 tasting. Many of the wines were overwrought, burying their fruit not with tannin that will melt away but with a bitter overextracted quality. I'll stick with cheaper CdR, I suppose. Those who must have CdP should buy selectively; there are a few gems, but you can't tell from Parker's notes.
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Re: Asimov on CdP 07s - kick out the jam!

Post #77  Postby Andrew Hall » December 12th 2009, 7:49am

Some luxury cuvées may have been created for critics, but I think keeping up with the neighbors plays a larger role in the proliferation of them.

Domaine A makes a Super CndP and sells 100cs at a premium price. A mild profit. More importantly, the buzz and image presented helps them sell out of the regular CndP of which there is way more (and way more consumers who can access and afford it.) The next vintage, do you think that Domaine B isn't going to see this business model and copy it?

This business model is pretty prevalent in all sorts of luxury markets even without singularly influential critics, it is not surprising to be copied in wine.


A.
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