The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

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The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #1  Postby Jamie Kutch » November 30th 2010, 10:17am

http://www.sanfranmag.com/story/the-fru ... resistance

Above is a well written piece on the 2010 vintage as well as more opinions on the alcohol debate.

It appears as though we are at a tipping point and no matter what your opinion on the alcohol subject, there are certainly more choices than ever to be made.

Between this article by Jordan Mackay, NY Times (Eric Asimov), SF Chronicle (Jon Bonne), Wall Street Journal (Lettie Teague), the voices for lower alcohol are growing, reaching and preaching. Sommeliers are also growing in numbers across the US and seeking much of the same to pair with their cuisines. Twitter is yet another voices which continues the debate and spreads it even further.

While the biggest publication, The Wine Spectator has yet to say anything on the subject, maybe it's being penned right now? There is no question there is a demand for low alcohol wines. Do you think the biggest teacher will share the gospel.
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The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #2  Postby Scott Manlin » November 30th 2010, 10:22am

No

But I definitely believe in the trend (2010 notwithstanding). :-)
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #3  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » November 30th 2010, 10:23am

Jamie, are these numbers by design...are you shooting for a target...or are you going with what Mother Nature hands you?

Alcohol percentages for the past six vintages of Kutch’s pinot noir:
2005: 16.3%
2006: 15.3%
2007: 14.1%
2008: 13.9%
2009: 13.2%
2010: 12.8%
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #4  Postby Jamie Kutch » November 30th 2010, 10:27am

Good to hear from you Bill..

I don't understand your question but if you are asking if I did anything to the must to achieve those alcohol levels the answer is no. I picked early. I am picking on taste as well, I am not picking simply on numbers.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #5  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » November 30th 2010, 10:40am

Just wanted to know if you started each of those harvests with a target ABV in mind with the intent of shooting for a lower ETOH and higher acid wine, or if you just rolled with what the vintage threw at you.

Lots of folks out there, I think, have a plan that they are after in regard to ripeness, acid, ABV, etc and can get creative to achive those goals....not that there is anything wrong with that approach at all. 12.8% is about the lowest I have seen that I can remember on modern wines of any varietal...again, nothing wrong with that at all.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #6  Postby k s h i n » November 30th 2010, 10:41am

Jamie Kutch wrote:the voices for lower alcohol are growing, reaching and preaching. Sommeliers are also growing in numbers across the US and seeking much of the same to pair with their cuisines. Twitter is yet another voices which continues the debate and spreads it even further.


I don’t think the voice is that loud yet. If you are new to wine, you would prefer a hint of sweetness that comes from alcohol and jammy fruit doesn’t hurt either.

BTW if a wine maker wants high rating from Bob, go high alcohol or from Allen go low, pretty obvious. I will definitely buy/try Kutch wine to check where California can achieve phenolic ripeness @ below 13% alcohol.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #7  Postby Jamie Kutch » November 30th 2010, 10:49am

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:Just wanted to know if you started each of those harvests with a target ABV in mind with the intent of shooting for a lower ETOH and higher acid wine, or if you just rolled with what the vintage threw at you.

Lots of folks out there, I think, have a plan that they are after in regard to ripeness, acid, ABV, etc and can get creative to achive those goals....not that there is anything wrong with that approach at all. 12.8% is about the lowest I have seen that I can remember on modern wines of any varietal...again, nothing wrong with that at all.


The yields in the vineyard were less than 1 ton per acre. The soil is well drained. The hang time was incredibly long in 2010 so these factors enabled the 12.8% alcohol wine to be made. The same wine was made in 2009 from Falstaff. Finished alcohol was also 12.8% alcohol. After aging for 18 months in barrel though, the alcohol elevated to 13.2% (right now). It too had incredibly low yields.

