What are the Best Terroirs for Riesling?

[Charlie Gierling]

Isn't Oberhauser Brucke really the same terroir as Niederhauser Hermansberg, where Staatsdomaine made great wine for a very long time? I seem to remember Terry Theise saying years back that these were essentially the same site but that Staatsdomaine wanted to claim a monopole or something like that.

The Brücke (http://weinlagen-info.de/#lage_id=727) is only that plot near the river. That's why it produces lots of botrytis. The Hermannsberg (http://weinlagen-info.de/#lage_id=704) is up the hill, with less botrytis usually

[David M. Bueker]

Isn't Oberhauser Brucke really the same terroir as Niederhauser Hermansberg, where Staatsdomaine made great wine for a very long time? I seem to remember Terry Theise saying years back that these were essentially the same site but that Staatsdomaine wanted to claim a monopole or something like that.

The Brücke (http://weinlagen-info.de/#lage_id=727) is only that plot near the river. That's why it produces lots of botrytis. The Hermannsberg (http://weinlagen-info.de/#lage_id=704) is up the hill, with less botrytis usually

I'm fairly sure (don't have my references handy) that the Brucke is somewhat different soils as well.

[Lars Carlberg]

Russell: A friend and I were just at Scharzhofberg and walked along the path at the foot of the vineyard. It's primarily gray slate, although blue slate is in the mix. One plot was young vines trained along wires, the other densely planted old vines with wooden stakes. The latter was Egon Müller's.

Lars,

Are people replanting the vines in the Scharzhofberger by choice, necessity or fleurbereinigung?

David: I'll need to talk with Egon Müller about it more, but the replantings in the past were choice, not a Flurbereinigung. Bischöfliche Weingüter and von Kesselstatt chose to replant their parcels to make them easier to work.

[Lars Carlberg]

Anyone mentioned Kanzemer Altenberg?

This is a grand site and von Othegraven is the best producer, although Van Volxem has old vines here and von Hövel has an enclave monopole called Hörecker.

[Yule Kim]

Yule: According to geologists, the only area on the Mosel with truly red slate is Schweicher Annaberg, a large hill just north of Trier, where the Middle Mosel begins its course. Karthäuserhofberg is more weathered gray slate with lots of iron oxide. Don't ask me how they define what's truly red slate or not. Although Annaberg and Karthäuserhofberg are in different areas, the soil type seems to run along a similar geological vein from one to the other. It kind of makes sense if one takes the road from Trier to Schweich. As for Ürziger Würzgarten, it has a most unique volcanic red-colored soil known as rhyolite. This is different than red slate or gray slate oxidized red. Of course, there are sections of Würzgarten that have blue and gray slate too. Prälat and Treppchen are adjacent and have red-colored soils mixed with slate.

Nonetheless, there are a few other distinct areas along the Mosel with pockets of more red-colored (or iron-oxidized) slate, including the Rothenpfad sector of Marienburg farmed by Clemens Busch. The wines from red slate tend to be more exotic and spicy, less austere than those from the harder blue slate. One just needs to taste Clemens Busch's Fahrlay alongside Rothenpfad.

Thank you Lars for the information. Definitely stuff to chew on.

I also heard that Maximin Grunhaus has different types of slates as well (which I am sure you already know): Abtsberg's is blue (thus it is more mineral and austere) while Herrenberg has both blue and red (thus is more approachable).

It is just fascinating to me what iron oxide can do to riesling. I feel like I should track down the Clemens Busch wines and maybe grab a bottle of Abtsberg and Herrenberg and try them side by side to check out the difference. Something on my to do list now.

[Yule Kim]

Since we are talking about Scharzhofberg, I was wondering about the quality of Von Hovel's plot. I bought a bottle of their '93 Scharzhofberg Spatlese for a song, but I have read that people generally consider their Oberemmeller Hutte as their finer wines.

Is this because their Scharzhofberger vines have been replanted and are young? Or is it just because Egon Muller has finer parcels within Scharzhofberg. Or is Von Hovel's Hutte holdings (which I guess is the entirety of that vineyard) just that much better?

[Lars Carlberg]

Yule: You're welcome. I hope to answer in more detail many of these questions and more in my new website. Yes, Abtsberg is mainly blue slate, Herrenberg has a redder soil. The former is usually more austere.

