Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #751  Postby James Koch » July 23rd 2009, 2:50pm

Chuck Miller wrote:Personally, I found this process to be pretty idiotic, and totally at odds with the professed "when possible, blind and in peer groups" stated method. The WA Wine Commission could have easily put all the cabs together blind, etc., but that's not what JM requested. On the other hand, he did taste alone without importers/distributors/wineries present, and he did work hard at tasting while he was there, 8 hours a day with limited breaks (not that that doesn't present it's own set of issues).


Nothing unusual about that! When you travel from winery to winery to taste you use EXACTLY the same approach. How else would you be able to establish a 'house style', 'quality pattern or lack of it', and many other factors ABOUT a producer? Any true wine professional can jump from red to white to dry to sweet and back. Sorry, that's what sets 'wine drinkers' apart from 'wine professionals'. Of course, not everyone in this business is capable of doing this. But, yes, many have learned this by tasting wines this way over decades. If you line up all Chardonnays, Cabernets, etc. you are 'comparing' wines to find 'a winner'. Professional wine writers are not tasting wines to find a 'best of show' - that's done at "state fairs" and has nothing to do with reviewing wines or a producer's portfolio.

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #752  Postby Daniel Posner » July 23rd 2009, 3:01pm

James Koch wrote:
Chuck Miller wrote:Personally, I found this process to be pretty idiotic, and totally at odds with the professed "when possible, blind and in peer groups" stated method. The WA Wine Commission could have easily put all the cabs together blind, etc., but that's not what JM requested. On the other hand, he did taste alone without importers/distributors/wineries present, and he did work hard at tasting while he was there, 8 hours a day with limited breaks (not that that doesn't present it's own set of issues).


Nothing unusual about that! When you travel from winery to winery to taste you use EXACTLY the same approach. How else would you be able to establish a 'house style', 'quality pattern or lack of it', and many other factors ABOUT a producer? Any true wine professional can jump from red to white to dry to sweet and back. Sorry, that's what sets 'wine drinkers' apart from 'wine professionals'. Of course, not everyone in this business is capable of doing this. But, yes, many have learned this by tasting wines this way over decades. If you line up all Chardonnays, Cabernets, etc. you are 'comparing' wines to find 'a winner'. Professional wine writers are not tasting wines to find a 'best of show' - that's done at "state fairs" and has nothing to do with reviewing wines or a producer's portfolio.


James

This is just silly.

When you visit a winery, you also get back into your car, regroup your thoughts and have a sip of water. Then, after 15 minutes, at a minimum (walking to car, get incar, drive to next winery, get out, do the meet and greet)...you taste again...15 minutes is probably more like 45 minutes.

Is Jay Miller tasting 200 wines per day at wineries he is visiting? Hardly.

It is humanly impossible to recalibrate your taste buds like that. But when you spend just 30 seconds with a wine and take down zero meaningful tasting notes, what difference does it make, right?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #753  Postby James Koch » July 23rd 2009, 3:16pm

Daniel Posner wrote:
James Koch wrote:
Chuck Miller wrote:Personally, I found this process to be pretty idiotic, and totally at odds with the professed "when possible, blind and in peer groups" stated method. The WA Wine Commission could have easily put all the cabs together blind, etc., but that's not what JM requested. On the other hand, he did taste alone without importers/distributors/wineries present, and he did work hard at tasting while he was there, 8 hours a day with limited breaks (not that that doesn't present it's own set of issues).


Nothing unusual about that! When you travel from winery to winery to taste you use EXACTLY the same approach. How else would you be able to establish a 'house style', 'quality pattern or lack of it', and many other factors ABOUT a producer? Any true wine professional can jump from red to white to dry to sweet and back. Sorry, that's what sets 'wine drinkers' apart from 'wine professionals'. Of course, not everyone in this business is capable of doing this. But, yes, many have learned this by tasting wines this way over decades. If you line up all Chardonnays, Cabernets, etc. you are 'comparing' wines to find 'a winner'. Professional wine writers are not tasting wines to find a 'best of show' - that's done at "state fairs" and has nothing to do with reviewing wines or a producer's portfolio.


