RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

[Peter Kleban]

Another Decanter article from two weeks ago (did someone already post on this?--I don't recall it) that Spectrum is threatening to sue Kurniawan. From the article:

Greg Roberts, president and CEO of Spectrum Group International (SGI), the parent company of Spectrum Wine Auctions, said the company had reviewed the press reports and criminal complaint filed against Kurniawan.

‘Based on that review, we understand that one of the allegations made is that Mr Kurniawan unlawfully and secretly attempted to sell counterfeit wine at our London auction, which took place in early February, through a nominee,’ Roberts added.

Quick on the draw, aren't they.

[G B a r k l e y]

Another Decanter article from two weeks ago (did someone already post on this?--I don't recall it) that Spectrum is threatening to sue Kurniawan. From the article:

Greg Roberts, president and CEO of Spectrum Group International (SGI), the parent company of Spectrum Wine Auctions, said the company had reviewed the press reports and criminal complaint filed against Kurniawan.

‘Based on that review, we understand that one of the allegations made is that Mr Kurniawan unlawfully and secretly attempted to sell counterfeit wine at our London auction, which took place in early February, through a nominee,’ Roberts added.

Quick on the draw, aren't they.

Based on the information in this thread, it seems that a decision to sue could backfire significantly on Spectrum. Especially on the premise of "secretly attempted to sell."

[billnanson]

Another Decanter article from two weeks ago (did someone already post on this?--I don't recall it) that Spectrum is threatening to sue Kurniawan. From the article:

Greg Roberts, president and CEO of Spectrum Group International (SGI), the parent company of Spectrum Wine Auctions, said the company had reviewed the press reports and criminal complaint filed against Kurniawan.

‘Based on that review, we understand that one of the allegations made is that Mr Kurniawan unlawfully and secretly attempted to sell counterfeit wine at our London auction, which took place in early February, through a nominee,’ Roberts added.

Quick on the draw, aren't they.

Based on the information in this thread, it seems that a decision to sue could backfire significantly on Spectrum. Especially on the premise of "secretly attempted to sell."

It has to be PR bluster.

They would be torn to shreds (not to mention the thousands of dollars they would additionally spend) by anyone with knowledge (oops - that will include them!) of this thread.

[Nick Gangas]

If as Don said they had knowledge of the true consignor then this is nothing more than a weak attempt at deflecting criticism.

As far as the sommeliers go, I doubt anyone who saw this guy come in and drop six figures on wine would think he had a counterfeit operation going.

[Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow]

I'm curious why you believe the restaurant was unwitting. Shipping dozens of boxes of empty bottles? What would one imagine he would be doing with them?

Only because I don't know the scale....and number of restaurants..and number of boxes, etc....I only know what I read in the indictment..and this was news to me. I thought they only mentioned one place...but could be wrong.

Was it a large scale recycling service from any one restaurant so that they could claim ignorance?

I really have no idea on the complicity part, to be clear.

What is the real story on that aspect?

The complaint alleges that Cru here in NYC sent Rudy the empties on a number of occasions, at his request. Given that some of these were probably his bottles to begin with, and that he and his friends were ordering trophy bottles off the list, I can see why the sommelier would be only to happy to ship them as momentos. I don't think that implies complicity.

I would note that Rodenstock did the same thing after his big tastings.

Not sure of your point on the last one. That he's in good company? or....... that the restaurants should know better...or.....I did LOL....as it sure implies a common plan...and acomodating, if unwitting accomplices on the restaurant, as well as guest, side.

[Dan Collins]

You do have to wonder what % of what people think they know (including the prosecutors) is really true. The guy was too smooth to be a rich, passionate guy who suddenly got in over his head and turned to counterfeiting, IMO. But...who really knows...I say no one.

Stuart--The amount of speculation about RK is substantial, no question. At the moment, I'm not sure anyone else can say with any certainty when he might have decided to deal in fake wines (either re-selling or outright fabricating). It does appear quite clear, though, that at least early on in his wine pursuits he WAS buying a lot of apparently legitimate wine from auctions, retailers, direct from Europe, etc.

