What's your approach to posting TNs here?

[John Morris]

So your telling me that one varietal, Burgundy,is posted on more often than all American varietals together.I think you kind of made my point didn't you?I'm not trying to start a war,the question was asked and I answered honestly.

In addition to the TNs on Californian wines, there are a LOT of threads on mailing list offerings, shipping dates, and so on, for which there are no corresponding European threads.

As for non-US wines, there's very little here on Bordeaux, or Spain, or Germany beyond Donnhoff, or even Tuscany. So, yes, there are a lot of Burgundy lovers here, but it's not like this is an anti-California forum. It's just spotty, reflecting the community's preferences.

[Matt Latuchie]

i do enjoy posting Loire/Jura/Burgundy notes on ebob though...

Tooch -

Post your Loire notes here, especially Chinon and Saumur! I do not recall ebob having that much action on Loire reds when I played over there, pre-wall.

and Vouvray and Sancerre, please!

i certainly try posting all my Loire/jura/burgundy notes here too...but over on ebob talking about anything other than CdP/BDX/Cali Syrah/Cali Cab gets weird looks, so it's fun to stir the pot a bit.

[Sherri Shapiro]

I would love to read more tasting notes. Admittedly, I don't post them but that's because of a bad experience back on the WS board years ago when I got flamed for posting that I enjoyed a wine despite it being too tannic.

[Brian Tuite]

...
TNs are subjective as we all have different palates anyhow so the value is based solely on whether your palate agrees with mine or not....

I disagree with this. If you and I have different palate preferences, but I am aware of where those differences lie *and* you have a consistent palate, then your notes would be helpful to me, even though our palates wouldn't necessarily "agree."

You know, I didn't look at it that way. Well put!

[A.Gillette (Online)]

posted much more on eBob and upset to lose them--some really nice Burg visit stories and notes. Hard now to mount the energy to post--and haven't been drinking as much interesting stuff.
alan

Alan -
I hope you will post more. The burgundy lovers on the board really want to hear what you have to say.
A

[A.Gillette (Online)]

I tend to post notes on every wine I drink provided that I can put my recollections down within a period of time that I believe they are still fresh. I have no illusions about my tasting notes being particularly good or useful to others, but I hope that they sometimes provide a useful frame of reference or a viewpoint that can start an interesting debate or bring out a viewpoint that is different than mine. Writing notes is, for me, incredibly difficult. But I think that if I continue to try, I will be rewarded many years from now when I look back at this board. I think of the postings by Alan Weinberg, Jeremy Holmes, Robert Thornton and Stuart Niemtzow and how valuable they have been to my exploration of burgundy and I hope that over time I can achieve a similar level of expertise. There is a lot of work that goes into having that level of expertise and I feel posting notes and trying to respond to comments on them will help me get there.
A

[Glenn L e v i n e]

I could give a shit whether folks post in follow-up to a tasting note I write or flame me while disagreeing. Loads of my notes have but one post, in others loads of folks disagree with my observations and impressions but who cares? I have considerable real life problems that take my attentions, as I'm sure others do as well.

What I would like is for the mods to streamline all the vintage-specific notes as the search function is too often ignored.

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

I would love to read more tasting notes. Admittedly, I don't post them but that's because of a bad experience back on the WS board years ago when I got flamed for posting that I enjoyed a wine despite it being too tannic.

Please post your notes, Sherri! Don't mind the fools.

[craig vanderah]

Mark, I wouldn't be on CT without your help. Surely you can figure out how to post a TN from CT to here?

Craig;

Funny you should post this today as last night I actually tried to post a TN from CT to WB and couldn't figure out how to do it. I think I've done it before to WB, I know I did to ebob. I know you do it (or I think you do). I had a great 2007 Turley Dusi and 03 Le Cadeau the other day that I was going to post about whether people here like domestic or not .

[craig vanderah]

Regardless of posting style, its really helpful if the poster tells us how long he/she opened the wine for and the decant if done.

[Mark Alcorn]

Mark, I wouldn't be on CT without your help. Surely you can figure out how to post a TN from CT to here?