James

This is just silly.

When you visit a winery, you also get back into your car, regroup your thoughts and have a sip of water. Then, after 15 minutes, at a minimum (walking to car, get incar, drive to next winery, get out, do the meet and greet)...you taste again...15 minutes is probably more like 45 minutes.

Is Jay Miller tasting 200 wines per day at wineries he is visiting? Hardly.

It is humanly impossible to recalibrate your taste buds like that. But when you spend just 30 seconds with a wine and take down zero meaningful tasting notes, what difference does it make, right?


I guess we disagree. There's no other way to discover the 'wine style' of a producer. Do you really believe that TRUE wine professionals visiting wine shows, such as VinExpo or Vinitaly drink only "Vermentinos" on day one and "Passitos" on day two. Nonsense. We easily taste 200 wines per day at Vinitaly and I can guarantee you that I can still find those wines that would never make it into our portfolio.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #754  Postby Daniel Posner » July 23rd 2009, 3:22pm

James

Do you believe that wine trade shows is the best way to taste the wines?

I have been to VinItaly, and numerous trade shows here in NY. I have also tasted at the UGC tastings in Bordeaux a few times. I even tasted about 80 wines with Nicolas Potel in his cellars once.

To taste Riesling, SB, PN, Merlot, Cab, Syrah, rinse and repeat and do that with 50 different producers in an 8 hour period and cover 200 wines is a disservice to

1) Yourself as a taster
2) Your paying subscribers
3) The Wine World

No good comes out of tasting that way. You get to know the winemaker's style? Really? in 2 minutes? Tasting 6 wines?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #755  Postby Cris Whetstone » July 23rd 2009, 3:30pm

I think there is a distinction to be made between tasting a lot of wines and deciding on purchasing or not and scoring and writing full tasting notes in that environment. Scores and full tasting notes from one or two ounce sips done rapidly are are silly IMNSHO and that's before I get to how silly scores are but that's another thread.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #756  Postby Chuck Miller » July 23rd 2009, 3:55pm

José F. Rodríguez wrote:Chuck:

Do you recall the total amount of wines Miller tasted? How many days he took?

Thanks in advance,
José


Jose, he was here (at SWS) for two days as part of an approximately week long visit to the state. He also spent a couple days in Walla Walla, where there enough wineries in a relatively small area to justify the time to get there. I don't know how many wines were tasted, but he tasted somewhat slowly for the number of wines to be tasted. Again, he tasted alphabetically, and after Day One I think he was only to wineries starting with 'E', but it might have been 'G'. Nonetheless, at the rate he was going, he could not get thru the wines that were to be tried, and I believe that the remaining wines were to be shipped to him for additional tastings at a future date. I would guess from the number of opened btls that were taken from here that he tasted well over 150 wines in the 2 days, could have been many more. I wasn't paying very close attention.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #757  Postby James Sanders » July 23rd 2009, 4:36pm

Chuck Miller wrote:I know this has been mentioned in the past in articles, and probably by other posters. Here's JM's preferred methodology at tastings, as witnessed personally when he was tasting in my lounge at Seattle Wine Storage a few months ago: Not blind, not peer group. He asks to taste by producer, and in this case, when the samples were lined up by the WA Wine Commission folks (who solicited the samples being sent in by the wineries to taste), he did them alphabetically. In other words, one winery might have anywhere from a couple to maybe a half-dozen or more wines submitted. He would then taste whites and reds (in many cases), then go on to the next winery and taste their whtes then reds. He could have a producer flight that ranged from a riesling to a sauv blanc to a chard, then pinot noir, merlot, cab sauv and syrah.

Personally, I found this process to be pretty idiotic, and totally at odds with the professed "when possible, blind and in peer groups" stated method. The WA Wine Commission could have easily put all the cabs together blind, etc., but that's not what JM requested.