Last year in Savoy I had a clone of Pinot Noir called Martini which simply never got ripe (to the taste). I picked it at 26 brix and it soaked up to 29 brix - 17+% alcohol (without any water). In that case picking early would have been meaningless as it would have tasted like a green stalk. Instead I watered back and sold off the bulk juice wine in barrel. Since 2007 I had scrapped 25% of almost every vintage and often even more of my wine to maintain what I believe in. Lower alcohol, balanced and really good wines. Even with the right site we are still weather and vintage dependent. On the other side of the pond and for an inverse view, 03 Burgundy is a perfect example.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #8  Postby Ken Rudman » November 30th 2010, 10:52am

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:12.8% is about the lowest I have seen that I can remember on modern wines of any varietal...again, nothing wrong with that at all.


I believe that this year's release of the Arnot-Roberts Clary syrah was < 12%--and it's delicious.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #9  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » November 30th 2010, 10:56am

Ken Rudman wrote:
Bill Tex Landreth wrote:12.8% is about the lowest I have seen that I can remember on modern wines of any varietal...again, nothing wrong with that at all.


I believe that this year's release of the Arnot-Roberts Clary syrah was < 12%--and it's delicious.


Wow. A domestic syrah under 12%...hell, under 15% is a rarity.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #10  Postby Ian Dorin » November 30th 2010, 10:57am

Ken Rudman wrote:
Bill Tex Landreth wrote:12.8% is about the lowest I have seen that I can remember on modern wines of any varietal...again, nothing wrong with that at all.


I believe that this year's release of the Arnot-Roberts Clary syrah was < 12%--and it's delicious.


08 North Coast from AR is 12.4. Also, Wind Gap Armagh 08 is 12.7. So much for Syrah being high octane :)

Jaime, lord knows I hope you are right.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #11  Postby Robert.Fleming » November 30th 2010, 11:03am

Ken Rudman wrote:
Bill Tex Landreth wrote:12.8% is about the lowest I have seen that I can remember on modern wines of any varietal...again, nothing wrong with that at all.


I believe that this year's release of the Arnot-Roberts Clary Syrah was < 12%--and it's delicious.
Their 2009 Green Island Vyd. Chardonnay clocks in at 12.4%, and the 2008 Hudson Vyd 'North Block' Syrah is under 12% IIRC. Both excellent, flavorful, balanced wines. The low alcohol is largely a function of their decision to seek out very cool vineyard sites.

Jamie, do you do the same?
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #12  Postby Jon Troutman » November 30th 2010, 11:17am

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:Jamie, are these numbers by design...are you shooting for a target...or are you going with what Mother Nature hands you?

Alcohol percentages for the past six vintages of Kutch’s pinot noir:
2005: 16.3%
2006: 15.3%
2007: 14.1%
2008: 13.9%
2009: 13.2%
2010: 12.8%


Jamie, I'm curious: Mackay writes that your change in preference for lower alcohol wines led to the style change. Has this been a struggle with pleasing your customers / people on your mailing list? In other words, did you have a core group of people come to know and love your '05 and '06 wines, only to be disappointed by your transition to figures in the 12 and 13% abv range?
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #13  Postby Richard T r i m p i » November 30th 2010, 11:38am

Jon Troutman wrote:Has this been a struggle with pleasing your customers / people on your mailing list? In other words, did you have a core group of people come to know and love your '05 and '06 wines, only to be disappointed by your transition to figures in the 12 and 13% abv range?
Good question Jon. My reaction was the opposite and the disappointment prompted me to miss the transition.

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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #14  Postby larry schaffer » November 30th 2010, 11:48am

Interesting questions, Jamie, and one that only one person can answer, and I don't believe he will . . .

It is difficult to base any overall statements about 'the state of the wine biz as it relates to ABV's' based on the 2010 vintage. Many a winemaker was 'forced' to make wine in a certain style because of what Mother Nature dealt, not necessarily out of choice. Should the vintage have been similar to 2005, one wonders what many a winemaker would have done.

There is no doubt many a producer that is leaning toward making lower ABV wines with higher acid levels . . . AKA wines that will work better with food in general. And I do believe we will see this trend continue . . . but I do not see this trend 'taking over the industry' as of now. Will the general public enjoy a sub 12% alc syrah, especially upon release and just popping and pouring? No, they won't . . . and herein lies the problem. Some of these wines require longer cellaring times, and some requiring quite a bit of decanting or air time. The general consumer simply does not understand this concept, nor are we as an industry educating them as to why we do this.