Craig;

Funny you should post this today as last night I actually tried to post a TN from CT to WB and couldn't figure out how to do it. I think I've done it before to WB, I know I did to ebob. I know you do it (or I think you do). I had a great 2007 Turley Dusi and 03 Le Cadeau the other day that I was going to post about whether people here like domestic or not .

Yes, I couldn't figure it out. It was as simple as I remember once Brian Tuite (sp?) reminded me. Both Alex and you have good points about the value of the vast majority of the member's notes. We can all contribute something be it decanting time, not ready to drink, etc.... We can't all be Brian Tockman and Steve Sigmond .

[Brian Tuite]

We can't all be Brian Tockman and Steve Sigmond .

Who?

[GregT]

Sherri - what Brian said. Post away.

As far as posting on every wine - it's just not possible. If I were to drink a few hundred wines a year, maybe, but if it's for business, I'm not posting and if it's out at a dinner, it ruins the experience and if it's at home, maybe that's OK.

Now, if I were at a formal dinner with great wines,I will be very low key about any note taking I do, especially if non wine spouses are present, I mean I wouldn't want them to think I was a dick or anything.........

They seem to think that about me no matter what I do!

BTW - you available in Dec? We were going to do a Syrah/Cab blending. I have a few of both.

[Mark Alcorn]

We can't all be Brian Tockman and Steve Sigmond .

Who?

Craig and I are in the same general tasting group in the Twin Cities. We have two unusually prolific and talented TN writers in the general group -- Steve and Brian (although Dave Dalluge is great also).

[Anthony Lombardi]

It seems we have an onslaught of TN's since this thread came around. Keep them coming!

[craig vanderah]

Sadly Steve Sigmond and Dave Dalluge don't seem to post here or even on CT much anymore. Both of those guys are extremely reliable scribes with excellent palates.

We can't all be Brian Tockman and Steve Sigmond .

Who?

Craig and I are in the same general tasting group in the Twin Cities. We have two unusually prolific and talented TN writers in the general group -- Steve and Brian (although Dave Dalluge is great also).

[Neal.Mollen]

I have a different view (shocking I know).

I can glean almost nothing of use from the majority of tasting notes posted here or elsewhere. In many (but not all) instances, I can learn if the poster liked the wine and how much. This might be of some value to me if I know the poster and can predict with reasonable accuracy how our preferences will align. Since I don't know most of you, that doesn't happen often (and almost never happens on crowd-sourced non-real-names sites). The fact that you liked a wine a lot in most instances won't tell me very much about whether I will.

This is especially true if the note falls into one of two categories: (a) the comparator note or (b) thesaurus note. The author of the comprator note says "this is just like the 1973 XYZ wine I had at Moe's house." Fine and useful for him, I suppose, but using a reference to a second wine as a means of evaluating the first just doubles down on the problems identified above.

The thesaurus note is the one that describes the scent of a wine as "redolent of wild Andalusian bilberries, from a south-facing branch, picked at high noon on a cloudy day." I have no f*ck idea what this means. And even if you read professional notes on the same wine, tasted at the same event or time, you will get preposterously varied -- even mutually exclusive -- notes, even where it is apparent that the reviewer both liked (or hated) the wine.

The most I can wring from most notes is (a) that the writer thought the wine was good or bad (as noted above) and (b) whether the wine is closed down tight and completely unyielding (a state that most of us can describe in ways that transcend individual palates) or is over the hill -- the "how's it drinking now" question. This is useful, and I do search through notes here occasionally, but not fool proof by any means

Why don't I post notes of my own? Because I am quite certain my notes would be no more helpful (and maybe much less so) to others than the notes described above are to me. I will sometimes post a note because the wine is unusual for some reason (age of the wine e.g.), because I have had a recently-released wine on which others might be making purchase decisions, or because I was just blown away by something.

I also drink wine exclusively for pleasure, and taking notes while I do is mutually exclusive with enjoyment

This post is longer than all the "notes" I have posted here in the last year!

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

Neal,
Are you operating under the assumption that the only valid or worthwhile reason to post TN's to a wine discussion forum is to "help" others?