I will add a few things about him based on how he conducted himself in the local wine scene. First, it was obvious that he was pursuing a strategy of "networking" with key people--retailers, auction houses, top collectors, etc. If RK thought someone was important enough in the wine world, then he would look for a way to get an "in" with that person.

The flip side was also true. If RK didn't think that a given person was sufficiently important in the wine circles, then he wasn't interesting in spending one second more with that person than absolutely necessary. That doesn't make him a "bad guy," of course, but the idea that RK was a generous collector who was happy to share top wines with anyone simply didn't fit the reality. His interest in schmoozing someone was directly correlated with how important he perceived that person to be.

One of the clearest examples was the Hospice du Rhone auction some years ago (Mel Hill took the photo) where RK showed up just to bid on the SQN lot. Once he won that lot, he got his picture taken and then left. He didn't come up for any of the HdR tastings, he didn't really attempt to meet other Rhone wine enthusiasts or other winemakers, etc. To point out the obvious, if RK just wanted to bid on that one lot, he could have had someone bid on the phone for him. He wanted to win the lot and be seen (and photographed) winning the lot. Other than that, he had no interest whatsoever in HdR as a wine festival.

Bruce

I've been puzzling over Kurniawan’s legitimate wine purchases, like the one you described. Here's a theory: Kurniawan quickly resold most of this wine to make money in the overheated auction market. If this is correct, Kurniawan's supposed vast storehouse of fine wine is no more real than the Bat Cave.

So where did all the money go? His extravagant spending habits provide a possible explanation, but you have really have to wonder what the hell was going on in this man's life. Some of Rudy’s lesser alleged crimes included defrauding a California wine collector of $2.3 million and securing a $3 million loan from a New York bank through fraudulent means. I’m not even counting the $10 million or so he owed John Kapon and Acker. Or the money he may have realized from legitimate wine sales and his alleged counterfeiting operation.

Kapon is the man who probably knows Kurniawan the best, but he isn’t talking and won’t be likely to do so any time soon because of the various legal proceedings.

Kapon certainly had a very high opinion of Kurniawan. Here's what the Acker exec had to say a couple of months prior to Acker's 2006 "Cellar II" auction of Rudy goodies that pulled in $24 million:

"Some recent traveling brought me together with the owner of ‘The Cellar’ in preparation for the upcoming October auction. After a few days of hard work, we decided to have a memorable meal to celebrate the upcoming sale and were joined by a couple of close friends as well as a couple of the media’s more influential editors. As always, the owner’s generosity was way beyond the call of duty."

Next came a description of the wines they drank, including this one:

"A magnum was next, and not just any old magnum. It was a magnum of 1959 Roumier Bonnes Mares. This magnum came from a cellar this collector purchased that had 18 magnums of this nectar in total! He may have all the magnums that are left in the world, to be frank."

My jaw dropped when I read this sentence, but I don't know enough about Burgundy to make an intelligent judgment. So I'm asking this question of Burgundy lovers: How likely is it that Kurniawan was able to assemble this much 1959 Roumier Bonnes Mares in magnum?
Here’s the link: http://blogauvin.finewinepress.com/?p=209

In another blog a couple of days before the auction, Kapon had this say about Rudy:

“As a passionate wine drinker myself, it is always a thrill to share wines with the owner of this collection, not only because of the quality of the collection and his never-ending generosity, but also because of his companionship and insight into the world of fine wine. I cannot tell you how many times over the years I have spoken to this collector, and he will have told me that he just opened up a 1952 Roumier Bonnes Mares, or has had three vintages of La Tache the night before, or compared a 1947 Lafleur against a Petrus, and then proceed to tell me about the wines. He is a wine lover first and foremost; these wines were not acquired with the intention of selling them. Circumstance and an admitted touch of excess has brought them here to us.”