I'm hopeful that markets will exist for all styles of wines for that is what makes our industry as 'entertaining' and enjoyable as it is . . .

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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #15  Postby Cris Whetstone » November 30th 2010, 12:13pm

I thought wine by the numbers was supposed to be bad? [scratch.gif]
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #16  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » November 30th 2010, 12:14pm

Cris Whetstone wrote:I thought wine by the numbers was supposed to be bad? [scratch.gif]


That's ratings numbers, you nimrod.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #17  Postby Paul H Galli » November 30th 2010, 12:19pm

larry schaffer wrote:Interesting questions, Jamie, and one that only one person can answer, and I don't believe he will . . .

It is difficult to base any overall statements about 'the state of the wine biz as it relates to ABV's' based on the 2010 vintage. Many a winemaker was 'forced' to make wine in a certain style because of what Mother Nature dealt, not necessarily out of choice. Should the vintage have been similar to 2005, one wonders what many a winemaker would have done.

There is no doubt many a producer that is leaning toward making lower ABV wines with higher acid levels . . . AKA wines that will work better with food in general. And I do believe we will see this trend continue . . . but I do not see this trend 'taking over the industry' as of now. Will the general public enjoy a sub 12% alc syrah, especially upon release and just popping and pouring? No, they won't . . . and herein lies the problem. Some of these wines require longer cellaring times, and some requiring quite a bit of decanting or air time. The general consumer simply does not understand this concept, nor are we as an industry educating them as to why we do this.

I'm hopeful that markets will exist for all styles of wines for that is what makes our industry as 'entertaining' and enjoyable as it is . . .

Cheers!


Larry, you make a lot of good points.
In our "instant gratification" society, many people don't want to age a wine much past a couple of years and want to pop & pour....

I can appreciate various winemakers leaning towards making lower octane pinot, but quite frankly, many if not most of the pinot vineyards have micro-climates which do not support ripening at lower alcohol levels. Plus they often contain clones which also do not support ripening at lower Brix levels.

I believe the Kutch-Mon did his homework as to vineyards that would foster ripening at lower sugar levels.

Plus, many winemakers plan on picking very ripe grapes with the idea of watering them back.
So they'll never make lower octane wines.

I agree with you 100% that all types of pinot should be available.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #18  Postby Sean Moore » November 30th 2010, 12:27pm

Kevin Shin wrote:BTW if a wine maker wants high rating from Bob, go high alcohol or from Allen go low, pretty obvious. I will definitely buy/try Kutch wine to check where California can achieve phenolic ripeness @ below 13% alcohol.


With respect to Jamie's wines, the WA scores have gone up as the alcohol has gone down; although admittedly, only two vintages have been reviewed (the 06's and 07's - and of course there are other differences between the wines specifically and the vintages generally). It will be interesting to see what RP thinks of the 2008 and especially the 2009's and 10's. Regardless, I'm looking forward to the new releases. While I haven't barrel-tasted the newer stuff, I find the 08 to be packed with flavor and a fine achievement in a challenging vintage (and I'm not a low-alcohol missionary - last week's bottles included an Aubert Reuling and an Edmunds St. John Bone-Jolly and I had no difficulty enjoying them both).
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Adam..

Post #19  Postby TomHill » November 30th 2010, 12:31pm

I thought Adam Lee made a very good point in his comments reply.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #20  Postby k s h i n » November 30th 2010, 12:35pm

Sean Moore wrote:
Kevin Shin wrote:BTW if a wine maker wants high rating from Bob, go high alcohol or from Allen go low, pretty obvious. I will definitely buy/try Kutch wine to check where California can achieve phenolic ripeness @ below 13% alcohol.


With respect to Jamie's wines, the WA scores have gone up as the alcohol has gone down; although admittedly, only two vintages have been reviewed (the 06's and 07's - and of course there are other differences between the wines specifically and the vintages generally). It will be interesting to see what RP thinks of the 2008 and especially the 2009's and 10's. Regardless, I'm looking forward to the new releases. While I haven't barrel-tasted the newer stuff, I find the 08 to be packed with flavor and a fine achievement in a challenging vintage (and I'm not a low-alcohol missionary - last week's bottles included an Aubert Reuling and an Edmunds St. John Bone-Jolly and I had no difficulty enjoying them both).


