Lettie Teague's take on alcohol levels in wine

[Shaun_Crowley]

Amen Bob!

[Linda_Baehr]

@Roberto Rogness

Not at all: Hangar One Texas Red Grapefruit Vodka is “balanced” but I defy you to drink 8 0z with dinner…

Is this supposed to be a demonstration of alcohol, capsicum. acidity, or balance?

[Paul_L_i_n]

@Bruce G

While I don’t agree with Parr at all when he says “I think 14% is the threshold of a balanced wine” I think some people are bending over the other way too far.
[EDIT: He’s now saying (on Twitter) that he never said this, so…]

Here is the link where he says this:
http://twitter.com/RN74/status/12310812722" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Cris_Whetstone]

@Linda Baehr

And since I just now bothered to read the article, I find this a rather silly statement:

“While certain grape varieties are naturally higher in sugar than others (Zinfandel versus, say, Pinot Noir)”


Zinfandel is only higher in sugar than Pinot if you pick it at a higher sugar than Pinot. If you are in a warm climate and let your Pinot hang, it can get every bit as high in sugar as Zin. [suicide.gif]

Don’t you know better than to bring logic and facts to an argument over religion and politics?

[Cris_Whetstone]

@Linda Baehr

@Shaun Crowley

Linda,

We are pretty much on the same page. I guess my point is… if the alcohol is out of balance with the other components… it’s simply a poorly made wine…and the idea of “were the alcohol lower” is moot, because…as you know… it’s a give and take between many factors.

I just don’t like this throw-away term of “hot.” And like you mentioned…most people can’t tell you within a few points the “heat” of a wine.

Describing a wine in terms of “heat” is the quickest way to point out an amateur trying too hard.

(I agree that part was totally silly as well)

Well, heat might be a “trendy” term for amateurs, but it is an apt description, and winemakers use it all of the time.

Indeed. Are we supposed to just zip it when there is a burn from the alcohol?

[Cris_Whetstone]

@Bruce G

While I don’t agree with Parr at all when he says “I think 14% is the threshold of a balanced wine” I think some people are bending over the other way too far.
[EDIT: He’s now saying (on Twitter) that he never said this, so…]

Alcohol matters, folks.
After water, it is the single most significant compound in wine, quantitatively speaking.
More importantly, it impacts the sensory profile of a wine in several distinct ways. Experienced tasters can recognize the effects of high alcohol, and can map out their own thresholds. [Experienced tasters also know that the thresholds aren’t absolutes, of course.]

If a serious student of wine knows that chances of liking a wine (based on personal experience)decreases greatly above, for instance, an actual ABV of 15%, then a label reporting 15.1% has got to sound warning bells.

Alcohol matters. And what is written on the label matters (whether or not the declaration is accurate).
Producers should be encouraged to report the abv as accurately as possible.

I simply don’t think that there is one percentage across all wines of all styles of all grapes where you can say it is too much. 15% in Muscadet does not carry the same effect as 15% in CdP.

I think we shouldn’t be singling out alcohol this way though. Why don’t we also put the Ph and acid levels on the wine so that we can just read whether or not the wine is balanced? Artistry by numbers.

[Roberto_Rogness]

Linda, serious question re the sugars: if you plant, say, Grenache, Pinot, Nebbiolo and Malbec side by side, won’t they each have different sugar levels at any given time in response to the same inputs?

Otherwise why do Piemontese vignerons harvest Dolcetto, then Barbera, then Nebbiolo with a three to five week spread?

[Shaun_Crowley]

Zip it! A burn from alcohol? Really? A BURN? Vodka burns. Gin burns. Wine…it just doesn’t burn. Sorry.

[Bruce_G]

@Cris Whetstone

I simply don’t think that there is one percentage across all wines of all styles of all grapes where you can say it is too much. 15% in Muscadet does not carry the same effect as 15% in CdP.

I can’t ever recall having a 15% Muscadet, so I’ll have to take your word on that.
For my part, I find it pretty difficult to find a dry white or red at or above 15% that really appeals to me. There are a few, but they’re noticeable for the lack of company as much as anything else.

I think we shouldn’t be singling out alcohol this way though. Why don’t we also put the Ph and acid levels on the wine so that we can just read whether or not the wine is balanced? Artistry by numbers.