On the other hand, he did taste alone without importers/distributors/wineries present, and he did work hard at tasting while he was there, 8 hours a day with limited breaks (not that that doesn't present it's own set of issues).


I don't care how "gifted" your palate, if this is how wine is tasted for review, you might as well throw darts at a board. And that's true no matter how the order is shuffled. Not that I expect much different from any other "professional" reviewer.

Give me a dozen enthusiastic amateurs reporting their impressions from real life conditions over the pros any day. Or in other words, Cellartracker.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #758  Postby Todd F r e n c h » July 23rd 2009, 4:40pm

James Sanders wrote:Give me a dozen enthusiastic amateurs reporting their impressions from real life conditions over the pros any day. Or in other words, Cellartracker.

And WineBerserkers!
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #759  Postby Daniel Posner » July 23rd 2009, 7:13pm

Yeah, Wineberserkers! flirtysmile
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #760  Postby José F. Rodríguez » July 23rd 2009, 8:51pm

This saga continues. The latest twist is that A. Kohn's bottle is 20,081 of 21,000.

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/sho ... ost2703048

This does not look well at all.

In the meantime, Parker's ultimatum of a satisfactory explanation from the importer fell into deaf ears. Talk about taking it to the next level!

José
Last edited by José F. Rodríguez on July 23rd 2009, 9:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #761  Postby Daniel Posner » July 23rd 2009, 8:56pm

The magical third lot that the "winemaker" presented here...wow!

Maybe Robert Parker granted Well Oiled Wine Co an extension to come up with a better story?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #762  Postby Jeff Cassetta » July 23rd 2009, 9:00pm

José F. Rodríguez wrote:This saga continues. The latest twist is that A. Kohn's bottle is 20,081 of 20,000.

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/sho ... ost2703048

This does not look well at all.

In the meantime, Parker's ultimatum of a satisfactory explanation from the importer fell into deaf ears. Talk about taking it to the next level!

José


He posted that it was of 21,000. This was of the supposedly "last" batch that was only supposed to be 3,600 bottles. My money is on each batch having its own set of #'s and that there were 61,000 produced...at least.

Has anyone posted that they had some good juice that wasn't a sample?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #763  Postby José F. Rodríguez » July 23rd 2009, 9:14pm

Jeff Cassetta wrote:
José F. Rodríguez wrote:This saga continues. The latest twist is that A. Kohn's bottle is 20,081 of 20,000.

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/sho ... ost2703048

This does not look well at all.

In the meantime, Parker's ultimatum of a satisfactory explanation from the importer fell into deaf ears. Talk about taking it to the next level!

José


He posted that it was of 21,000. This was of the supposedly "last" batch that was only supposed to be 3,600 bottles. My money is on each batch having its own set of #'s and that there were 61,000 produced...at least.

Has anyone posted that they had some good juice that wasn't a sample?



Jeff:

According to the winemaker, there was another 3,600 bottles besides the original 20,000 bottle run sent to the US. After the success from the WA score, they sent 1050 bottles from that 3,600 lot to the US.

If the math is right that tallies for a 21,050 bottle run for the US, which does not agree with the 20,000 bottle production stated on Well Oiled Wine Co website or the 16,000 bottle run stated on a label from their website.

Any way I look at this it smells like a rat.

SALUDos,
José
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #764  Postby José F. Rodríguez » July 23rd 2009, 9:19pm

Jeff Cassetta wrote:
José F. Rodríguez wrote:This saga continues. The latest twist is that A. Kohn's bottle is 20,081 of 20,000.

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/sho ... ost2703048

This does not look well at all.

In the meantime, Parker's ultimatum of a satisfactory explanation from the importer fell into deaf ears. Talk about taking it to the next level!

José


He posted that it was of 21,000. This was of the supposedly "last" batch that was only supposed to be 3,600 bottles. My money is on each batch having its own set of #'s and that there were 61,000 produced...at least.

Has anyone posted that they had some good juice that wasn't a sample?


Jeff:

I edited my post to reflect 21,000 instead of 20,000 bottles.