My apologies for the over generalization. I was referring to 95+ RP, most if not all display sweet fruit expression.
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Re: Adam..

Post #21  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » November 30th 2010, 12:35pm

TomHill wrote:I thought Adam Lee made a very good point in his comments reply.
Tom


Indeed.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #22  Postby Todd Hamina » November 30th 2010, 12:55pm

I figure if both Harvey and Dr. J can give me 90/91/92 for wines that are 12.8 to 13.3 then things have begun to shift. Then again, they just might like pretty Pinot noir...

I should add that whole clusters soak up alcohol.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #23  Postby leslie mead » November 30th 2010, 12:57pm

The World of Pinot Noir (WOPN) is hosting a panel discussion on this topic on Friday, March 4th at Wild Horse Vineyards in Atascadero. So far, Eric Asimov, Raj Parr, Jim Clendenen, Adam Tolmach. Josh Jensen, Adam Lee, and Michael Browne have all agreed to participate. It should be a good one!
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #24  Postby Michae1 P0wers » November 30th 2010, 1:08pm

I don't know that WS has been silent on this issue, but I do think that they have a vested interest thus far in the fruit bomb, if only slightly less so than the WA. I saw a James Molesworth editorial while perusing the latest Spectator at a restaurant the other day where he supposes the natural wine movement to be "dead on the vine" (his quote I do believe). While only an editorial, it still seems a shout out for the status quo of the past years of higher octane and seems to refute the idea of a revolution of finesse.

But mostly just look at this year's top ten list. While CA may be putting out the aforementioned lovely lighter weight Syrahs, WS has championed some very big-boned wines. Personally I wonder how many of these periodicals would still be listening to the band as the water washed over the deckchairs.

Re Adam's comments, are they really that great? I think it is fair to assume that as the US public becomes more knowledgeable about wine that they will also consider cellaring wine at a greater rate than before, that they will demand more properly aged wines from restaurants, and that, most importantly, they will pick the wine that is at the most appropriate stage of aging rather than simply shelling out for the biggest bomb in the book or on the shelf as so many have done for so long. Adam seems very sincere in his beliefs, but he also seems to believe that there is nothing wrong with extremely ripe wines, that the idea of natural wine is some sort of seditious plot against domestic winegrowers, and that the very concept of a movement towards lighter wines is anathema and should be shouted down. I do not agree with him on any of these things.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #25  Postby John Morris » November 30th 2010, 1:09pm

Robert.Fleming wrote:
Ken Rudman wrote:
Bill Tex Landreth wrote:12.8% is about the lowest I have seen that I can remember on modern wines of any varietal...again, nothing wrong with that at all.


I believe that this year's release of the Arnot-Roberts Clary Syrah was < 12%--and it's delicious.
Their 2009 Green Island Vyd. Chardonnay clocks in at 12.4%, and the 2008 Hudson Vyd 'North Block' Syrah is under 12% IIRC. Both excellent, flavorful, balanced wines. The low alcohol is largely a function of their decision to seek out very cool vineyard sites.

Jamie, do you do the same?


Many of Copain's 09 pinots came in around 12%.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #26  Postby G. D y e r » November 30th 2010, 1:10pm

Paul H Galli wrote:In our "instant gratification" society, many people don't want to age a wine much past a couple of years and want to pop & pour....


Just one quibble here. Do you really think that in medieval Europe most consumers aged their wines? Or even in the 19th century? I suspect only a minority of wealthy nobles with cellars aged wine. Most likely the average consumer (serfs and tradesmen, perhaps) bought wine and drank it the same day.