Alcohol is a common point of contention because the vast majority of wines carry an abv on the label. If there were similar requirments about TA (or RS or… whatever) then we might well be having similar arguments about those numbers.

Re: the “we can just read whether or not the wine is balanced” comment… sooner or later someone goes down this road and mis-characterizes the argument. Unfortunate, that.

[Bruce_G]

@Shaun Crowley

Bruce, I respectfully disagree. In fact, I think the exact opposite. The serious taster/student of wine should know that wine is to be taken on a case to case basis.

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
While a serious student of wine would know that wine can always have the capacity to surprise, an accumulation of experience allows you to map your preferences well enough.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

@Cris Whetstone

My sore spot with this subject is the pass Europe gets on it. I don’t believe their labeling anymore than I believe the labels in the USA. Europe has an image to protect in regards to this and this very telling clip from the article shows why:

“he added that his rule didn’t so much apply to European wines but to California producers who he thought had “pushed the envelope” in trying to get wines excessively ripe. “We need to support the producers who are trying to make leaner, lower-alcohol wines in California,” he said.”

Cris, I’m not sure who’s giving Europeans a free “pass”? Clearly, both have producers of very ripe wines. The quote refers to “excessively ripe” and having “pushed the envelope”. We’d need better definitions to really know what he meant. From my limited perspective, it seems that more Cali producers have been flirting with 16 - 17.5%+ levels than their European counterparts.

The trend towards bigger seems to be stabilizing. Supporting Cali producers of leaner, lower-alcohol wines seems like a good idea with respect to adding alternatives. In the end, the market will decide the producers and styles that survive.

RT

[Linda_Baehr]

@Roberto Rogness

Linda, serious question re the sugars: if you plant, say, Grenache, Pinot, Nebbiolo and Malbec side by side, won’t they each have different sugar levels at any given time in response to the same inputs?

Otherwise why do Piemontese vignerons harvest Dolcetto, then Barbera, then Nebbiolo with a three to five week spread?

I guess I have a problem with her phrasing. To be precise, she should have made a comment about different grape varieties ripening at different rates. To say one grape variety is inherently higher than sugar than another is an imprecise statement. If you pick them all at 27 Brix, they all have the same sugar, regardless of when you picked them, no?

[Roberto_Rogness]

Yes, but isn’t it a lot EASIER to get Zin or Grenache that ripe than Pinot or Nebbiolo?

[Peter_Kleban]

@Linda Baehr

@Roberto Rogness

Linda, serious question re the sugars: if you plant, say, Grenache, Pinot, Nebbiolo and Malbec side by side, won’t they each have different sugar levels at any given time in response to the same inputs?

Otherwise why do Piemontese vignerons harvest Dolcetto, then Barbera, then Nebbiolo with a three to five week spread?

I guess I have a problem with her phrasing. To be precise, she should have made a comment about different grape varieties ripening at different rates. To say one grape variety is inherently higher than sugar than another is an imprecise statement. If you pick them all at 27 Brix, they all have the same sugar, regardless of when you picked them, no?

Does the alcohol content also depend on how long you let the wine ferment? Or do you just let it go until it’s done?

[Linda_Baehr]

@Roberto Rogness

Yes, but isn’t it a lot EASIER to get Zin or Grenache that ripe than Pinot or Nebbiolo?

Grenache, not so much
If that is what she meant, she should have said it that way. I knew what she was getting at, she just didn’t state it clearly.

[Bob_Wood]

Lettie has issues. She likes to write in a fashion that’s designed to make people think she’s a sophisticated wine drinker and a geek, when in fact she’s woefully under-prepared and under-knowledgeable. Hence, she makes statements that either make her sound as though she’s a true wine snob, or she makes sweeping generalizations that most of us would like to call her on.

[Scott_Manlin]

@Bob Wood

Lettie has issues. She likes to write in a fashion that’s designed to make people think she’s a sophisticated wine drinker and a geek, when in fact she’s woefully under-prepared and under-knowledgeable. Hence, she makes statements that either make her sound as though she’s a true wine snob, or she makes sweeping generalizations that most of us would like to call her on.