SALUDos,
José
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #765  Postby WKChoy » July 23rd 2009, 11:17pm

Quite interesting that 90+% of production went to the US. Check Wine-Searcher, nothing listed outside North America.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #766  Postby bvm winemaker » July 24th 2009, 3:40am

With the sole intention of informing customers regarding the progress of our investigations regarding what may have occurred to Sierra Carche 2005, we can add to our communication of 21st July:

1. We have detected an error in the management of our warehouse and order dispatch which shows that when taking unlabelled wine from the section where our Reserva and special selection wines age in bottle, which resulted in a mistake being made with the dispatch of 2400 bottles which relates to lot code 7033 which was not Sierra Carche but rather a special selection of the winery. We have immediately put in procedures in our operating system to ensure that such a mistake could not reoccur.
The wine we erroneously shipped as lot 7033 of Sierra Carche was very well received, it was not the wine which Mr. Jay Miller pronounced “undrinkable” nor has it been the subject of customer complaints
2. We have sent to a prestigious and well known Barcelona laboratory samples from all three lots ( 7033, 8113 and 8114 ). This laboratory is reputed for its extreme rigor and reliability. This laboratory will carry out microbiological tests paying special attention to the detection of bacterial moulds and yeasts, lactic and acetic bacteria, free SO2 and volatile acidity. As soon as we know the results, we will publish them without delay. We are of the opinion that they are technically correct but that personal and ratings evaluations are a subjective matter.

3. We still today have not received samples from consumers which are considered defective by consumers which we wish to have similarly analyzed as well as organaleptically.

4. Finally we wish to reiterate our deep concern and to apologize for this error whose damage is most significant for the small organization of growers and winemakers that we are but we do accept total responsibility for the matter and accept returns. Correspondence regarding such should be made to : screturns2005@yahoo.com
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #767  Postby Paul Jaouen » July 24th 2009, 5:23am

Interesting that another error occurred which has nothing to do with the problem. I'm amazed that a wine could be incorrectly labeled and shipped. If anything, at least that helps strengthen your procedures going forward.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #768  Postby Ted Erfer » July 24th 2009, 5:38am

bvm winemaker wrote:With the sole intention of informing customers regarding the progress of our investigations regarding what may have occurred to Sierra Carche 2005, we can add to our communication of 21st July:

1. We have detected an error in the management of our warehouse and order dispatch which shows that when taking unlabelled wine from the section where our Reserva and special selection wines age in bottle, which resulted in a mistake being made with the dispatch of 2400 bottles which relates to lot code 7033 which was not Sierra Carche but rather a special selection of the winery. We have immediately put in procedures in our operating system to ensure that such a mistake could not reoccur.
The wine we erroneously shipped as lot 7033 of Sierra Carche was very well received, it was not the wine which Mr. Jay Miller pronounced “undrinkable” nor has it been the subject of customer complaints
2. We have sent to a prestigious and well known Barcelona laboratory samples from all three lots ( 7033, 8113 and 8114 ). This laboratory is reputed for its extreme rigor and reliability. This laboratory will carry out microbiological tests paying special attention to the detection of bacterial moulds and yeasts, lactic and acetic bacteria, free SO2 and volatile acidity. As soon as we know the results, we will publish them without delay. We are of the opinion that they are technically correct but that personal and ratings evaluations are a subjective matter.

3. We still today have not received samples from consumers which are considered defective by consumers which we wish to have similarly analyzed as well as organaleptically.

4. Finally we wish to reiterate our deep concern and to apologize for this error whose damage is most significant for the small organization of growers and winemakers that we are but we do accept total responsibility for the matter and accept returns. Correspondence regarding such should be made to : screturns2005@yahoo.com




Same post on another forum with this author posted at 7:16am

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #769  Postby José F. Rodríguez » July 24th 2009, 5:59am

Ted Erfer wrote:
Same post on another forum with this author posted at 7:16am

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Ted:

Marcial is the winemaker for Casa de la Ermita, were Sierra Carche is made. It is the same person as bvm winemaker (Bodegas y Viñedos Murcia).

