French Pronunciation Again

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Otto Forsberg
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#51 Post by Otto Forsberg »

Jonathan Loesberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 7:52 am So why are the s's in Athos and Porthos pronounced, but not the s in Aramis?
Is not? I've always thought they all are pronounced with the final s.

With some googling I learned that Aramis comes from the place name "Aramitz", which would lead to the conclusion that no, the final s there is not silent.
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#52 Post by Neal.Mollen »

John Morris wrote: July 26th, 2021, 8:01 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 7:49 am I grew up in a suburb of NYC and never heard aunt pronounced other than ant, except as an affectation in New England. I think it's more British. At any rate, to my ear that pronunciation rhymes more with font than with taunt. I apologize to anyone who grew up pronouncing it this way for suggesting that it's and affectation, but to me the pronunciation was about as rare as tomahto, which I first heard in the Gershwin song.
I live in NYC and the back vowel "aunt" is very common if not dominant. I'll have to listen carefully now and see if I can distinguish who uses which vowel. Having come from the West Coast, I'm a bit self-conscious about using the flatter, frontal pronunciation sometimes.

But maybe I just move in posh circles.... [snort.gif]
It may come as a surprise, but NYC + Boston are not the same as "East Coast." Savanah is East Coast too.
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#53 Post by Jonathan Loesberg »

Otto Forsberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 8:05 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 7:52 am So why are the s's in Athos and Porthos pronounced, but not the s in Aramis?
Is not? I've always thought they all are pronounced with the final s.

With some googling I learned that Aramis comes from the place name "Aramitz", which would lead to the conclusion that no, the final s there is not silent.
In French films, it is always silent. Here is the pronunciation on Youtube


Finally, as far as Dumas is concerned, the name comes from Courtilz' Memoires d'Artagnan and that novel gives the name simply as a nom de guerre. Dumas would have taken it as such. The google statement that it comes from some friend's name is at the least questionable. Dumas may have had such a friend, but his source was Courtilz.

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#54 Post by Otto Forsberg »

Jonathan Loesberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 8:26 am In French films, it is always silent. Here is the pronunciation on Youtube
So, apparently, the final s is, as I thought, not silent.

Haven't seen the French films, so can't comment them.
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#55 Post by Jonathan Loesberg »

Otto Forsberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 9:02 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 8:26 am In French films, it is always silent. Here is the pronunciation on Youtube
So, apparently, the final s is, as I thought, not silent.

Haven't seen the French films, so can't comment them.
Do you here a final s in the youtube I appended? Do others? I do not.

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#56 Post by Neal.Mollen »

Jonathan Loesberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 9:11 am
Otto Forsberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 9:02 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote: July 26th, 2021, 8:26 am In French films, it is always silent. Here is the pronunciation on Youtube
So, apparently, the final s is, as I thought, not silent.

Haven't seen the French films, so can't comment them.
Do you here a final s in the youtube I appended? Do others? I do not.
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#57 Post by Jonathan Loesberg »

I must be hallucinating. I yield to the judgment of others.

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#58 Post by John Morris »

Neal.Mollen wrote: July 26th, 2021, 8:14 am It may come as a surprise, but NYC + Boston are not the same as "East Coast." Savanah is East Coast too.
And many NYC and Boston vowels are different.

But I have two good friends from Virginia who use the back-vowel form of "aunt," so it clearly extends south of the Northeast.
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#59 Post by John Morris »

I guess this map explains my Virginian friends, both from the Tidewater area.
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#60 Post by Neal.Mollen »

John Morris wrote: July 26th, 2021, 9:51 am I guess this map explains my Virginian friends, both from the Tidewater area.
But not your New Yorker friends?

I think that map is ridiculously over-simplified
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#61 Post by Julian Marshall »

This is a minefield!

Armailhac - Otto nailed it. Definitely Yak, as in Robert A's taste.

French words ending in "C" - I know a family called Fioc - the C is silent. Every "rule" has its exceptions!

Aramis - the S is definitely sounded, as in the video.

Basically, it is best to ask someone - but even then, there can be surprises.

I assumed Durfort-Vivens was pronounced "Derfort veevons", and you'll find countless videos on Youtube where people claim that it is, until I heard Claire Villars-Lurton pronounce it "Derfort veevans", and being married to Gonzague, I expect she would know! Mind you, she also said Kiervon when talking about Kirwan, rather than the Kier-wun pronunciation I have always heard, so who can say?

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#62 Post by John Morris »

Neal.Mollen wrote: July 26th, 2021, 9:52 am
John Morris wrote: July 26th, 2021, 9:51 am I guess this map explains my Virginian friends, both from the Tidewater area.
But not your New Yorker friends?

I think that map is ridiculously over-simplified
No, as I said above, I hear the deeper, back-vowel form very frequently in New York.
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#63 Post by John Morris »

Julian Marshall wrote: July 26th, 2021, 9:54 am This is a minefield!