Probably what is new is that the modern equivalent of landed nobility expect high end wine to be instantly drinkable. But for the middle classes and lower, it's probably business as usual: buy, then consume.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #27  Postby Andrew P. Vingiello » November 30th 2010, 1:26pm

Michael Powers wrote:Adam seems very sincere in his beliefs, but he also seems to believe that there is nothing wrong with extremely ripe wines, that the idea of natural wine is some sort of seditious plot against domestic winegrowers, and that the very concept of a movement towards lighter wines is anathema and should be shouted down. I do not agree with him on any of these things.


Michael...can you tell me for sure where this so called "movement" started? Was it the chicken or the egg? The winemaker or the consumer? I quite often feel this "movement" is about selling articles and selling wine...whether or not you believe in what you write or what you make. Please...educate me.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #28  Postby Sean Moore » November 30th 2010, 1:30pm

Kevin Shin wrote:My apologies for the over generalization. I was referring to 95+ RP, most if not all display sweet fruit expression.


I'm not suggesting that you've over-generalized; but rather, noting that the generalization doesn't hold true with respect to Jamie's wines - or at least not yet, but it sure might after the 08-10 reviews come out (assuming that RP gets to them). After all, the 07 was still at 14.1%.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #29  Postby Paul H Galli » November 30th 2010, 1:46pm

Michael Powers wrote: Adam seems very sincere in his beliefs, but he also seems to believe that there is nothing wrong with extremely ripe wines, that the idea of natural wine is some sort of seditious plot against domestic winegrowers, and that the very concept of a movement towards lighter wines is anathema and should be shouted down. I do not agree with him on any of these things.


Michael,

As someone who has tasted with Adam many times (And debated him many times on many subjects), he has no prejudice against lower alcohol wines and doesn't wear a tin foil hat. I also don't believe he particularly likes +15% Pinots.

Since 2004, Adam has lowered the octane on his Pinots and I find them to be balanced and rarely exhibiting heat.

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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #30  Postby Scott Butler » November 30th 2010, 1:59pm

Paul H Galli wrote:
Michael Powers wrote: Adam seems very sincere in his beliefs, but he also seems to believe that there is nothing wrong with extremely ripe wines, that the idea of natural wine is some sort of seditious plot against domestic winegrowers, and that the very concept of a movement towards lighter wines is anathema and should be shouted down. I do not agree with him on any of these things.


Michael,

As someone who has tasted with Adam many times (And debated him many times on many subjects), he has no prejudice against lower alcohol wines and doesn't wear a tin foil hat. I also don't believe he particularly likes +15% Pinots.

Since 2004, Adam has lowered the octane on his Pinots and I find them to be balanced and rarely exhibiting heat.

TTT



2004 certainly was a pinnacle for many regarding alc%. Like you, I feel that there is a good variety of Pinot Noir styles on the market today, which I am certainly happy about.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #31  Postby Linda Baehr » November 30th 2010, 2:01pm

leslie mead wrote:The World of Pinot Noir (WOPN) is hosting a panel discussion on this topic on Friday, March 4th at Wild Horse Vineyards in Atascadero. So far, Eric Asimov, Raj Parr, Jim Clendenen, Adam Tolmach. Josh Jensen, Adam Lee, and Michael Browne have all agreed to participate. It should be a good one!


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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #32  Postby Michae1 P0wers » November 30th 2010, 2:02pm

Paul H Galli wrote:
Michael Powers wrote: Adam seems very sincere in his beliefs, but he also seems to believe that there is nothing wrong with extremely ripe wines, that the idea of natural wine is some sort of seditious plot against domestic winegrowers, and that the very concept of a movement towards lighter wines is anathema and should be shouted down. I do not agree with him on any of these things.


Michael,

As someone who has tasted with Adam many times (And debated him many times on many subjects), he has no prejudice against lower alcohol wines and doesn't wear a tin foil hat. I also don't believe he particularly likes +15% Pinots.

Since 2004, Adam has lowered the octane on his Pinots and I find them to be balanced and rarely exhibiting heat.