It appears that his job description duties have increased in recent days since he is also doing damage control for Well Oiled Wine Company.

SALUDos,
José
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #770  Postby John Morris » July 24th 2009, 6:05am

Cris Whetstone wrote:I think there is a distinction to be made between tasting a lot of wines and deciding on purchasing or not and scoring and writing full tasting notes in that environment. Scores and full tasting notes from one or two ounce sips done rapidly are are silly IMNSHO and that's before I get to how silly scores are but that's another thread.


Indeed! A retailer who tastes that way is taking the risk of being stuck with bad wines. But when a critic tastes that way, it's the readers/consumers who pay the price.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #771  Postby Jim Brennan » July 24th 2009, 6:07am

José F. Rodríguez wrote:It appears that his job description duties have increased in recent days since he is also doing damage control for Well Oiled Wine Company.


It makes sense if there was a mix-up under the auspices of the winery.

I'd still like to understand how many bottles were actually produced / what the breakdown of bottles is vis-a-vis the lots.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #772  Postby John Morris » July 24th 2009, 6:15am

bvm winemaker wrote:....

1. We have detected an error in the management of our warehouse and order dispatch which shows that when taking unlabelled wine from the section where our Reserva and special selection wines age in bottle, which resulted in a mistake being made with the dispatch of 2400 bottles which relates to lot code 7033 which was not Sierra Carche but rather a special selection of the winery. We have immediately put in procedures in our operating system to ensure that such a mistake could not reoccur.

The wine we erroneously shipped as lot 7033 of Sierra Carche was very well received, it was not the wine which Mr. Jay Miller pronounced “undrinkable” nor has it been the subject of customer complaints


Huh? We'd been told that 7033 was the third bottling, from the remains after the first two bottling runs (8113, 8114). Now they're saying the overrun bottling (7033) was too good to be Sierra Carche?? Are they saying they don't defend the real Sierra Carche, 8113 and 8114 -- the only lots that anyone in the US has reported drinking?

I'm utterly confused.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #773  Postby José F. Rodríguez » July 24th 2009, 6:37am

Jim Brennan wrote:
José F. Rodríguez wrote:It appears that his job description duties have increased in recent days since he is also doing damage control for Well Oiled Wine Company.


It makes sense if there was a mix-up under the auspices of the winery.

I'd still like to understand how many bottles were actually produced / what the breakdown of bottles is vis-a-vis the lots.


Jim:

This story gets getting more and more complicated.

I am not sure that the "mix-up under the auspices of the winery" makes any sense to me.

We have two different stories from the winemaker regarding lot L7033. The first one was that lot L7033 was a 3,600 bottle run of which 1,050 bottles were sent to the US market, the latest one is that lot L7033 was 2,400 bottles. We also have to add that based on the information we have so far there are three different production figures according to the labels of this wine (16,000, 20,000 and 21,000).

I will also like to know the total number of bottles of this release.

SALUDos,
José
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #774  Postby Ted Erfer » July 24th 2009, 6:43am

Mark Clinard just posted a response to the Cruz post.....on "another" forum. Don't know if we can cut and paste from there.

Were the "bad" bottles part of this mistakenly made lot?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #775  Postby Douglass Smith » July 24th 2009, 6:46am

Perhaps the "special selection" was what Dr. Jay, GaryV and a few early drinkers on CT had and liked ...

Although bvm winemaker says that the "special selection" was not the one that Dr. Jay found undrinkable, he does not deny it could have been the one Dr. Jay and others were tasted on.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #776  Postby John Morris » July 24th 2009, 6:47am

Ted Erfer wrote:Mark Clinard just posted a response to the Cruz post.....on "another" forum. Don't know if we can cut and paste from there.

Were the "bad" bottles part of this mistakenly made lot?


http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/sho ... tcount=309

He says Well Oiled has reached out to the people who received lot 7033 -- the really good stuff -- in error.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #777  Postby Daniel Posner » July 24th 2009, 6:48am

What an absurd story...so lot 7033 was just another wine? FYI, Reuters, a huge international news service with reaches far beyond any of us, chimes in today...

