RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

[Don Cornwell]

Are the high-resolution pics. still available for viewing online? I cannot find them. If they are still available, can someone please post a link thereto? TIA.

Brian:
Spectrum's website seems to be down at the moment. It was up earlier today. Just look at the "Prices Realized" section and scroll down to the Feb. 2012 auction.

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

thanks, Don. Reading your investigative posts is a lot more enlightening when I have pictures to look at while reading.

[dbailey]

Jono,

I'm surprised you bought. I couldn't stomach a single penny of my money going to an auction house that behaved in such a disgraceful way.

Dan

[JonoBeagle]

Jono,

I'm surprised you bought. I couldn't stomach a single penny of my money going to an auction house that behaved in such a disgraceful way.

Dan

Not to be rude but if that is the case, you shouldn't buy anything at auction...

We can discuss this at length in person but there are some pretty gruesome stories that make Spectrum look like small fry. And from the big houses, not necessarily related to wine but the money makes wine look like a poor man's game...

I made a decision based on some rock solid facts, but this debate about whether to buy or not really isn't the issue, and from whom but is a much deeper seated problem that needs rooting out, to which we attempted to get to in this thread, it seems to be drifting again.

:rolleyes:

[dbailey]

Jono,

I'm surprised you bought. I couldn't stomach a single penny of my money going to an auction house that behaved in such a disgraceful way.

Dan

Not to be rude but if that is the case, you shouldn't buy anything at auction...

We can discuss this at length in person but there are some pretty gruesome stories that make Spectrum look like small fry. And from the big houses, not necessarily related to wine but the money makes wine look like a poor man's game...

I made a decision based on some rock solid facts, but this debate about whether to buy or not really isn't the issue, and from whom but is a much deeper seated problem that needs rooting out, to which we attempted to get to in this thread, it seems to be drifting again.

:rolleyes:

Jono,

I haven't bought at auction for several years now. However, that's due to prices becoming silly rather than a moral objection. If I had been aware of similar behaviour by Christies and Sothebys in London to what Spectrum/Vanquish have just done then I would certainly not have bought from them regardless of prices. I would welcome some examples of them behaving in such a way if they have. However, saying others also behave this way is no excuse for supporting Spectrum in this instance. As to whether it is relevant to thread, I can't see what could be more relevant! The whole point of the thread was to warn people of the potential for fraud and the willingness of Spectrum to ignore that warning. Supporting such an operation by buying anything from them, fake or real, seems to me a very odd thing to do.

Dan

[JonoBeagle]

The issue was the fakes, and there are few morals in any business. ;)

The issue is rooting out fakes, and they are everywhere; the issue was about an attempt by one man to perhaps be selling fakes through this house. Whether the house has repute is irrelevant but they played their cards wrong thus making things worse. I took advantage of an opportunity...

Are you going to stop buying Palmer and Krug because LVMH and Mahler-Basse chose to deal with Spectrum/Vanquish? Other than RB, I don't think anyone in the trade has a bad thing to say about Vanquish.

Things happen, fraud happens, lies take place. I made a choice and I stick by it. I don't think their should be any surprise or issue. As I have continually mentioned, I had knowledge of where the Palmer came from... I took the chance, and got a good price... I have no qualms... And I refuse to be a hypocrite... Do I refuse to use BP because they have moral issues, etc, No! I want petrol and if I get it from them at the right price, why should I pay more elsewhere if I know that my product is 100% correct? Or should I drive around looking for Elf and end up running out and causing problems for others??


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=51.511158,-0.196741

[TomHill]

Sounds like DejaVu all over again:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/arts/ ... rt.html?hp

Tom

[dbailey]

Jono,

The issue became just as much about the "house" as the man trying to sell the wines. You chose to support the house by buying from them (paying them commission in the process) and take advantage of the situation by your own words. To claim that you care about stopping fakes being sold is therefore 100% hypocritical - you were directly supporting an entity where questions and evidence had very clearly been raised about their willingness to continue to sell products that might very well be fake. Indeed, by your logic, you would happily buy from Rudy himself as long as you were certain the wine was real and you could get it at a good price, thereby "taking advantage" of the situation.