Kapon also talked about the provenance of Kurniawan’s wines:

“We often taste from cellars that we represent at auction not because we are thirsty all the time (which we are, of course), but rather to ensure provenance. When it comes to “THE Cellar,’ I really do not have to do that any more (ssssshhhhhhhhh!). I have tasted over 500 wines out of the cellar over the past four or five years, and all of these wines have been of the finest and rarest category, and I stress the letters “est.’ Later this week I am going to try and compile a “Greatest Hits’ from “THE Cellar’ that I have actually written up over the years, although I won’t hit you with all 500+! It will be an epic reminder of the quality represented by this collection.” Here’s the link: http://blogauvin.finewinepress.com/?p=212

Finally, here's what Kapon had to say after the auction: “It is hard to believe that only two weeks ago was the auction that changed wine history forever.”

There's also an interesting appeal to collectors:

"There is something so magical about wine; the fact that every time you drink a bottle of something significant, you are drinking a piece of history. Consider me your personal archaeologist; one willing to travel back in time on your behalf."
Here’s the link: http://blogauvin.finewinepress.com/?p=214

There you have it. Jancis Robinson was among those who attended the auction: http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/20061025.html

[John Morris]

The complaint alleges that Cru here in NYC sent Rudy the empties on a number of occasions, at his request. Given that some of these were probably his bottles to begin with, and that he and his friends were ordering trophy bottles off the list, I can see why the sommelier would be only to happy to ship them as momentos. I don't think that implies complicity.

I would note that Rodenstock did the same thing after his big tastings.

Not sure of your point on the last one. That he's in good company? or....... that the restaurants should know better...or.....I did LOL....as it sure implies a common plan...and acomodating, if unwitting accomplices on the restaurant, as well as guest, side.

I didn't mean to imply anything about Cru. I think any restaurant would do that for a customer who brought them so much business, and it would raise no suspicions. I'm sure many of us have taken home memorable bottles from restaurants.

I was just noting that both Rudy and Hardy apparently recycled bottles -- and not out of civic-mindedness.

If I recall, Rodenstock would have his people or the local sommelier grab the bottles off the serving table before anyone could look at them!

[Dan Collins]

The complaint alleges that Cru here in NYC sent Rudy the empties on a number of occasions, at his request. Given that some of these were probably his bottles to begin with, and that he and his friends were ordering trophy bottles off the list, I can see why the sommelier would be only to happy to ship them as momentos. I don't think that implies complicity.

I would note that Rodenstock did the same thing after his big tastings.

Not sure of your point on the last one. That he's in good company? or....... that the restaurants should know better...or.....I did LOL....as it sure implies a common plan...and acomodating, if unwitting accomplices on the restaurant, as well as guest, side.

I didn't mean to imply anything about Cru. I think any restaurant would do that for a customer who brought them so much business, and it would raise no suspicions. I'm sure many of us have taken home memorable bottles from restaurants.

I was just noting that both Rudy and Hardy apparently recycled bottles -- and not out of civic-mindedness.

If I recall, Rodenstock would have his people or the local sommelier grab the bottles off the serving table before anyone could look at them!

According to the criminal complaint, in 2005 or thereabouts, Rudy told the sommelier (at Cru it seems) that he needed the empty bottles for a collection in his garage. Later, Rudy claimed he needed the empty bottles for a "photo shoot." In all, 13 packages containing empty bottles were FedExed to Rudy in 2005 and 2006. He complained angrily when one of the shipments arrived with some broken bottles.

[Todd F r e n c h]

According to the criminal complaint, in 2005 or thereabouts, Rudy told the sommelier (at Cru it seems) that he needed the empty bottles for a collection in his garage. Later, Rudy claimed he needed the empty bottles for a "photo shoot." In all, 13 packages containing empty bottles were FedExed to Rudy in 2005 and 2006. He complained angrily when one of the shipments arrived with some broken bottles.

Well DAH! You can't, er, um, 'take photos' of broken bottles!!!

[todd waldmann]

Kapon sure doesn't shy away from hyperbole!!

[Dan Collins]

According to the criminal complaint, in 2005 or thereabouts, Rudy told the sommelier (at Cru it seems) that he needed the empty bottles for a collection in his garage. Later, Rudy claimed he needed the empty bottles for a "photo shoot." In all, 13 packages containing empty bottles were FedExed to Rudy in 2005 and 2006. He complained angrily when one of the shipments arrived with some broken bottles.