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2 ... his-brand/
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #778  Postby Jim Brennan » July 24th 2009, 6:53am

José F. Rodríguez wrote:This story gets getting more and more complicated.

I am not sure that the "mix-up under the auspices of the winery" makes any sense to me.


I agree. I'm simply saying that if they are publicly going to attribute the problem to a winery mix-up, then I can understand the winemaker making that statement rather than Well-Oiled.

Whether we actually buy the explanation is another issue entirely. :)

At this point I also think it's clear that they're dancing around the issue that the actual total number of bottles of '05 Sierra Carche produced was significantly greater than initially stated to DrBigRube.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #779  Postby Jack Bulkin » July 24th 2009, 6:56am

Jim Brennan wrote:
José F. Rodríguez wrote:This story gets getting more and more complicated.

I am not sure that the "mix-up under the auspices of the winery" makes any sense to me.


I agree. I'm simply saying that if they are publicly going to attribute the problem to a winery mix-up, then I can understand the winemaker making that statement rather than Well-Oiled.

Whether we actually buy the explanation is another issue entirely. :)

At this point I also think it's clear that they're dancing around the issue that the actual total number of bottles of '05 Sierra Carche produced was significantly greater than initially stated to DrBigRube.


All of this is starting to sound like the winery has been directed to fall on the sword to get the fat man and the palate off the hook. Maybe that was why we were informed that an "answer" would be forthcoming.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #780  Postby Kyle S chaffer » July 24th 2009, 7:20am

I am so confused by the lot #s in this story.

Do we know what Jay tasted? Are they saying that both lots 8113 and 8114 are bad?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #781  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » July 24th 2009, 7:31am

Kyle S chaffer wrote:I am so confused by the lot #s in this story.

Do we know what Jay tasted? Are they saying that both lots 8113 and 8114 are bad?



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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #782  Postby Faryan Amir-Ghassem¡ » July 24th 2009, 7:43am

Kyle S chaffer wrote:I am so confused by the lot #s in this story.

Do we know what Jay tasted? Are they saying that both lots 8113 and 8114 are bad?


Marcial avoids the issue by stating that the improper bottling was of above-grade wine (special reserve?). He further points out that they are oblivious to poor samples, not having received any from consumers (cmon Kenney, you sent your bottles on your dime to Jay, but what about the winery? Jeez, talk about slacking off...). Finally, he states that bottles from whatever conjured up lot numbers he decided to throw out have been sent to some lab somewhere in Catalunia to be tested on some time table to verify whether or not something happened or did not happen.

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #783  Postby Nathan Smyth » July 24th 2009, 7:47am

Uh-oh, looks like WineHunter is about to get banned:

Maybe, someone should also start numbering the Parker and Miller barrels, to avoid mix-ups with production wine.

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #784  Postby Daniel Posner » July 24th 2009, 7:53am

As Jack Bulkin points out, if the winery takes the fall, The Wine Advocate and Jay Miller are free to go, as is the importer.

Of course the story makes absolutely no sense, but if this story "sticks" (which is unlikely as it has more holes than a slice of Swiss Cheese), Well Oiled Wine Co can continue to show their wines to Jay Miller. Genius!

Victor Hong, and others are not dumb. Many are dumb. But this investigation, arriving 3 days late, does not answer any real questions, it just creates more, like, "why the coverup?"

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #785  Postby Daniel Posner » July 24th 2009, 7:55am

Just as an FYI, one of my random customers just forwarded me the Reuters blog. More people will see that than will see the RP bulletin board coverup.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #786  Postby John Morris » July 24th 2009, 7:58am

Nathan Smyth wrote:Uh-oh, looks like WineHunter is about to get banned:

Maybe, someone should also start numbering the Parker and Miller barrels, to avoid mix-ups with production wine.

http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/showthread.php?t=206266&page=8&pp=40#postmenu_2703232


I saw that. I was thinking they could add Megapurple to distinguish them but.... I guess that's already in those blends.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #787  Postby Daniel Posner » July 24th 2009, 8:12am

Can someone please explain the summary of what Mark Clinard and marcial wrote. Correct me of I am wrong...

