I enjoy Sake, but really don’t know too much about the differences between the various types/grades. I thought I would take a few for a spin at home. Can anyone provide any insights into any or all of the following options, or make other recs.?
Sake may be the most versatile drink there is, love it with fried chicken, savory dishes, rich dishes, and even bright acidic dishes…different styles pair so well.
Not a big fan of Honjozo due to higher alcohol and a bit rougher palate. One of my favorites is Watari Bune 55. Anything with Joto as importer is pretty stellar stuff along with Vine Connections.
I have spent better part of 10 years growing Sake in the WA., and love it with a ton of dishes. Even prefer sparkling Sake over Coors Light after working in yard if I have some handy in the fridge, like Hou Hou Shou.
About 10 years ago, I really thought sake would be the “next big thing” here in the US and spent quite a bit of time and effort studying and tasting it under the tutelage of Griffin Frost and John Gauntner. Personally love the stuff; professionally, can’t give it away. John’s website sake-world.com is a good reference point in English http://www.sake-world.com
–Try nigori (cloudy) sake with spicy Szechuan food sometime - can be a fantastic match with something incredibly difficult to pair, particular if the sake is slightly off-dry.
–Look for something called “yamahai.” It’s analagous to natural yeast fermentation in wine (oversimplification, but that’s the gist) and produces a wild, funky aroma and taste that I absolutely love.
Sake is fascinating - it actually has considerably more complexity than wine does, from a chemical perspective (perception being another thing, largely learned) and incredible variation. Some of my favorites are the fresh, unpasturized versions that you normally can’t get outside Japan (though they are starting to be available sometimes) because they don’t really travel and because of dumb laws.
On a personal note, I don’t get hungover from sake, despite the high alcohol, and I’ve been on some real benders…And for me, it’s an incredibly pleasant buzz, very happy without being sleepy.
+1 on Joto Sake. Henry Siedel has a great portfolio including many of the best producers in many of the top prefectures. SakeOne (Momokawa) in Oregon makes very credible ginjo sake and is developing a very nice list of imports as well. Any of you touring the Oregon wine country would be advised to stop by.
I’ve been told they don’t tend to drink sake with sushi in Japan. It has always seemed like a terrible pairing to me, with the sake overpowering the fish and lingering too much on the palate (yes, even a high quality junmai daiginjo), but I also don’t like sake, so maybe I just don’t get it.
They drink sake with sashimi, not sushi, for the most part. Or that’s the traditional arrangement anyway. It’s the rice with rice-product thing they avoid, though, not a matter of sake overpowering the fish. I can’t say that’s an experience I share in general, the overwhelming thing. They also drink sake with vegetables and grilled fish and fermented fish and tofu products of all sorts etc. etc. I love sake with most Japanese food, though I also like champagne and occasionally the right red with meats. That said, we cooked the most incredible steak and eggs for breakfast in Kyoto once, with matsuzaka beef, and drank it with an ishobin of Kikuhime, which is about the epitome of yamahai specialists…I didn’t miss red wine one bit.
So much of it is just what your palate has learned. We shared some great Bordeaux, classic CA cabs from the '80s, and a burgundy or two with a group of sake nuts we drink with regularly in Tokyo when we were all out at an isakaya, and they all thought the wine was … eh. Fine, but boring.
We drink Sakei with many different types of foods, mainly Izakaya, sashimi, sushi, but other foods as well. Our local Izakaya called Izanami currently has 34 Sakeis for 7 weeks. One repeat. Depends on the food which one will come out better. Sakei is making a comeback in Japan as more is being sold than in the more recent past. Fell out of favor for a while due to development of more distilleries making more Whiskeys. Trying to develop a wine industry in Japan but we have tried most of them and found them pretty bad. Sakei has more variety in taste and textures than wine IMHO.
I love saké but know almost nothing about it. There is a cool producer in OR called SakéOne. I’ve only had a couple of their bottles, but they were delicious.
I’m not yet a sophisticate when it comes to sake, however, I do love me a bottle of Momokawa Pearl. Something about the unfiltered texture that hits home with a precision sliced sashimi. Thanks for the dinner plans!
I am curious about this comment. It has higher levels of some chemicals yes but lacks some of the acids that comprise wine. In terms of complexity the phenolics alone and the varieties of grapes vs. the types of rice used in Sake I think point to the dramatic difference in complexity of wine vs. Sake.
Sake, while a wonderful pairing with some things, is far more limited in flavor profile than wine. I enjoy it with some things, but primarily I enjoy it on its own for how it presents itself as a whole effort from the producer, region, style.