Well DAH! You can't, er, um, 'take photos' of broken bottles!!!

lol

[Bruce Leiserowitz]

I've been puzzling over Kurniawan’s legitimate wine purchases, like the one you described. Here's a theory: Kurniawan quickly resold most of this wine to make money in the overheated auction market. If this is correct, Kurniawan's supposed vast storehouse of fine wine is no more real than the Bat Cave.

So where did all the money go? His extravagant spending habits provide a possible explanation, but you have really have to wonder what the hell was going on in this man's life. Some of Rudy’s lesser alleged crimes included defrauding a California wine collector of $2.3 million and securing a $3 million loan from a New York bank through fraudulent means. I’m not even counting the $10 million or so he owed John Kapon and Acker. Or the money he may have realized from legitimate wine sales and his alleged counterfeiting operation.

Kapon is the man who probably knows Kurniawan the best, but he isn’t talking and won’t be likely to do so any time soon because of the various legal proceedings.

Kapon certainly had a very high opinion of Kurniawan. Here's what the Acker exec had to say a couple of months prior to Acker's 2006 "Cellar II" auction of Rudy goodies that pulled in $24 million:

"Some recent traveling brought me together with the owner of ‘The Cellar’ in preparation for the upcoming October auction. After a few days of hard work, we decided to have a memorable meal to celebrate the upcoming sale and were joined by a couple of close friends as well as a couple of the media’s more influential editors. As always, the owner’s generosity was way beyond the call of duty."

Next came a description of the wines they drank, including this one:

"A magnum was next, and not just any old magnum. It was a magnum of 1959 Roumier Bonnes Mares. This magnum came from a cellar this collector purchased that had 18 magnums of this nectar in total! He may have all the magnums that are left in the world, to be frank."

My jaw dropped when I read this sentence, but I don't know enough about Burgundy to make an intelligent judgment. So I'm asking this question of Burgundy lovers: How likely is it that Kurniawan was able to assemble this much 1959 Roumier Bonnes Mares in magnum?
Here’s the link: http://blogauvin.finewinepress.com/?p=209

In another blog a couple of days before the auction, Kapon had this say about Rudy:

“As a passionate wine drinker myself, it is always a thrill to share wines with the owner of this collection, not only because of the quality of the collection and his never-ending generosity, but also because of his companionship and insight into the world of fine wine. I cannot tell you how many times over the years I have spoken to this collector, and he will have told me that he just opened up a 1952 Roumier Bonnes Mares, or has had three vintages of La Tache the night before, or compared a 1947 Lafleur against a Petrus, and then proceed to tell me about the wines. He is a wine lover first and foremost; these wines were not acquired with the intention of selling them. Circumstance and an admitted touch of excess has brought them here to us.”

Kapon also talked about the provenance of Kurniawan’s wines:

“We often taste from cellars that we represent at auction not because we are thirsty all the time (which we are, of course), but rather to ensure provenance. When it comes to “THE Cellar,’ I really do not have to do that any more (ssssshhhhhhhhh!). I have tasted over 500 wines out of the cellar over the past four or five years, and all of these wines have been of the finest and rarest category, and I stress the letters “est.’ Later this week I am going to try and compile a “Greatest Hits’ from “THE Cellar’ that I have actually written up over the years, although I won’t hit you with all 500+! It will be an epic reminder of the quality represented by this collection.” Here’s the link: http://blogauvin.finewinepress.com/?p=212

Finally, here's what Kapon had to say after the auction: “It is hard to believe that only two weeks ago was the auction that changed wine history forever.”