Dan

[Eric Ifune]

I buy at auction. I've never bought from Spectrum, but I don't deceive myself that the other auction houses are as pure as newly driven snow. Remember, the wine departments are small relative to the entire auction business. One painting can equal an entire years wine sales. Art is way more dodgier than wine, and then there's the whole antiquities market.

[JonoBeagle]

If that were the case, probably Dan. However, one would never be able to be sure with regards to Rudy and as such, if I knew they were his I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

Don gave his concerns to the house which acted poorly. His concern was that a known fake seller may be selling. There is no 100% fact about it but it is more than probably true and we will never actually know the whole facts because of Spectrums actions in the matter. A carefully worded press statement and thorough checking of the wines conducted could have cleared most of the issue up!

I do not wish to disclose how I found out about the Palmers as that is privileged information, but let me put it this way... They are absolutely clean and people who everyone seems to be assuming are whiter than white consigned them... LVHM also consigned wines, and that is that... Let's all ridicule LVHM because they dealt with a morally bankrupt company.

We all deal with such companies all the time, it is easier to point fingers than to look in the mirror. I make a transaction on a wine on a basis that I deemed fine, when my wife nagged me about what I thought. As I have said, I told her the story and she said how much, and bid up to that amount. It is for drinking, so don't worry I won't even take them to a Palmer vertical... What I have given to Spectrum is pittance in comparison to things I have seen and had in my living room as a child.

If I smell a rat I won't touch it, but if things are good why bother. If it is good, it is good, and if Spectrum don't clean up their ways they will get their moral comeuppance. I don't see how making a business deal is hypocritical based on what we know...

But then again I forgot, I bought so clearly I'm a criminal, as are all the legitimate people who consigned, include the family that owns some of the Chateau's whose wines were in the sale. Based on your diagnosis, they are all morally corrupt and criminal as well. I hardly believe that to be true.

When you wash your shirts, do they always come out whiter than white?? No one is perfect, so you have to take advantage when you can. I have stated my point and I will not keep stating it... I made a choice/risk assessment based on information that I had.

RBS nearly brought the UK economy to its feet... People still use them and their subsidiaries, and can still be outraged at what has happened. I fail to see how because of one man and some potential (not known) compliance anyone who deals with this company is a pariah... Are RBS clients evil because they gave savings to the bank that then blew it?

Businesses are their to make money, and they do what they do to get it. It is us as a society that has fostered that... So how do you stop that? Not buying from them won't make a difference. As for everyone who refrains there are ten who buy! So educate and eradicate the problem, which I have stated a number of times.

Now I really will stop, because I feel like I am going around in circles. Feel free to disagree. I have stated an opinion...

Going to bad practice amongst auction houses, I'll leave that for another time but it involves antiques (my parents business) and fakes (involving compliance)... Businesses sell whatever they think they can get away with. Hell, a very famous museum in Tokyo had an exhibition with the centre piece being a Ghandhara that was fake... I know this because my parents had the real one and sold it to a private collector. So how did Tokyo get a fake? Well someone since must have copied it...

Do you ridicule that museum for buying a fake, no, do you assume that everything else is poor without careful viewing, no. I would guess that the dealers who are probably wry well known, were compliant all the way. I could tell you of even more gruesome stories... So how do you stop it? Go out and educate rather than sitting squabbling over the morality of a company to which we don't know the whole truth about!


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=51.511030,-0.198149

[Chris Doty]

FWIW Jono, I'm not sure your latest post makes much sense to me.

I thought it was reasonable of you to acquire what you believed to be well-priced Palmers of solid provenance for private consumption despite knowing that Spectrum was at best engaged in 'dubious' business practices *IF* your view was 'hey, somebody's gotta drink 'em.' But once you've done that, you've lost all credibility as a crusader for a fair and transparent wine market, right?

Also, museums and banks don't willfully buy from people they know/suspect to be selling fraudulent products (or, if they do, everyone ends up getting fired and sometimes people even go to jail).

[JonoBeagle]

My points re: banks and museums was about morals, not about deceit... They were metaphors.