1) Lot 7033...1050 btls went to the US. Miller did not taste from this lot. It is not really Sierra Carche, but a Reserva wine

2) Lot 8113 and 8114...Marcial, the winemaker, says that there is nothing wrong with this wines. Mark Clinard and Marcial have both sent samples of these lots to separate labs for further evaluation.

3) Mark Clinard says that they met with the winery back in March, obviously did not happen.
4) Well Oiled Wine Co is in a deep pool of urine right now.
5) We waited 10 days to see what happened and we still have no idea what happened.
6) Jay Miller and Robert Parker, despite Parker's hollow threats, have gone radio silent, or maybe they are on a riverboat cruise in Australia?
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #788  Postby CWun » July 24th 2009, 8:44am

The wine we erroneously shipped as lot 7033 of Sierra Carche was very well received, it was not the wine which Mr. Jay Miller pronounced “undrinkable” nor has it been the subject of customer complaints


I've restrained from adding to this thread, but the response from the winemaker has finally prompted me.

So...Lot 7033 of 2,400 bottles (or 3,600 or some other number) which isn't "true" Sierra Carche appears to have been well received, while the other ~30,000-40,000 bottles of "true" Sierra Carche are crap. That is what I infer in general.
But, there is no clear answer on what wine Jay Miller tasted. Was he "erroneously" given lot 7033 also? [stirthepothal.gif] What a big clusterf.

I guess I'll stick with the easier task of finding good Burgundies....
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #789  Postby José F. Rodríguez » July 24th 2009, 8:58am

Daniel Posner wrote:Can someone please explain the summary of what Mark Clinard and marcial wrote. Correct me of I am wrong...

1) Lot 7033...1050 btls went to the US. Miller did not taste from this lot. It is not really Sierra Carche, but a Riserva wine



Dan:

There is too much conflicting information to determine how many bottles were assigned to lot L7033. Feel sorry for whoever is buying their "special selection" since it might be one of the 2005 Sierra Carche bottles.

BTW, the wine is from Spain not Italy (Reserva not Riserva) [tease.gif]!

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #790  Postby Daniel Posner » July 24th 2009, 9:17am

Are you sure that it is from Spain. This could be Moroccan Merlot...I will wait for the lab results. At the pace that WOWC, Sierra Carche, and TWA are moving on this investigation, I suspect an answer by the next Hailey's Comet.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #791  Postby Bruce Leiser_owitz » July 24th 2009, 9:27am

Well, since there are still many, many questions posed in this thread which haven't been answered, I guess we still have to wait for the results of the "investigation."

So far, we've been looking at the back end (literally and figuratively) of this issue--the production and number of bottles. What I would like to know concerns the front end of this issue--the vineyard source(s).

In particular, for the Sierra Carche label, there are at least two possibilities:

1. There is a definite, fixed vineyard source of the grapes that will be harvested and vinified to go into the Sierra Carche bottling. If so, can someone describe/identify that vineyard source with some specificity?

2. Or, can any vineyard source and/or any blend of grapes go into the Sierra Carche label? It does not appear that the grapes are limited to "estate" vineyards, but we should have a clear statement of that.

While I have my suspicions, I would rather work from actual information. FWIW, the original Feb. 2008 JSM review of the wine is completely silent on the question of vineyard source/identity.

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #792  Postby John Morris » July 24th 2009, 9:29am

CWun wrote:
But, there is no clear answer on what wine Jay Miller tasted. Was he "erroneously" given lot 7033 also?


In fairness, the posting clearly says that Miller tasted a sample of the true Sierra Carche, of which there was one tank. The real lot 7033 (the third bottling) was from the same tank, too. He says another wine had the Sierra Carche labels put on it and the lot 7033 number and was shipped as such.