There's also an interesting appeal to collectors:

"There is something so magical about wine; the fact that every time you drink a bottle of something significant, you are drinking a piece of history. Consider me your personal archaeologist; one willing to travel back in time on your behalf."
Here’s the link: http://blogauvin.finewinepress.com/?p=214

There you have it. Jancis Robinson was among those who attended the auction: http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/20061025.html

Dan--When Rudy was in his early acquisition phase, he was showing up at Acker auctions (at least the ones here in LA) and bidding. I can't tell you how much he acquired from Acker's auctions, but from all reports it should have been rather substantial. Obviously, Kapon came to know Rudy in large part through Rudy's major acquisitions from Acker. To the extent, one can understand how Kapon felt comfortable in accepting consignments from Rudy early on, since Rudy had acquired so much wine via Acker auctions.

In my view, though, that scenario completely falls apart by the time of the infamous Ponsot debacle of 2008. Rudy shows up with old Ponsot wines where Ponsot had not yet begun to produce wines from those vineyards in those vintages. Rudy, as a self-proclaimed Burgundy expert, should have been at least suspicious about the legitimacy of those bottles. But what about Acker? Any reasonably competent auction house is going to look up the auction records for those wines in order to try to develop comps for purposes of auction estimates. So any reasonably competent auction house will look up the auction records and realize that those vintages of those wines didn't have any auction history. Or retail history, for that matter. What possible "due diligence" could a competent auction house have done to satisfy themselves to put the old Ponsot wines up for auction?

Bruce

[wendyrohm]

I am trying to reach Don Cornwell. He doesn't seem to get emails I send him through this site.
Does anyone know how to reach him? Very urgent.

Thanks.

[paul hanna]

I am trying to reach Don Cornwell. He doesn't seem to get emails I send him through this site.
Does anyone know how to reach him? Very urgent.

Thanks.

I've sent Don an email, and directed him to this post for you.

[wendyrohm]

Thanks so much. I'm in Hong Kong right now..

[jeff ostroff]

I am trying to reach Don Cornwell. He doesn't seem to get emails I send him through this site.
Does anyone know how to reach him? Very urgent.

Thanks.

Book deal?

[jeff ostroff]

Thanks so much. I'm in Hong Kong right now..

Or maybe some irregularities at a local auction.

[Jeremy Holmes]

Recommendation for Peking Duck restaurant?

[Peter Kleban]

Recommendation for Peking Duck restaurant?

No telling where Rudy will lead us, is there? :-)

[Eric LeVine]

Recommendation for Peking Duck restaurant?

That is worthy of the WB humour award!

[jcoley3]

Out of curiosity, how many people here have experienced wines from any of the RK auctions? I have at least two times, and I'm curious how people are re-evaluating what they tasted in light of recent events. The two wines that I tasted that I know of are (allegedly) Clos des Lambrays 42 and Clos de Tart 43, both from THE Cellar II auction. I haven't been able to locate my hard-copy notes, though they should be in the ERP archives (if anyone happens to prowl there and wants to spend a minute or two searching, I'd lve to re-read specifics that I said), but what I tasted was in-line what what I expect from older wine based on tasting stuff with less tarnished provenance - from cellars in Beaune and not the kind of stuff that would likely be faked.

Whether what the labels said were actually what I tasted I cannot say. I had no financial interest in either bottle. I don't have enough of an ego to insist they were real. The 42 was a little frayed around the edges. The 43 was excellent. All I can be certain of is that I enjoyed the experience - whether they were real or whether they were my opprtunity to directly experience RK fakes and learn my limits as a taster.

[paul hanna]

Out of curiosity, how many people here have experienced wines from any of the RK auctions? I have at least two times, and I'm curious how people are re-evaluating what they tasted in light of recent events. The two wines that I tasted that I know of are (allegedly) Clos des Lambrays 42 and Clos de Tart 43, both from THE Cellar II auction. I haven't been able to locate my hard-copy notes, though they should be in the ERP archives (if anyone happens to prowl there and wants to spend a minute or two searching, I'd lve to re-read specifics that I said), but what I tasted was in-line what what I expect from older wine based on tasting stuff with less tarnished provenance - from cellars in Beaune and not the kind of stuff that would likely be faked.

Whether what the labels said were actually what I tasted I cannot say. I had no financial interest in either bottle. I don't have enough of an ego to insist they were real. The 42 was a little frayed around the edges. The 43 was excellent. All I can be certain of is that I enjoyed the experience - whether they were real or whether they were my opprtunity to directly experience RK fakes and learn my limits as a taster.