I also don't think anyone here realises the scale of the problem. These bottles will end up somewhere and potentially even with people of repute... The issue is rooting out fakes, and the fakers and those fakes could be anywhere, whether they be with shady people or not. By taking out our scepticism on one house is to me hypocritical because it is not as if other houses are spotless, and in terms of firing based on things like this, it is very difficult to prove and so rarely do we know the whole truth.

You CAN teach an old dog NEW tricks... It just needs some heavy handed training (legislation).

If you want stories... My parents know someone who committed suicide based actions of others, including a large auction house... PM me if you want details.

And again, by calling into question the whole auction based on Rudy's lots, you also call into question LVMH and Mahler-Basse and anyone else who quite happily consigned wines.

[Chris Doty]

And again, by calling into question the whole auction based on Rudy's lots, you also call into question LVMH and Mahler-Basse and anyone else who quite happily consigned wines.

Well, yes Jono -- and I suspect if you call Nicolas and the other consignors, you will discover he/they knew nothing about Rudy's supposed consignment, or Spectrum's handling of the concerns raised by Don and others, or the very bizarre manner in which the auction was actually conducted (oh, and let's not forget about those irregular T&Cs).

Had Mahler-Besse known all of this before hand (as you knew all of it before bidding) I'm quite sure he would have taken his business elsewhere.

Again, as an individual wine buyer, your conduct is not especially significant. It is in your role as a representative of a broader array of wine merchants / consultants / etc that your actions take on a broader significance.

In the future, I'd advise we ask ourselves only 'What would Don do?'

I just wish the wine media were more interested in this topic. Those guys have lost TONS of credibility with me over their silence.

[Lewis Dawson]

Correct, Chris, LVMH and the other consignors did not know when they consigned who/what they were dealing with, and that is a crucial difference IMO.

[JonoBeagle]

They did however as de Vogue and DRC, have the opportunity to raise their concerns/have things withdrawn, etc and they knew post this thread and chose to let their lots stay in... So??

Palmer knew of the issues... So clearly the MB family would have as well.

Chris, if you think I have any serious repute in the trade, you are very mistaken... I just have access to nice wines so can go to interesting Off-lines and most people in the trade are not that bothered about where I as a member buy from... I do more consulting as oppose to buying and selling.

Anyway, we will just go around in circles. Clearly I'm the bad guy for buying something on a last minute whim because my wife wanted to drink them...

[JonoBeagle]

From Debra Meiburg MWs twitter feed just now...

If you want to know a bit more of the problem. It isn't such an issue that one can blame a small section. It is endemic; education is the key.

@DebraMeiburgMW: A 1* hotel in Dongguan claims its annual consumption of Lafite is 40k btls - or 80% of China's whole quota.

[Magnus Wahlkvist]

Wines at these levels are luxury goods and hardly part of life's essentials. Thus, the question of whether to buy or not should face a different set of variables/preferences when compared to other goods. In short, if you can afford to purchase, you can also afford to walk away.

In any case, one can quantify Jono's "conscience" as the difference between the retail price and the price he paid. On wine-searcher, the Palmer 88 is found at 1,390 IB from Roberson and the Palmer 85 can be had for 1,450 DP from Justerini's. It seems Spectrum's list of "realized prices" includes buyer's premium so Jono may have made a bargain on the 88s but not so on the 85s.

Ultimately though, we can be sure that Mr Brierly, the shining beacon of business integrity that he is, walked away from this with both pockets lined from the Palmer proceeds.

[NickWittman]

Sounds like DejaVu all over again:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/arts/ ... rt.html?hp

Tom

Substitute art for wine, and there you go! An interesting video on the topic . . .

[MarkTa czak]

Vanquish tackles 'authenticity issue'
Friday 24 February 2012
by Adam Lechmere
Vanquish, the London partner of Spectrum Wine Auctions, is trying to establish the authenticity of 21 lots removed from its auction on 8 February.

http://www.decanter.com/news/wine-news/ ... city-issue

[paul hanna]

No further developments in any of this guys???

[billnanson]

Well Jancis is convinced (Tweeted 27 Feb.):

Favourite euphemisms #982: Vanquish/Spectrum 'tackle the authenticity issue'

[Maureen Downey]

This is pretty damn funny:
http://bit.ly/xN2cMo

[Peter Kleban]

This is pretty damn funny:
http://bit.ly/xN2cMo

Yup. All's for the best in this best of all possible world. And Don C. is just some grumpy old neer-do-well.