[D@v!d P@rt@!n]

"What's your approach to posting TNs here?"

I should do it more often and I really appreciate the efforts of those who do.

Thank you!

[Bill Klapp]

Exhibit A in the case against tasting notes:

"The 2001 Vina Tondonia Reserva is bridled with a lovely nose of decayed red fruit, fireside hearth, a touch of mulberry and small red cherry. The palate is medium-bodied with fine tannins, crisp red fruits (wild strawberry and cranberry) with a sharp, vibrant, tense, tannic finish that has immense precision. There is a slight saline note lingering in the mouth after the wine has (regretfully) departed. Drink now-2030+"

This was written by a moderately effete, self-important Brit who shall remain nameless (along with his employer), but it demonstrates in a very few words a quite remarkable ignorance of the English language and its usage. We begin with a wine that is "bridled" by its "lovely nose". A bridle is essentially a control and guidance mechanism for a horse or similar beast. We all understand the concept of "restrained" in a wine's nose, but this note suggests that the wine is being restrained by its nose. Hardly seems possible, eh? "Decayed red fruit" is another nice touch. "Decayed" is a euphemism for "rotten". Is a wine that reeks of rotten red fruit likely to merit 95 points? Apparently so, in this case. Since "hearth" means either a fireplace or the floor of a fireplace, WTF is "fireside hearth" supposed to mean? And "small red cherry" conveys WHAT, exactly? Does this fool expect us to believe that he can discern a difference between a small red cherry and a MEDIUM red cherry? And doesn't it seem that maybe the designation of SWEET red cherry or SOUR red cherry is required to communicate anything, and, if the cherry is sour and the urge to be effete and obtuse is unbridled in the author, perhaps even adding the specification of a distinctively flavored type of small red cherry like, say, the French griotte or the Italian visciole might convey something to at least a few people, even if only in rural Europe? Likewise, the notion that anything tastes of wild strawberries and cranberries is mindless bullshitting for its own sake. I have wild strawberries growing in my yard, and I can assure you that eating ONE cranberry will instantly destroy your ability to detect the aroma or flavor of anything as delicate as a wild strawberry, so the two cannot possibly coexist in a taste of wine. And lastly, I struggle to understand the distinction to be made between "precision" and "immense precision". It seems to me that a finish already described as "sharp", "vibrant", "tense" and "tannic" (the last one of the few descriptors in the above tasting note that actually conveys any meaning) could almost be assumed to possess "precision", but are we to understand that, rather than "precision" simply being the opposite of "imprecise", "murky" or "muddled", that there are many DEGREES of precision to wine finishes? And if so, does "immense" convey anything at all? (To be fair, I concede that "slight saline note" actually communicates something generally understandable. Just too little, too late.)

My point is this: Neal Martin (not his real name) and the other tasting-note regurgitators do not carefully consider beforehand, much less re-read and edit, the garbage that they crank out endlessly. That being the case, why would anyone want to read such drivel, substitute uncredentialed palates that are dulled and ultimately burnt out by tasting 10,000+ wines a year for their own, and then base buying decisions on it? Don't bother to answer...that was a rhetorical question!

[David M. Bueker]

As for non-US wines, there's very little here on Bordeaux, or Spain, or Germany beyond Donnhoff, or even Tuscany. So, yes, there are a lot of Burgundy lovers here, but it's not like this is an anti-California forum. It's just spotty, reflecting the community's preferences.

I wrote a note on a Boxler and a Christoffel Riesling (two very delicious wines) and it sank like a stone.

[Robert Alfert, Jr. (Online)]

As for non-US wines, there's very little here on Bordeaux, or Spain, or Germany beyond Donnhoff, or even Tuscany. So, yes, there are a lot of Burgundy lovers here, but it's not like this is an anti-California forum. It's just spotty, reflecting the community's preferences.

I wrote a note on a Boxler and a Christoffel Riesling (two very delicious wines) and it sank like a stone.