Jim,

I would have thought these would almost certainly be real....not famous or really particularly valuable, and wines hey probably still have ex cellar....

[Ken V]

Out of curiosity, how many people here have experienced wines from any of the RK auctions? I have at least two times, and I'm curious how people are re-evaluating what they tasted in light of recent events. The two wines that I tasted that I know of are (allegedly) Clos des Lambrays 42 and Clos de Tart 43, both from THE Cellar II auction. I haven't been able to locate my hard-copy notes, though they should be in the ERP archives (if anyone happens to prowl there and wants to spend a minute or two searching, I'd lve to re-read specifics that I said), but what I tasted was in-line what what I expect from older wine based on tasting stuff with less tarnished provenance - from cellars in Beaune and not the kind of stuff that would likely be faked.

Whether what the labels said were actually what I tasted I cannot say. I had no financial interest in either bottle. I don't have enough of an ego to insist they were real. The 42 was a little frayed around the edges. The 43 was excellent. All I can be certain of is that I enjoyed the experience - whether they were real or whether they were my opprtunity to directly experience RK fakes and learn my limits as a taster.

Here they are with some parts not related to these wines omitted (from 12-24-2006):
http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/sho ... ?p=1421984

42 Clos des Lambrays - I agree with Richard that this was nowhere near falling apart. I thought this had an almost ravishing intensity, brightness and lightness for an old wine, and it had a peacock tail finish. This fluttered like lace curtains in a cool spring breeze.

42 DRC La Tache - At first, iron, plums and pomegranate aromas. Almost tomato confit. Evolved in lovely fashion, shedding a slight pruniness in favor of dark, raspberry fruit. Soft and silky, with haunting depths. This bloomed, more than it evolved. (On an interesting side note, the bottle was a pale blue, almost like a Mosel...)

43 La Tache - Magical earthy complexity. Perfect delicate red berries. Like cherries from heaven, dusted with just a hint of confectioner's sugar. Caramel and butterscotch notes. As an only mature wines cans, a mindblowing mix of rich depths and uplifting freshness.

43 DRC Richebourg - Like turning up rocks in a French vegetable garden. Just a bit of horseradish. There was something in the nose that didn't quite work - I suspect this was more of an issue of the bottle than the wine. Much better in the mouth - again, almost breezy. Just a bit of tannin in the midpalate. Plum tomato and black cherry. Coffee and dark chocolate.

43 Clos de Tart - Incredible. Amazing nose, and the color! Just clearing. Blackberry, raspberry and seared meat. Gamey. Definitely a more masculine grand cru. Has the fresh hay and floral aromas that send me with Grand Cru Burgundy. Like an airy essence of dark fruit. Haunting, with an amazing touch of raunchy sweetness. I wavered back and forth on this and the 43 La Tache, and in the end, this was my favorite.

The wines were simply mind-blowing. I'd read about some of the wines made during WWII, but to actually taste them was a moving experience. These served as a beautiful testament to finding a way to uphold tradition and regular life, even in the face of an occupation by a government founded in the most awful human implulses.

I believe the Clos des Lambrays and Clos de Tart were from Rudy's cellar. I am fairly sure the Richebourg and the 42 La Tache were not. I am not sure of the 43 La Tache.

[Peter Kleban]

Well, whatever these wines were, it was clearly quite an experience.

[jcoley3]

Ha. Funny that I noted Rudy as the source even back then. Probably meant it as a positive...

Ken,

Thanks.

Peter K.,

It was. There were some wines that night that were sourced close to origin, so even the potential fakes in retropect couldn't overshadow some fun and genuine experiences.

Paul,

I hope so. They did taste like good old wine. and, in the case of the 43 CdT, like great old wine. Who besides RK knows for sure today? And even then...well, I hope it was real, but that puts me in a lot of company when it comes to THE Cellar auctions and Rudy K,

[Lewis Dawson]

At THE Cellar II, 3 bottles of the 1942 Lamvrays sold for $2,600 hammer price, and a singleton of 1943 Clos de Tart hammered at $550. If there was widespread fakery going on, it would not all be Romanee-Conti and Petrus mags, I would think.