TTT


Paul,

I do not mean to insult, I think Adam makes very reasoned points which he truly believes in; I merely think that he often seems to become very sensitive, and yes perhaps too sensitive, when subjects like this are touched upon; And yes, I am very aware that he makes a wide range of pinots from a wide range of areas. Some I have liked, others I have found too sweet/ripe.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #33  Postby Michae1 P0wers » November 30th 2010, 2:14pm

Andrew P. Vingiello wrote:
Michael Powers wrote:Adam seems very sincere in his beliefs, but he also seems to believe that there is nothing wrong with extremely ripe wines, that the idea of natural wine is some sort of seditious plot against domestic winegrowers, and that the very concept of a movement towards lighter wines is anathema and should be shouted down. I do not agree with him on any of these things.


Michael...can you tell me for sure where this so called "movement" started? Was it the chicken or the egg? The winemaker or the consumer? I quite often feel this "movement" is about selling articles and selling wine...whether or not you believe in what you write or what you make. Please...educate me.



I don't know that I could "tell you where this movement started," but if I were to guess I would suppose that there is no real beginning, that there over the course of the past decade or two public taste favored high alcohol, very ripe, dense, concentrated, hedonistic, etc. wines, the type hyped by WA and WS, and that there were always those who bucked this trend and favored wines with less ripeness and concentration. For whatever reasons I also believe that the trend towards heaviness reached a maximum density, the pendulum paused and has begun to swing back with more interest gained in the lighter style of wine. But I would certainly hesitate to name a beginning, since so many winemakers, in the US and abroad, have never embraced a higher octane, sleekly smooth, internationalized style. But if you doubt such a style exists, or that a movement peaked and headed the other way, I would probably point to a region like Barolo, where it seems many producers have given up the modern style they picked up just a short time ago. Others here can speak more eloquently than I on that subject, but I see it mentioned both here and on other boards, as a good example of this phenomenon.

Of course you could mean some other "movement" perhaps the idea of natural wine, with all its inherent conflicts. I really don't want to digress into a fight for the same ground so often battled for here, so I will leave it at that. I'm not claiming I know, it just looks that way to me, in the time I have paid attention to wine.

In any case, I don't think that it is merely a construct of vintners or journalists that for a time there was a style of wine which became popularized that was very concentrated and tended towards high alcohol and that the style has since lost some popularity, particularly where it was ill suited to begin with, resulting in blowback and something of a return to a lighter bodied, lower alcohol style in the hopes of gaining nuance and delicacy in the exchange. None of this is whole hog, it is more like watching currents, but i feel very confident that this is clearly the case.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #34  Postby Ray Walker » November 30th 2010, 2:37pm

...and the band played on...

If I read one more article on the merits of New World Pinot noir using Burgundy as the basis of what it should be....

When did this stop being about having fun and appreciating differences (for both the wine and the company it is shared with)?
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #35  Postby Scott Butler » November 30th 2010, 2:43pm

Ray Walker wrote:...and the band played on...

If I read one more article on the merits of New World Pinot noir using Burgundy as the basis of what it should be....

When did this stop being about having fun and appreciating differences (for both the wine and the company it is shared with)?


Amen.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #36  Postby Cris Whetstone » November 30th 2010, 2:59pm

Ray Walker wrote:...and the band played on...

If I read one more article on the merits of New World Pinot noir using Burgundy as the basis of what it should be....

When did this stop being about having fun and appreciating differences (for both the wine and the company it is shared with)?

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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #37  Postby N. Stambaugh » November 30th 2010, 3:16pm

Ray Walker wrote:...and the band played on...

If I read one more article on the merits of New World Pinot noir using Burgundy as the basis of what it should be....

When did this stop being about having fun and appreciating differences (for both the wine and the company it is shared with)?

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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #38  Postby Jeremy Holmes » November 30th 2010, 3:18pm

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:
Alcohol percentages for the past six vintages of Kutch’s pinot noir:
2005: 16.3%
2006: 15.3%
2007: 14.1%
2008: 13.9%
2009: 13.2%
2010: 12.8%[/b][/i][/color]


Crikey Jamie, by 2015 you'll be at Mosel Riesling levels!
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #39  Postby Jim Swayze » November 30th 2010, 3:42pm

Ray Walker wrote: If I read one more article on the merits of New World Pinot noir using Burgundy as the basis of what it should be....