Hütte is the main vineyard of von Hövel's. In fact, it's a monopole. Their holdings in Scharzhofberg include a small old-vine parcel in the original section of this site as well as in the former Scharzberg. As I understand, Egon kept many of his old vines; whereas, others replanted their plots.

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Thanks Lars; would love the link to your site (though I guess I can just search).

I second Yule's question: Von Hoevel's OH is reputed to be superior to his Scharzhofberger, though the latter is widely considered to be ne plus ultra MSR terroir. What gives? Are you saying VH replanted his Scharzhofberger holding?

[Charlie Carnes]

Ellergrub was mentioned. I had an utterly compelling 2010 Ellergrub from Immich a week ago.

[Russell Faulkner]

Of course if you walk Abtsberg and Herrenberg they are continuous, there's nothing really to let you know you left one and joined the other immediately, though the slate does change as mentioned.

[Charlie Gierling]

I'm fairly sure (don't have my references handy) that the Brucke is somewhat different soils as well.

the Brücke is on the flat bank of the river so probably it is somtehing like sand or gravel. On Dönnhoffs site it says: "grey slate covred by loess loam" http://www.doennhoff.com/#/lagenweine/bruecke

BTW, most of the vineyards metioned in this thread can be seen on http://weinlagen-info.de/

[Lars Carlberg]

Ian: My blog has been moved to a new address: http://www.larscarlbergselections.com/. In my last post, I explain my new project.

Scharzhofberger has more renown, yet von Hövel focuses on their monopole site of Hütte, which is a great vineyard as well. In fact, Oberemmel has several top-ranked sites and was always mentioned among the top communes in 19th-century books. I visited von Hövel last week, but didn't ask Max von Kunow, who is now running the estate, about when they had replanted their vines in Scharzhofberg (i.e., the former Scharzberg). As I mentioned above, they do have an old-vine plot (6 are) in the original Scharzhofberg.

[Lars Carlberg]

Ellergrub was mentioned. I had an utterly compelling 2010 Ellergrub from Immich a week ago.

It's one of the best terroirs on the Mosel. In addition, there was no Flurbereinigung in this section, so that most of the old ungrafted vines on this hillside (Batterieberg, Zeppwingert, Gaispfad, Zollturm) have been left alone. Along with Immich-Batterieberg, Weiser-Künstler has a prime terraced section in Ellergrub.

[Lars Carlberg]

Of course if you walk Abtsberg and Herrenberg they are continuous, there's nothing really to let you know you left one and joined the other immediately, though the slate does change as mentioned.

That's true. Abtsberg is primarily the dome-shaped hillock closer to the estate. Herrenberg is much larger and extends down the long hillside.

[Lars Carlberg]

I'm fairly sure (don't have my references handy) that the Brucke is somewhat different soils as well.

the Brücke is on the flat bank of the river so probably it is somtehing like sand or gravel. On Dönnhoffs site it says: "grey slate covred by loess loam" http://www.doennhoff.com/#/lagenweine/bruecke

BTW, most of the vineyards metioned in this thread can be seen on http://weinlagen-info.de/

That's awesome.

[Howard Cooper]

Ellergrub was mentioned. I had an utterly compelling 2010 Ellergrub from Immich a week ago.

I am not an expert on Immich, but is Ellergrub his best vineyard? I thought that was Batterieberg. But, you guys know more than me. I have not had or seen any Immich wines in a long time.

By the way, I still have one bottle of 1985 Batterieberg Auslese.

[Howard Cooper]

Isn't Oberhauser Brucke really the same terroir as Niederhauser Hermansberg, where Staatsdomaine made great wine for a very long time? I seem to remember Terry Theise saying years back that these were essentially the same site but that Staatsdomaine wanted to claim a monopole or something like that.

The Brücke (http://weinlagen-info.de/#lage_id=727) is only that plot near the river. That's why it produces lots of botrytis. The Hermannsberg (http://weinlagen-info.de/#lage_id=704) is up the hill, with less botrytis usually

I'm fairly sure (don't have my references handy) that the Brucke is somewhat different soils as well.

Then, I wonder what I remember Terry Theise saying.

[Lars Carlberg]

Ellergrub was mentioned. I had an utterly compelling 2010 Ellergrub from Immich a week ago.

I am not an expert on Immich, but is Ellergrub his best vineyard? I thought that was Batterieberg. But, you guys know more than me. I have not had or seen any Immich wines in a long time.