[jcoley3]

At THE Cellar II, 3 bottles of the 1942 Lamvrays sold for $2,600 hammer price, and a singleton of 1943 Clos de Tart hammered at $550. If there was widespread fakery going on, it would not all be Romanee-Conti and Petrus mags, I would think.

And I would agree. As I type this, I have the empties of the 42 Lambrays and 43 Clos de Tart close at hand. The one thing I would note about both bottles is that they have considerable resiude inside - more in the case of the 43 and less in the case of the 42. The shapes of the bottles are subtly different from bottles I have from the 60s. The glass is also considerably lighter - not quite the baby blue of some 42s, bit the glass quality is lower.

Here's an interesting comparison:
1) 43 Clos de Tart - light glass bottle with considerable residue inside.
2) 42 Clos des Lambrays - somewhat clean label - clean neck 42 label. Some residue inside. Light green glass.
3) 47 Clos des Lambrays - Darker glass. Different shape. Different design neck label. Substantial interiior residue.
4) 47 Mathouillet Beaune Greves - almost outperformed the former - similar shape and in-bottle reisdue. Glass not as dark.
5) HdB 52 Volnay General Muteau - Dark glass. Shoulders break differently. Lots of residue crust inside. Dingy label.

FWIW, the cleanest labels - the 43 Clos de Tart and 42 Clos des Lambrays. The cleanest bottle inside> The 42 Lambrays by a wide margin.

Can you fake interior sediment?

Would someone fake the last two bottles?

[Lewis Dawson]

Jim, my posting of the "proceeds" from sale of these was not intended to say they are fake, but rather to point out to Paul that there is some money to had by selling these wines from these vintages. As to faking sediment, you have that in your fake if your donor wine has sediment. IF these were fake, they were probably old Burgs of somewhat lesser pedigree, which had been re-labeled, I would guess.

[jcoley3]

Lew,

My guess too. Both RK wines may well be fake. I go way back to ERP saying that fakery would extend past the most obvious wines, though I often made that argument in Bordeaux threads rather than Burg threads - it is easier to fool more people with something like 00 Leoville Poyferre or other Bdx produced in wider quantities. RK changes the game by (allegedly) faking insider wines in Burgundy (and Bordeaux) both. It would seem there are fewer wines and targets in Burgundy, but the rewards may be far higher on a per bottle basis, I still think that, at some point, mass fakery of non epic-and-old Bordeaux will hit the market.

I also wonder if white market Burgundy prices in the U.S. suddenly make a lot more sense...

[Larry Link]

At THE Cellar II, 3 bottles of the 1942 Lamvrays sold for $2,600 hammer price, and a singleton of 1943 Clos de Tart hammered at $550. If there was widespread fakery going on, it would not all be Romanee-Conti and Petrus mags, I would think.

And I would agree. As I type this, I have the empties of the 42 Lambrays and 43 Clos de Tart close at hand. The one thing I would note about both bottles is that they have considerable resiude inside - more in the case of the 43 and less in the case of the 42. The shapes of the bottles are subtly different from bottles I have from the 60s. The glass is also considerably lighter - not quite the baby blue of some 42s, bit the glass quality is lower.

Here's an interesting comparison:
1) 43 Clos de Tart - light glass bottle with considerable residue inside.
2) 42 Clos des Lambrays - somewhat clean label - clean neck 42 label. Some residue inside. Light green glass.
3) 47 Clos des Lambrays - Darker glass. Different shape. Different design neck label. Substantial interiior residue.
4) 47 Mathouillet Beaune Greves - almost outperformed the former - similar shape and in-bottle reisdue. Glass not as dark.
5) HdB 52 Volnay General Muteau - Dark glass. Shoulders break differently. Lots of residue crust inside. Dingy label.

FWIW, the cleanest labels - the 43 Clos de Tart and 42 Clos des Lambrays. The cleanest bottle inside> The 42 Lambrays by a wide margin.