And if I read one more post from someone insisting that no aesthetic standards exist, that taste just a function of personal preference...
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #40  Postby Carl Jensen » November 30th 2010, 3:49pm

Jim Swayze wrote:
Ray Walker wrote: If I read one more article on the merits of New World Pinot noir using Burgundy as the basis of what it should be....


And if I read one more post from someone insisting that no aesthetic standards exist, that taste just a function of personal preference...


So the old world lens if the 'aesthetic standard' by which new world pinots should be judged?
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #41  Postby Jim Swayze » November 30th 2010, 3:52pm

No, nature is the standard.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #42  Postby Ray Walker » November 30th 2010, 3:57pm

Jim Swayze wrote:
Ray Walker wrote: If I read one more article on the merits of New World Pinot noir using Burgundy as the basis of what it should be....


And if I read one more post from someone insisting that no aesthetic standards exist, that taste just a function of personal preference...


I'd never suggest that myself....truly...I wouldn't. ;) I think it's fair to say that I put my efforts and energies toward supporting the classification and standards system in Burgundy to a small degree. :) my comment was just that things don't need to be so rigid. I have said for a while now, especially after working in Burgundy for a very short time that it is easy to notice that there are great opportunities in The New World to move in a positive direction, leaving many doors open. I just feel that it is much too early to close these very same doors due to preconceived notions on what should and should not be expected from these growing regions.

Anyhow, like I mentioned in my post. My energy is on the swift decline of labouring a point through. I'm much more interested in learning something new and having fun. This of course is much more entertaining with a glass in hand, if not close by.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #43  Postby G. D y e r » November 30th 2010, 3:59pm

Jim Swayze wrote:No, nature is the standard.


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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #44  Postby Jim Swayze » November 30th 2010, 4:11pm

Ray Walker wrote:...my comment was just that things don't need to be so rigid.


I guess so, Ray. I'm certainly not suggesting we take an axe to a barrel of Siduri or anything, but our relativism has reduced all conversations about aesthetic value in wine to simple personal preference. But there really is such a thing as "too much" or "not enough." And those aesthetic limitations are set by the material.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #45  Postby Tom Mann » November 30th 2010, 4:14pm

G. D y e r wrote:Just one quibble here. Do you really think that in medieval Europe most consumers aged their wines? Or even in the 19th century? I suspect only a minority of wealthy nobles with cellars aged wine. Most likely the average consumer (serfs and tradesmen, perhaps) bought wine and drank it the same day.

Probably what is new is that the modern equivalent of landed nobility expect high end wine to be instantly drinkable. But for the middle classes and lower, it's probably business as usual: buy, then consume.


Hi Greg

This isn't medieval Europe, but I believe one of the first famous wines, Falerian, from southern Italy, was regarded as being better with age - 'in 37 BC, Varro wrote in Res Rusticae that Falernian increased in value as it matured' (nicked from Wikipedia).

There is also the issue of wine stabilsation - until the discovery that sulphur could be used to prevent oxidisation, which apparently was used by the Romans, then forgotten, then re-used by English and Dutch merchants, but only for transportation in barrel (burning a sulphur candle inside a barrel before filling it). I think the late 1400s was when it became legal and much more commonplace.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #46  Postby Ray Walker » November 30th 2010, 4:32pm

Jim Swayze wrote:
Ray Walker wrote:...my comment was just that things don't need to be so rigid.


I guess so, Ray. I'm certainly not suggesting we take an axe to a barrel of Siduri or anything, but our relativism has reduced all conversations about aesthetic value in wine to simple personal preference. But there really is such a thing as "too much" or "not enough." And those aesthetic limitations are set by the material.


I agree whole-heartidly. With that said, I am totally open and happy that others think differently than I do. I believe it creates much more interesting outcomes and I wouldnt dare do something that may hinder someone else's opinion. So, I have my thoughts but I prefer the sound of other's voices.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #47  Postby gene keenan » November 30th 2010, 4:36pm

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:Jamie, are these numbers by design...are you shooting for a target...or are you going with what Mother Nature hands you?