By the way, I still have one bottle of 1985 Batterieberg Auslese.

Howard: That's an excellent question. In the past, Immich-Batterieberg always tried to highlight their Batterieberg site, even though they have other top vineyards, such as Steffensberg. Gernot Kollmann, who is cellar master and runs the property, said that much of what was probably Ellergrub sold under the Batterieberg-site label. In other words, if casks of Ellergrub were better than Batterieberg that vintage, it was bottled then as Batterieberg. Gernot feels both sites are tops, but he tends to favor Ellergrub a bit more.

[dbailey]

Interesting that nobody has mentioned any of Keller's wines/sites yet!

[Eric Ifune]

Keller really doesn't have great sites. They just do very well with what they have. Sorta like Hans Gunter Schwartz when he was with Muller Catoir. Makes you wonder what they could do with a really first class site.

[Charlie Gierling]

Keller really doesn't have great sites. They just do very well with what they have. Sorta like Hans Gunter Schwartz when he was with Muller Catoir. Makes you wonder what they could do with a really first class site.

Yes, but now he has plots on the "red slope" (Roter Hang) in the Niersteiner Hipping (http://weinlagen-info.de/#lage_id=1331) and this is a good vineyard for sure

[Martin Zwick]

Keller really doesn't have great sites. .

Eric,

maybe you didn´t noticed, but the estate KELLER expanded their portfolio of sites. Now they have also Hipping + Pettenthal and Morstein, Abtserde, G-Max parcel are first class sites too.

Regarding Abtserde you have to know that it was famous already in middle-ages:

"Keller bought the parcel Abtserde in 1998 when he found old descriptions
about the vineyards, which stated that in the 14th century, the bishops from Worms
only wanted their wine from: “ an aptes erden”, ‘on abbots earth’, as they were so
happy with the quality. The parcel never gave a lot of wine and the peasants had to
give 10% of the production to the clergy each year, so they thought it would be a
good idea to change the parcel to a more fertile, less stony field. But the bishop
must have been a wine connoisseur who realized that his wine is not as good as
before. So he told an abbot to check why this was the case? He arrived in
Westhofen and found out about the parcel change and in 1453 decreed that the
wine for the bishop from Worms has to be grown: “an aptes erden”."


Regarding Morstein, the famous wine historian Bronner writes in 1900: "Hier wären grosse Weine möglich, so denn die Trauben ausreiften“
It means that great wines were possible from Morstein if the grapes reach perfect ripeness.

As a consequence by the result of climate change is that ripeness is reached easier. Also, as the growing season starts earlier and finishes later, the grapes reach not only a higher sugar concentration, but also better phenolic ripeness. The tannins are not green.

As you can see what was earlier too cold is now ideal.........


Cheers,
Martin

[Eric Ifune]

Good news. The Roter Hang is certainly an excellent site. Didn't they made their name on more inland vinyards on the flatland?

[Martin Zwick]

Good news. The Roter Hang is certainly an excellent site. Didn't they made their name on more inland vinyards on the flatland?

Kellers Morstein and Hubacker are as flat as Mugniers Musigny and Rousseaus Chambertin. hahaha

It rock beneath that counts. In times of global warming steep exposition can even be a disadvantage.

Who talks of exposition of the sites when it comes to BDX eg – the soil structure, the drainage is much more important.

In former times when Riesling was hard to get ripness steep exposition( esp southern exposition ) was a positive thing – nowadays that ripness is easy to obtain – it has strongly lost in importance.

[Lars Carlberg]

Good news. The Roter Hang is certainly an excellent site. Didn't they made their name on more inland vinyards on the flatland?

Kellers Morstein and Hubacker are as flat as Mugniers Musigny and Rousseaus Chambertin. hahaha

It rock beneath that counts. In times of global warming steep exposition can even be a disadvantage.

Who talks of exposition of the sites when it comes to BDX eg – the soil structure, the drainage is much more important.

In former times when Riesling was hard to get ripness steep exposition( esp southern exposition ) was a positive thing – nowadays that ripness is easy to obtain – it has strongly lost in importance.

Martin: Those are all excellent points that you make. I was thinking the same thing, especially on my trip through Burgundy last year.

The Mosel has good flat sites, such as Schlangengraben, or even east-facing vineyards. The steepness helps with drainage, though.