[Cris Whetstone]

This is pretty damn funny:
http://bit.ly/xN2cMo

Yup. All's for the best in this best of all possible world. And Don C. is just some grumpy old neer-do-well.

Yeah. Hard to hold it down reading all that PR type speak.

"For the record was Rudy Kurniawan a consignor? "
"Spectrum has already publicly stated the he was not."

But what does Vanquish say?


"We have been to many wine auctions in which the bidders are comprised of four people in an empty room and a few anonymous parties on the phone and online. We wanted the auction to be representative of the calibre, glamour and excitement found at modern art auctions. Therefore everything we did was to be of a higher standard than anything done previously in the UK – from the quality of the catalogue and the sheer number of high res images within, to the venue being the beautiful ball room of the Mandarin Oriental hotel in London. We had a catered cocktail hour before the auction with champagne provided by Moet Hennessey and wines by Chateau Palmer. "

IOW, we thought we could make that MAD money like they do in the art world if we just make it all fancy 'n stuff.

[Anthony Hall]

Oh dear, this is petrol on the fire material - what did those "International Relations professors" teach in their class ?

[Anthony Hall]

From the blog about box:



"12x75.com is a Leading and Comical Investment Wine Blog, which revolves around interviews with Big Names in the Wine World."


So I guess I got sucked in to thinking it was real.

[Lewis Dawson]

Very disappointing of the Vanquish guy to give those disingenuious answers about whether Rudy was the seller, and whether Don contacted the auction house before going public. It really amounts to lying to the public, effectively. So we did not learn anything new from that interview, we already knew from events before the auction that they were comfortable with these half-answers that effectively are untruths.

I'd pretty much rule out the possibility that Rudy was not the actual seller, through that agent whose name I have forgotten. If that agent actually represented himself or a seller other than Rudy, that would be said explicitly by Vanquish and Spectrum.

[Chris Blum]

From the blog about box:



"12x75.com is a Leading and Comical Investment Wine Blog, which revolves around interviews with Big Names in the Wine World."


So I guess I got sucked in to thinking it was real.

Weird...While I was reading the 12x75.com blog, my computer started making odd noises....Loud beeping interspersed with the sounds of cows mooing. I didn't realize the detector came preinstalled on my computer

[Tom Blach]

An absolute disgrace. I think it's very sad that the powers that be did not see fit to take any action.

[Freek S u i j v e r]

How about this bit:

He [i.e.: Don] pointed out obvious inconsistencies in bottles and labels that exist due to the inconsistent and varied nature of labelling, bottling, distribution etc of decades past, which are familiar to any experienced wine professional.

Very insulting, esprecially considering the great amount of effort that Don put into educating them (and us). He should have appologised and publically thanked Don...

[NickWittman]

This is pretty damn funny:
http://bit.ly/xN2cMo

I would laugh if it were not so sad Maureen! Hard for me to imagine any open, honest and ethical person/company taking compelling evidence of this magnitude in such a laissez-faire manner. Found this question and answer telling.

QUESTION:
What’s the future for Vanquish Wine and would you ever run another auction in London?

ANSWER:
Its business as usual for Vanquish . . .

[SteveC]

This is pretty damn funny:
http://bit.ly/xN2cMo

I would laugh if it were not so sad Maureen! Hard for me to imagine any open, honest and ethical person/company taking compelling evidence of this magnitude in such a laissez-faire manner. Found this question and answer telling.

QUESTION:
What’s the future for Vanquish Wine and would you ever run another auction in London?

ANSWER:
Its business as usual for Vanquish . . .

Guys... read the tag line of the site. This is a spoof

[Mike During]

"What’s your personal favourite drink after a long day at work?

Casa Dragones Tequila on the rocks with some fresh lime."

and they are in the wine business.

[NickWittman]

Awwwww, it would have been so much more fun it if was real!

Fiction often mirrors reality . . .

[Chris Blum]

Guys... read the tag line of the site. This is a spoof

Shouldn't it be funny then?