Alcohol percentages for the past six vintages of Kutch’s pinot noir:
2005: 16.3%
2006: 15.3%
2007: 14.1%
2008: 13.9%
2009: 13.2%
2010: 12.8%


I was under the impression that the first two vintages were from KB which would make the difference between years less stark.

BTW, RN74 DOES have Cali Pinot and Chardonnay that exceed 14% so I wish writers and posters would stop posting such inaccurate information.

I like both styles of wines. If I am not having food i prefer a richer tasting wine but that's me.

This debate is silly; it's not an either or world, there is room for both styles.
Last edited by gene keenan on November 30th 2010, 4:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #48  Postby Wes Barton » November 30th 2010, 4:39pm

Michael Powers wrote:Paul,

I do not mean to insult, I think Adam makes very reasoned points which he truly believes in; I merely think that he often seems to become very sensitive, and yes perhaps too sensitive, when subjects like this are touched upon; And yes, I am very aware that he makes a wide range of pinots from a wide range of areas. Some I have liked, others I have found too sweet/ripe.


I don't think he's been sensitive at all. There were a lot of assertions by people that didn't know what they were talking about that needed to be questioned, discussed, fleshed out.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #49  Postby Sean Moore » November 30th 2010, 4:46pm

My admittedly limited understanding of Kant's Aesthetics suggests that judgments of taste require a measure of disinterest, thereby requiring one to conclude that he, for example, finds pleasure in a given wine because he finds it beautiful, as opposed to judging a given wine beautiful because it gives pleasure. The latter situation seems more appropos for a wine drinker, but I don't believe it is a judgment based on aesthetic standards - thus, the oft-quoted canary wine example.
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Re: The Fruit Bomb Resistance...

Post #50  Postby John Morris » November 30th 2010, 5:25pm

Andrew P. Vingiello wrote:Michael...can you tell me for sure where this so called "movement" started? Was it the chicken or the egg? The winemaker or the consumer? I quite often feel this "movement" is about selling articles and selling wine...whether or not you believe in what you write or what you make. Please...educate me.


Us wimpy, low-alcohol-pandering acid lovers were lurking there all along.

A brief history, as I see it from the perspective of someone who has followed this since the early 80s:

-- The late 70s saw a lot of very high alcohol wines in California -- on a par with today's, though there was no syrah and little pinot in those days. Zin was the big wine of choice.

-- This was followed by a much-discussed shift among winemakers in the early and mid-80s toward "food wines" with lower alcohols.

-- Things began to swing back toward riper wines in the 80s as Parker gained more influence and as his palate shifted markedly toward quite ripe wines. And this time the ripeness thing hit Europe as well.

-- This caused a bit of a polarization, with a small minority of people liking cooler climate, lower alcohol, higher acid wines (e.g., Burgundy, Loire) that didn't win much favor with Parker. When he dissed Burgundy (why drink Burgundy when you can drink Chateauneuf, he asked) and raved about flabby, overripe Zind-Humbrechts with no acid and residual sugar, the minority scratched its collective head.

-- Kermit Lynch, Neal Rosenthal and Joe Dressner went on importing the minority's kind of wines, and eventually Allen Meadows became the market-maker for Burgundy, because Parker had no credibility there. But the market at large became increasingly Parker-driven. Acid lovers remained effectively marginalized.

-- Over the past decade, the acid-loving alcohol-shunners started to find one another and lend each other moral support. The web was a big factor. The eBob board showed even the most diehard Parker fans that Parker didn't have a monopoly on informed opinion about wine. In addition, there were writers like Claude Kolm and John Gilman here in the US with very different palates, and the British wine writers took issue with some of Parker's raves about over-the-top wines like some of the 2003 Bordeaux.

-- In NYC, I would say the symbolic beginning of the Fruit Bomb Resistance movement was the opening of Chambers Street in 2001. If there is one defining feature of their eclectic range of wines, including the New World ones, it's that they aren't overripe and they tend to have refreshing acid levels. Jamie Wolfe and David Lilly found there was a market for these wines.

-- Gradually Parker's preferences began to be counterbalanced by other points of view, Eric Asimov most prominently.

And that's where we are today.

Hope that was a relatively neutral account.
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