Not only is that patently false, it is absurd in its premise. She is neither a wine snob, nor a wine geek. She pretends at nothing and there isn’t a pretentious bone in her body. While it is reasonable to have a quibble with the way some things are explained or presented, that quibble is stylistic, not substantive. To suggest that she is either under-prepared and under-knowledgeable is a clear demonstration of how little you know of her or her work.

[Linda_Baehr]

@Peter Kleban

@Linda Baehr

@Roberto Rogness

Linda, serious question re the sugars: if you plant, say, Grenache, Pinot, Nebbiolo and Malbec side by side, won’t they each have different sugar levels at any given time in response to the same inputs?

Otherwise why do Piemontese vignerons harvest Dolcetto, then Barbera, then Nebbiolo with a three to five week spread?

I guess I have a problem with her phrasing. To be precise, she should have made a comment about different grape varieties ripening at different rates. To say one grape variety is inherently higher than sugar than another is an imprecise statement. If you pick them all at 27 Brix, they all have the same sugar, regardless of when you picked them, no?

Does the alcohol content also depend on how long you let the wine ferment? Or do you just let it go until it’s done?

If you let (or if the yeaties allow) your juice go dry, textbook cases will give you a sugar/alcohol conversion rate of approx 0.59- so if your grapes are 25 Brix, you can count on ~14.75% alcohol. Of course, HOW dry your ferment goes, and other variables, can change that number. Sometimes your juice will be physiologically dry, but still have up to 0.25% RS. Sometimes a fermentation will stick if the grapes were extremely sweet. Then your alcohol will be less than the conversion rate, but it will more than likely still be high if the sugar was high enough to produce enough EtOH to kill your yeast.

[Bob_Wood]

@Scott Manlin

@Bob Wood

Lettie has issues. She likes to write in a fashion that’s designed to make people think she’s a sophisticated wine drinker and a geek, when in fact she’s woefully under-prepared and under-knowledgeable. Hence, she makes statements that either make her sound as though she’s a true wine snob, or she makes sweeping generalizations that most of us would like to call her on.

Not only is that patently false, it is absurd in its premise. She is neither a wine snob, nor a wine geek. She pretends at nothing and there isn’t a pretentious bone in her body. While it is reasonable to have a quibble with the way some things are explained or presented, that quibble is stylistic, not substantive. To suggest that she is either under-prepared and under-knowledgeable is a clear demonstration of how little you know of her or her work.

I can read, Scott, and that’s all I need. I don’t have to know Lettie personally for my BS detector to activate, and you’re only proving my point when you state that she’s neither a snob nor a geek. I didn’t claim she was. What I said was that she writes in a fashion that’s designed to make us think she is.

I’d suggest that perhaps you’re too close to the situation to be objective.

[Scott_Manlin]

@Bob Wood

@Scott Manlin

@Bob Wood

Lettie has issues. She likes to write in a fashion that’s designed to make people think she’s a sophisticated wine drinker and a geek, when in fact she’s woefully under-prepared and under-knowledgeable. Hence, she makes statements that either make her sound as though she’s a true wine snob, or she makes sweeping generalizations that most of us would like to call her on.

Not only is that patently false, it is absurd in its premise. She is neither a wine snob, nor a wine geek. She pretends at nothing and there isn’t a pretentious bone in her body. While it is reasonable to have a quibble with the way some things are explained or presented, that quibble is stylistic, not substantive. To suggest that she is either under-prepared and under-knowledgeable is a clear demonstration of how little you know of her or her work.

I can read, Scott, and that’s all I need. I don’t have to know Lettie personally for my BS detector to activate, and you’re only proving my point when you state that she’s neither a snob nor a geek. I didn’t claim she was. What I said was that she writes in a fashion that’s designed to make us think she is.

I’d suggest that perhaps you’re too close to the situation to be objective.

Hardly. But her work extends WAY beyond her wine matters column. That is something you do not know a thing about. You comment to her intent. Yet you do not know her, have never met her, and haven’t a clue about what her intent is. On the other hand, I am very familiar with her work, I know her quite well, have spent countless hours with her all over the country and in Europe and I know many of her friends. So yeah, I think I can speak to her intent. Heck, I just got off the phone with her. I can also say with certainty, objective certainty, you do not have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. I would make any bet that her knowledge of wine in both breadth and detail is so far beyond your own it would be laughable. For you to call her, comparatively, under-knowledgeable, is laughable.