By comparison, though, it seems as if the Bordeaux threads have increased. After seeing John's post, I counted 6 Bordeaux threads on the first page. I rarely if ever open a riesling or burgundy thread (outside my wheelhouse and experience), but find much on this forum to enjoy.

To Bill's point, I cannot argue with your dissection of that note, but respectfully, seeing that sort of laceration is likely what causes many not to post notes out of self-consciousness. I'm sure my tasting notes suck rotten eggs, but in my humble opinion, notes are the core of a wine forum. So I try. Good, bad or ugly, I have gotten a lot of information from notes, especially from those whose notes and palates seem to align more with mine.

[Neal.Mollen]

Neal,
Are you operating under the assumption that the only valid or worthwhile reason to post TN's to a wine discussion forum is to "help" others?

Um, yeah. If you are not posting it for others, why put it on a public resource? I know the wines in my cellar pretty well.

[Peter Chiu]

posted much more on eBob and upset to lose them--some really nice Burg visit stories and notes. Hard now to mount the energy to post--and haven't been drinking as much interesting stuff.
alan

Alan -
I hope you will post more. The burgundy lovers on the board really want to hear what you have to say.
A

Alex.....I could help but : .

Alan nearly got on the OtherB because his TNs were too short.

For example, one wow or two wows...

[Peter Chiu]

I voted in the survey. I seldom write TNs because

(1) I am not good at it and but

(2) Wines themselves vary with time and conditions of tasting, and that wine tasting is an intrinsically subjective process in any case.

That being said....I love to read other TNs regarding Burgundy wines.

[J a y H a c k]

I try to write notes on most of what I drink, but I fail, and thus write notes on maybe one out of every three or four wines. I do that on Cellartracker and then post here with two or three extra clicks. If people want to read them, they can. If not, they can skip them. I once got a PM criticizing me for posting notes on every wine I wrote about instead of just the good ones. I suggested to the writer that if he did not want to read my notes, he could choose not to open them. He responded in a manner that could opnly be described as very insulting and then said I was arrogant. I told him that I was definitely arrogant, but that he was an a$$hole, and I preferred to be arrogant. I think he soon disappeared from the Board, but that's how I feel about people who do not like other people to post notes. I am not, however, bothered by people who necver post notes and only steal the brilliance of my own creations. To each his or her own.

By the way - I have not read any of the posts in this thread, but noticed Mr. Stewart's popcorn gif, so there must be a war going on. No one should take this message as a personal attack because I haven't even read what you wrote.

[AndrewH]

(2) Wines themselves vary with time and conditions of tasting, and that wine tasting is an intrinsically subjective process in any case.

Variation over time is an important reason for TNs, though. If a wine is drinking well at a given moment, that's a useful piece of knowledge (although perhaps less useful without knowledge of cellaring conditions, etc.)

[J a y H a c k]

...
TNs are subjective as we all have different palates anyhow so the value is based solely on whether your palate agrees with mine or not....

I disagree with this. If you and I have different palate preferences, but I am aware of where those differences lie *and* you have a consistent palate, then your notes would be helpful to me, even though our palates wouldn't necessarily "agree."

You know, I didn't look at it that way. Well put!

I learn a lot from Levenberg's notes. We've shared wines together and he hates a lot of things I like, so if he gives a wine 76 points, I may have to look at it carerfully as something I may enjoy. Then again, there's this note that I wrote early this year:

• 2010 Gaia Estate Assyrtiko Thalassitis - Greece, Aegean, Santorini (1/20/2012)
  It's always comforting to check the wine list at a new restaurant with a massive collection of Greek wine, do a searh for high rated Greek wines on Cellartracker, and find a detailed review giving one of the bottles on the list 94 points and a very nice description. Even when it was written by Keith Levenberg. Although Keith's tastes and mine are not exactly the same - he has this thing about aging wines in new oak barrels, which he defines as barrels produced after the Civil War - I've got to agree with him on this one. Without a doubt the best Greek wine I have tasted. Absolutely bone dry with "bracing" acidity, minerals, and a very nice fruit melange. Mainly citrus fruits with a tiny bit of tropical fruit (papaya crossed with pineapple), and maybe a touch of Granny Smith. The ABV was 13% and I did not find the alcohol at all intrusive and barely noticed it. My wife and son both loved it. My son, who normally describes white wine as fruit juice with only half the flavor, said this was one of the best white wines he had ever had and commented that the note on the label, "dry" white wine, was certainly accurate.
  