Armailhac - Otto nailed it. Definitely Yak, as in Robert A's taste.

French words ending in "C" - I know a family called Fioc - the C is silent. Every "rule" has its exceptions!

...
But the C in Floc de Gascogne is pronounced, right, as it is on Armagnac? Presumably because those are Gascon words.

What about Dujac? It's pronounced there, right?
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#64 Post by Julian Marshall »

John Morris wrote: July 26th, 2021, 10:00 am
Julian Marshall wrote: July 26th, 2021, 9:54 am This is a minefield!

Armailhac - Otto nailed it. Definitely Yak, as in Robert A's taste.

French words ending in "C" - I know a family called Fioc - the C is silent. Every "rule" has its exceptions!

...
But the C in Floc de Gascogne is pronounced, right, as it is on Armagnac? Presumably because those are Gascon words.

What about Dujac? It's pronounced there, right?
Absolutely!

We haven’t mentioned Z - down here (I’m in Cap Ferret - annoyingly no T - it’s normally sounded, like Pez or Orthez.

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#65 Post by Julian Marshall »

A prize for this one: Oeryeluy!

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#66 Post by Andrew K. »

let's at least spell it right! Oeyreluy

ou-air-louis
к𝓁ย𝐠

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#67 Post by John Morris »

Andrew K. wrote: July 26th, 2021, 10:23 am let's at least spell it right! Oeyreluy

ou-air-louis
Time to get the snacks ready for this one.

[popcorn.gif]
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#68 Post by Julian Marshall »

Right spelling - thanks Andrew!
But not the right pronunciation. It’s a tough one which I had to check with my Landaise wife!
I’ll tell you tomorrow!

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#69 Post by Robert Sand »

John Morris wrote: July 26th, 2021, 10:00 am
What about Dujac? It's pronounced there, right?

Dujac itself is an abbrevation ...
Domaine du Jacques (Seysses) = Dujac ...
so sure c is pronounced ...
duJac(ques) is silent.

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#70 Post by John Morris »

Duh. Thanks for reminding me, Robert.
"But they told me there would be a hand basket."

"I penciled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#71 Post by Otto Forsberg »

Andrew K. wrote: July 26th, 2021, 10:23 am let's at least spell it right! Oeyreluy

ou-air-louis
I'd guess oo-air-e-lewey, but most likely it's not a French but an Occitan (or something) name, so those vowels will most likely throw a curveball.
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#72 Post by Phil T r o t t e r »

Julian Marshall wrote: July 26th, 2021, 10:15 am A prize for this one: Oeryeluy!
In French I think it sounds a little like: Ou-air-l-oeil.

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#73 Post by Julian Marshall »

Phil T r o t t e r wrote: July 26th, 2021, 8:13 pm
Julian Marshall wrote: July 26th, 2021, 10:15 am A prize for this one: Oeryeluy!
In French I think it sounds a little like: Ou-air-l-oeil.
champagne.gif

We have a winner!

This caused much debate at dinner last night, my wife insisting it was “err a loy (like boy)”, so like in Who Wants To Be A Millionaire” I had to phone a friend - my son - who went to school nearby, who confirmed it is pronounced like this:

Broken down into components it gives:

“Ooh air a le oy” as Phil says,

So in real terms, it sounds like

“Where a loy”.

Tough one!

Phil, you win a seat at Michel Rolland’s lecture tour of Canada, where he will present his new paper:

“Freshness, Authenticity and Terroir (FAT), where I went wrong”

Also, my apologies to Andrew - I forgot to reply to his query about Lit-et-Mixe - I’m not a linguist so I don’t know the rule but the T is not normally sounded with lit (eg un lit et un oreiller). Just another of those Gascon traps - like the département The Lot (sounded T) or Lot-et-Garonne.

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#74 Post by Otto Forsberg »

Like I said, there came a real curveball. :D I have no idea how the locals manage to make that -luy into -loy, but if the place is in the south or southwest, the pronunciation rules for the local languages are always full of surprises! Or then they have a different, local historical name for the place and that Oeryeluy is just a French approximation of the local name, not entirely corresponding to how they pronounce it. Does anybody know more about this?
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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#75 Post by Julian Marshall »

I’m fairly certain that Oeyreluy is Gascon. Luy is the name of a river next to it, so I’m guessing that Oeyre means a crossing or a ford, because there is another village further south called Oeyregave, also next to a river called the Gave.
Talk about a rabbit hole!

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Re: French Pronunciation Again

#76 Post by Phil T r o t t e r »

Julian Marshall wrote: July 27th, 2021, 1:50 am <...>
Phil, you win a seat at Michel Rolland’s lecture tour of Canada, where he will present his new paper:

“Freshness, Authenticity and Terroir (FAT), where I went wrong”
<...>
It's "ah-boot" time I won something! I just hope Michel's lecture in Montreal won't be on April 1st of next year since I'm already attending another lecture: Bodacious Superlatives (BS), how to describe your wine in the 21st century.

I'm keeping busy...

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