But, of course, this doesn't inspire much confidence, nor does it explain the problems with lots 8113 and 8114.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #793  Postby M A T T H A R T L E Y » July 24th 2009, 9:31am

Not to bring up the point system - but even Reuters agrees that is part of the problem here (or in general)...

"Once you know that, the Wine Advocate’s 96-point rating becomes easier to understand: this wine was designed to get high ratings, because high ratings are the best possible driver of international sales. It had been, to use the wine-world term, “Parkerized”. And the importer will of course have done everything in his power to ensure that Parker’s critic drank the very best possible expression of the wine.

Parker has thousands of loyal followers, and if they want to go out and buy Parkerized wines, that’s entirely up to them. If the wines then turn out to be very different from what the critic tasted, that’s a genuine scandal. Guy Anderson Wines will go off and find “a different winery” for Sierra Carche, but will keep the brand, because that 96-point rating, even if it’s for an earlier vintage, is still a great way of making sales on later vintages. Consumers will assume there’s some kind of continuity there.

But many of them will also assume that Miller somehow stumbled across this gem from Spain, rather than thinking that they’re drinking an English brand, made from Spanish grapes, specifically designed to appeal to Miller’s palate. But that’s what a lot of winemaking is, these days. And it’s increasingly difficult to tell the difference between honest local wines, on the one hand, and Parkerized global brands, on the other."
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #794  Postby Bill Tex Landreth » July 24th 2009, 9:39am

And there it is...the "Parkerized" comment.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #795  Postby Eric LeVine » July 24th 2009, 9:55am

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:
Kyle S chaffer wrote:I am so confused by the lot #s in this story.

Do we know what Jay tasted? Are they saying that both lots 8113 and 8114 are bad?



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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #796  Postby M.Kaplan » July 24th 2009, 10:08am

Ding Ding Ding Ding. And the winner is:

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #797  Postby Jeff Twersky » July 24th 2009, 10:30am

John Morris wrote:
CWun wrote:
But, there is no clear answer on what wine Jay Miller tasted. Was he "erroneously" given lot 7033 also?


In fairness, the posting clearly says that Miller tasted a sample of the true Sierra Carche, of which there was one tank. The real lot 7033 (the third bottling) was from the same tank, too. He says another wine had the Sierra Carche labels put on it and the lot 7033 number and was shipped as such.

But, of course, this doesn't inspire much confidence, nor does it explain the problems with lots 8113 and 8114.


John,

I must have missed something. The post says that Miller did not declare the mistaken reserva bottling as undrinkable. I don't think that anyone has determined which lot Miller tasted and scored. I don't think that we will ever know that.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #798  Postby Jeff Twersky » July 24th 2009, 10:42am

I think that this is losing a bit of focus. Lot 7033 is is a red herring, isn't it?

Miller declared Kenney's bottle, from 8113 (or 8114) undrinkable. 7033 was mistakenly shipped as part of the remnant lot, which I take to mean that it shipped after the successful acceptance of lots 8113 and 8114 in the US market.

So, if that was not the lot that Miller tasted, either, and all of the undrinkable lots identified, by Hudak, Kenney, etc., have been 8113 or 8114, 7033 is a non-issue as to how there was such a major difference between the wine sent to the US versus the wine that Miller originally tasted.
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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #799  Postby Brent C l a y t o n » July 24th 2009, 10:48am

I can't believe no one asked yet...

So where did this "real" Sierra Carche that was mistakenly substituted from the holding warehouse for the "wrong" wine end up??? Did some area of Spain get a $4/bot Jumilla that was the "96pt" Sierra Carche??? And can we find some and have that tested at the lab along with the other wines for a "more definitive" answer to this mystery?

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Re: Sierra Carche - Jay Miller - and the latest black eye

Post #800  Postby zachary l a n g » July 24th 2009, 10:57am

I love how now that this story is out, the wine is getting 74 pts in CT reviews instead of the 90+ pt reviews it was getting....does anyone taste for themselves anymore?

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