  The restaurant, by the way, is Kefi on the upper west side in Manhattan, Columbus Avenue between 85th and 84th. Food was great. The manager came over and commented about the excellent wine we had chosen - so I told him about the Levenberg review. The wine list was all Greek and very extensive. You can look at the list on their web site if you are interested. (92 pts.)

Posted from CellarTracker

[mike pobega]

.....I once got a PM criticizing me for posting notes on every wine I wrote about instead of just the good ones. I suggested to the writer that if he did not want to read my notes, he could choose not to open them. He responded in a manner that could opnly be described as very insulting and then said I was arrogant. I told him that I was definitely arrogant, but that he was an a$$hole, and I preferred to be arrogant. I think he soon disappeared from the Board, .......

10-12 more exchanges like that and this board will show some improvement.
I will forward you a list........

[A.Gillette (Online)]

posted much more on eBob and upset to lose them--some really nice Burg visit stories and notes. Hard now to mount the energy to post--and haven't been drinking as much interesting stuff.
alan

Alan -
I hope you will post more. The burgundy lovers on the board really want to hear what you have to say.
A

Alex.....I could help but : .

Alan nearly got on the OtherB because his TNs were too short.

For example, one wow or two wows...

Peter -
I was on the parker board as well. Alan may have occasionally posted a note like that. But those posts were few and far between compared to the numerous incredibly and insightful things that Alan posted.
A

[Peter Chiu]

(2) Wines themselves vary with time and conditions of tasting, and that wine tasting is an intrinsically subjective process in any case.

Variation over time is an important reason for TNs, though. If a wine is drinking well at a given moment, that's a useful piece of knowledge (although perhaps less useful without knowledge of cellaring conditions, etc.)

Totally agree. One of reasons why I love to read TNs.....

[TomHill]

Why don't I post notes of my own? Because I am quite certain my notes would be no more helpful (and maybe much less so) to others than the notes described above are to me. I will sometimes post a note because the wine is unusual for some reason (age of the wine e.g.), because I have had a recently-released wine on which others might be making purchase decisions, or because I was just blown away by something.
I also drink wine exclusively for pleasure, and taking notes while I do is mutually exclusive with enjoyment

Hmmm......I guess I don't find taking a TN detracts from my enjoyment, Neal. I like to think the enjoyment of a wine has
two components. The sensual pleasure and the intellectual pleasure. Some wines (like the JCCllrs Misc.Stuff last night)
just offer up sensual pleasure. For others, the wine makes me think and the intellectual pleasure is equally, or more so, important.
And being able to discuss the wine with someone, either in person or on a wine board, is an important part of my enjoyment
of a wine.
I find many of the TN's here quite useful. I don't particularly care if my palate "aligns" w/ the poster or not. I'm just interested in
their general take on the wine, especially if it's one I have are may be wanting to taste. If iit's a NapaVlly Cab, a RedBdx, a RedBurg..
then I have very little interest since I've pretty much blown off those wines. But iif it's a SavoieMondeuse, a Calif Trosseau, a
Slovene Refosk....than I'm all ears...as those are the wines that excite me.
"Pleasure"...yes...by all means. But the "intellectual" is also, to me, as important.
Tom

[Peter Chiu]

Peter -
I was on the parker board as well. Alan may have occasionally posted a note like that. But those posts were few and far between compared to the numerous incredibly and insightful things that Alan posted.
AAlex Gillette.

Alex...thanks for reply. I was just pulling Alan's leg.

I was really shocked when I saw what Mark ( of the OtherB ) made his comments of possible agaianst Alan.