Thanks, I didn’t know the details. I know none of it works for me. All sake tastes boozy (unbalanced) and like stale beer to me, even some pretty high-end ones I’ve had, and I have tried quite a few different ones. I’ll keep tasting them whenever I get the chance, but I don’t expect them to grow on me.
Sake is chemically more complex, by almost a factor of two. This is not an opinion question, it is science. The multiple parallel fermentation processes make for more chemical complexity. It, of course, does not have that thing that only red wines have - it can’t and shouldn’t. The strokes are not as broad, as sake is more subtle. IF you are talking about broader range of differences in wine and sake, I would again say that the variations are as numerous, but agree that the spectrum may not be as broad.
You can talk about complexity in two senses: chemical and perception. Chemically, sake is more complex. That can’t be argued. As to perception of complexity, as I said originally, it is largely dictated by what the palate has learned and what is expected. You find sake less complex, limited in its flavor profile, as compared to wine. My sake friends in Japan feel the same way about wine - they feel that it’s limited and boring.
I am not in the least arguing that anyone should like sake more than they do. Only offering interesting facts about the beverage and about some people who drink it religiously.
I would love to learn more about this chemical complexity. Would you have data resources you can share for me to read? It is my understanding that the reverse of what you have said is true and I would be curious to see data that refutes that. Chemical complexity can only come from base product and that may be where I am missing something.
So for complexity with respect to chemical composition, we will have to set that aside until more data is available.
As to complexity via perception, although past experiences tasting and reference points will in fact frame our explanations of what we perceive, these same experiences and reference points in no way dictate what we are capable perceiving. I would suggest that is more to do with training and innate ability much like playing music.
In my 25 years living here and being quite involved in the F&B industry, I have never encountered anyone, whether Japanese or otherwise, who considers wine limited and boring. Given the common denominator of us all having human tongues and olfactory receptors, and the associated ranges of perceptable compounds, it would be quite absurd to describe wine in that way vis a vis sake or shochu.
I do, on the other hand, know a large number of people who hands down prefer sake and shochu to wine. This is personal preference however.
Capable? There’s no way of measuring what someone is “capable” of. But we all have seen examples of how conditions, experiences and history heavily influence perception. Labels can skew what we think of a wine. Putting a wine in a dark glass can inhibit the ability to tell white from red. The shape of the bottle can lead people to expect residual sugar…there are dozens of these examples. Cultural biases are part of that. Are people “capable” of transcending those factors? Probably, if you’re asking my opinion. But they often don’t in any given moment.
Not at all to dismiss your impressive 25 years of credentials, but I assure you there are those who consider wine limited in comparison to sake, just as you consider sake limited in comparison to wine. If I gave the impression that I am asserting the existence of groups of Japanese who think “wine is boring,” then I apologize. I was repeating opinions relative to sake. Again, I am not taking either side of this argument, which to me is an opinion question. I like and admire them both. I am only stating that learned signals can heavily influence our perceptions.
I will look for the supporting data on chemical complexity. I don’t have it immediately to hand. My understanding is that complexity can also come from the processes to which the base materials are subjected.
I would suggest that the entire principle behind what is called the Systematic Approach to Tasting Wine as proffered by WSET does in fact allow us to set aside preconceptions. Wine tasting in sub-par conditions does happen (I personally prefer the sub-par conditions of 1A on a 747 ), but when being done as part of an evaluation for quality by a producer or other evaluators, it is more likely than not that no bottle will be in sight, and conditions will be optimal.
Whether measured or not, the capabilities of the human body will remain generally equal across a broad enough sample of wine and sake drinkers. Whether they possess specialized knowledge or experience in how to discern flavor or aroma nuances is another question.
I guess I would term it less of an opinion question though. If those factors which the human being is capable of discerning, and more importantly a large enough number of human beings to make it a commercially viable effort, are greater in wine than it would seem an empirical fact.
But ultimately this is, in its entirety just my opinion for now.
Processes and materials, climate and storage, time and myriad other factors will influence complexity I agree.
FWIW I have always found these discussions lead to some really fun and Designated Driver necessary offlines.
Sounds like we would definitely enjoy some experiments together! In the end, it comes down to putting glass to lips and seeing what the brain, nose, tongue and other sensory organs experience. I am an equal opportunity drinker, and love more than anything the process of learning. We’ll reach out when we are in Tokyo next.
), but when being done as part of an evaluation for quality by a producer or other evaluators, it is more likely than not that no bottle will be in sight, and conditions will be optimal.