The great terroirs of the Mosel (and I'm biased too) are hard to beat and the breed or pedigree of the wines come from a combination of cool climate and slate soils.

[Charlie Gierling]

There is one reason to consider Morstein a great vineyard: there is more than one producer who make great wine from this vineyard in more that one vintage. So if this is not a coincidence Morstein is a great vineyard. The other (at least in my opinion) necessary condition is not so clear to me when it comes to Morstein: is the wine distinct from others? Probably I have to tast much more to answer this ...

[Lars Carlberg]

Charlie: Agreed. If more than one producer is making great wine from a site, we're better able to judge the terroir despite stylistic differences. A good example is Graacher Domprobst from Willi Schaefer and Markus Molitor.

[Claus Jeppesen]

There is one reason to consider Morstein a great vineyard: there is more than one producer who make great wine from this vineyard in more that one vintage. So if this is not a coincidence Morstein is a great vineyard. The other (at least in my opinion) necessary condition is not so clear to me when it comes to Morstein: is the wine distinct from others? Probably I have to tast much more to answer this ...

Hi Charlie
Well both Keller and Wittmann made fantastic Morstein GG´s in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010 and probably also in other vintages not tasted.
Morstein yields imo one of this worlds greatest white wines (including G Max)
My other favs for dry and sweet Riesling is Halenberg and Felseneck, which should also be mentioned here
/ Claus

[Bill H o o p e r]

Keller really doesn't have great sites. They just do very well with what they have. Sorta like Hans Gunter Schwartz when he was with Muller Catoir. Makes you wonder what they could do with a really first class site.

It's true that M-C doesn't have property in Forst, Wachenheim or Deidesheim, but the Breumel in den Mauern site in Haardt is one of the prime sites in all of the Pfalz. It is an actual 'Clos', surrounded by a wall with primarily sandy-soil and produces excellent Riesling that maybe isn't as Pfalz-exotic as some vineyards, yet is perhaps more classic. The higher-altitude Gimmeldinger and other Haardt sites are pretty damn good too and I know a lot of producers who would love to get their hands on them. Sure, the Mussbacher Eselshaut isn't a 'great' vineyard, but it isn't bad either compared to everything stretching eastwards towards the Rhein -and it isn't as sensitive to frost as some others.

Cheers,
Bill

[Marcus Stanley]

A touch off topic, but do any of you Riesling freaks think that any Upstate NY / Finger Lakes sites will ever make the list of the world's topic Riesling terroirs? I'm pretty skeptical generally of obscure U.S. regions that claim to be world class, but I've been extremely impressed by the best upstate NY Rieslings. Riesling is not my expertise but they seem quite competitive with Alsace to me (not as experienced with Germany/Austria).

[Howard Cooper]

A touch off topic, but do any of you Riesling freaks think that any Upstate NY / Finger Lakes sites will ever make the list of the world's topic Riesling terroirs? I'm pretty skeptical generally of obscure U.S. regions that claim to be world class, but I've been extremely impressed by the best upstate NY Rieslings. Riesling is not my expertise but they seem quite competitive with Alsace to me (not as experienced with Germany/Austria).

I think it would be a long time if at all. Even if great wines are made their, is there really any site up there that is known for making distinctive wines, wines that are better than and different from wines from other plots. I think that the growers must first identify specific plots of land that are great and make wines from them consistently before anyone has any idea or whether a terroir is world class.

[Bill H o o p e r]

A touch off topic, but do any of you Riesling freaks think that any Upstate NY / Finger Lakes sites will ever make the list of the world's topic Riesling terroirs? I'm pretty skeptical generally of obscure U.S. regions that claim to be world class, but I've been extremely impressed by the best upstate NY Rieslings. Riesling is not my expertise but they seem quite competitive with Alsace to me (not as experienced with Germany/Austria).

I'd like to hear impressions too. A few questions about NY:

To start:
What are the soil types found there?
How much rainfall do the growing regions in NY receive month to month?
What is the lowest temperature recorded in these regions and is frost a constant problem (Riesling is generally safe to about -20 degrees C/ -4 F)
What are the Average temps month to month?
Are the vineyards basically flat, or are there steep slopes?
What is the GDD number in NY?
How much of a risk are Oidium and Peronospora (Downey Mildew)?

Cheers,
Bill