But those posts were few and far between compared to the numerous incredibly and insightful things that Alan posted

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

Exhibit A in the case against tasting notes:

"The 2001 Vina Tondonia Reserva is bridled with a lovely nose of decayed red fruit, fireside hearth, a touch of mulberry and small red cherry. The palate is medium-bodied with fine tannins, crisp red fruits (wild strawberry and cranberry) with a sharp, vibrant, tense, tannic finish that has immense precision. There is a slight saline note lingering in the mouth after the wine has (regretfully) departed. Drink now-2030+"

This was written by a moderately effete, self-important Brit who shall remain nameless (along with his employer), but it demonstrates in a very few words a quite remarkable ignorance of the English language and its usage. We begin with a wine that is "bridled" by its "lovely nose". A bridle is essentially a control and guidance mechanism for a horse or similar beast. We all understand the concept of "restrained" in a wine's nose, but this note suggests that the wine is being restrained by its nose. Hardly seems possible, eh? "Decayed red fruit" is another nice touch. "Decayed" is a euphemism for "rotten". Is a wine that reeks of rotten red fruit likely to merit 95 points? Apparently so, in this case. Since "hearth" means either a fireplace or the floor of a fireplace, WTF is "fireside hearth" supposed to mean? And "small red cherry" conveys WHAT, exactly? Does this fool expect us to believe that he can discern a difference between a small red cherry and a MEDIUM red cherry? And doesn't it seem that maybe the designation of SWEET red cherry or SOUR red cherry is required to communicate anything, and, if the cherry is sour and the urge to be effete and obtuse is unbridled in the author, perhaps even adding the specification of a distinctively flavored type of small red cherry like, say, the French griotte or the Italian visciole might convey something to at least a few people, even if only in rural Europe? Likewise, the notion that anything tastes of wild strawberries and cranberries is mindless bullshitting for its own sake. I have wild strawberries growing in my yard, and I can assure you that eating ONE cranberry will instantly destroy your ability to detect the aroma or flavor of anything as delicate as a wild strawberry, so the two cannot possibly coexist in a taste of wine. And lastly, I struggle to understand the distinction to be made between "precision" and "immense precision". It seems to me that a finish already described as "sharp", "vibrant", "tense" and "tannic" (the last one of the few descriptors in the above tasting note that actually conveys any meaning) could almost be assumed to possess "precision", but are we to understand that, rather than "precision" simply being the opposite of "imprecise", "murky" or "muddled", that there are many DEGREES of precision to wine finishes? And if so, does "immense" convey anything at all? (To be fair, I concede that "slight saline note" actually communicates something generally understandable. Just too little, too late.)

My point is this: Neal Martin (not his real name) and the other tasting-note regurgitators do not carefully consider beforehand, much less re-read and edit, the garbage that they crank out endlessly. That being the case, why would anyone want to read such drivel, substitute uncredentialed palates that are dulled and ultimately burnt out by tasting 10,000+ wines a year for their own, and then base buying decisions on it? Don't bother to answer...that was a rhetorical question!

Bill,

While the English major part of me appreciates your dedication to semantics and syntax, the TN-posting part of me feels that your post could rightfully be considered Exhibit B against posting TN's; some folks are afraid that their TN will be dissected, scrutinized part-by-dissected-part, and then criticized --- exactly as you have done here (with some personal attacks thrown in for good measure). Why do that? It's simply mean-spirited.

Are all TN's equal? IMO, "No; they are not." That said, I appreciate each and every tasting note that *anyone* writes and posts in good faith. If they're not helpful to you -- fine, there's nothing wrong with that. If you don't like reading them -- fine, there's nothing wrong with that, either; simply don't read them. I fail to see the point in harshly criticizing them, however. One can always ask the author of the TN questions, if clarification is sought.

[Brian G r a f s t r o m]

Neal,
Are you operating under the assumption that the only valid or worthwhile reason to post TN's to a wine discussion forum is to "help" others?

Um, yeah. If you are not posting it for others, why put it on a public resource?

As a catalyst for conversation. For interesting reading (I know I know --- that might seem absurd, but some folks (I'm one of them) actually find reading tastings notes to be interesting). If anybody actually finds them "helpful," that's just an added bonus.