Can you fake interior sediment?

Would someone fake the last two bottles?

So Rudy didn't take the empties at the end of the tasting? How did you end up with them?

Larry

[Justin Bonner]

Interesting that I received my Spectrum "Spring 2012 Auction in Hong Kong" catalogue a few days after the auction concluded. Damn! And there were a number of DRC Imperials that I would have bid on.

[Nick Gangas]

I would think that if you're going to produce fakes on a regular basis you would have to branch out beyond the usual RC or La Tache.

[jcoley3]

So Rudy didn't take the empties at the end of the tasting? How did you end up with them?

Larry

Larry,

This were not notes from an actual Rudy tasting. These wines were acquired by someone from THE Cellar II auction and served as part of a holiday dinner revolving around the book Wine and War soon after.

[Glenn Gallup]

This thread has been a real eye opener. Not only for the massive amounts of information but for the humor and writing skills of the posters. When you live where I live (and have an English teacher in the family) the level of writing skill you see every day is very disappointing. The posters here have with their fluency and literate prose restored my faith in the English language. Just in case it has something to do with the consumption of Pinot Noir based wine I'm headed to the wineshop later to get some. Won't be vintage or even ageworthy Burgundy, at my age and with my family history I don't even buy green bananas, but a veal chop and some Pinot sounds really good. What a ride and what a perfect demonstration of how the Internet has changed everything..

[Hans Hauser]

My thanks to all of you on the forum for this interesting thread.
I found my way to this website over that treadful business concerning RK.
And found some people again (what a day!) I knew and respected a lot from the other site (side ;))).
With the exception of Galloni and a few others has all blood (maybe also brain?) drained of the other site out to this wonderful place.
Lovely discussion with so much heart and emotion, deep knowledge shared with this community makes this place very special.
I happened to be at the Domaine, Rousseau and Comte de Vogue e.a. in february and this subject was discussed. As the devil wanted for, I got to meet some director of another big auction house in the USA at DRC because he was brought along with another group that had also an appointment. I did not necessarily have the impression that the excitement was very big over that situation; still as it always is, all were treated very polite and generous.
As the discussion over RK came up he bragged that they always made their due dilliganvce and Jean-Charles Cuvelier told him that they have a magnum of La Tache 2000 of them in their "museum of fakes" , because the buyer wanted to verify the originality of the bottle at DRC. As they could not do so, they kept it and this person left the Domaine emptyhanded.
After that, the person wished to see the room but the subjekt was ignored...;)))

What I want to bring into discussion are following matters:
Could it be that we have on the one side a very educational thread that can a on the other side be a very handy seminar for fakers?
It won't matter for me, because buy my wines always from start from the general importers.
That also means that I have nothing older than a 96 vintage, well with some exceptions...;()(

Also a thought: Shouldn't it be socially more interesting to share wines with the ones who aquired them from the start and share in the way new to old wine? One does what one can to participate in a round of winelovers?

I participated in many great winevents, but if it consists in auctioning off bottles to be part of it, i always stalled. I share my time with people I like.
I detest sucking on a sip of a bottle shared with 14 participants in order to say I have had this and that.
I like to taste and analyse the wines, but when the time has come I want to drink the ones I like, if it be so in generous meassures. and then is time and place for talk. Be it on the personal or business side. I think it is boring, also bothering, when you find out, that the wine you liked best has been shaved of by the crowd, because the label is nice...;(((

We have a saying in Austria - it is called "Herrschaftswissen".
If you buy cheap, you buy expensive. It will not keep or last.
It also means that if one thing is to good to be true, it is not true.

RK could only work because it was expensive - still, there was the other componend left out: How does the whole concept work? 30 years and and riding on this kind of wave?

I know people with "deep cellars" and the age coming with it.
And I know people like me with infant cellars and working their butts off to make that a smooth thing in time.
Noone wants to drink alone.
I share and get my share and social competence in interesting people as in wine.
I can't do both.
I can maybe, but then it is called onany...



What is the sense of a cellar?