I’ve never understood ordering wine (specifically Red Wine) at restaurants for various reasons. But maybe I’m missing something. If so, I’d love to hear why.
Looking past the insane markups, I’d like to understand the decanting problem. Unless you go to a restaurant that’s premise is to be centered on the wine, the bottle selection is going to have young wines that aren’t near their recommended drinking dates or at the front ends. This problem can be lessened with a good decant and time to breathe. However, you rarely have the time for this once you sit down.
So my cost-benefit analysis kicks in I try to rationalize why I should grossly overpay for a bottle of wine that I know won’t be fully opened up in terms of its potential.
I usually order white whenever I have to order a bottle at dinner, but at a steakhouse or with similar food I’m always scratching my head why.
Jeff,
I simply agree - but that´s what it is …
(as long as customers are willing to pay the high mark-ups).
I guess you are talking about the US-situation, but here in Europe it´s usually similar.
However in France, if you know where to go, you have some alternatives … at least finding wines closer to maturity … and the mark-ups in restaurants situated in or around wine-regions are sometimes more human (if you don´t go only to the 3 or 4 star adresses)
Some other solutions:
1st drink a white wine, in the meantime order the red to be decanted …
reserve a table at noon and select a wine from the list for evening, pay an account and order it to be decanted some hours in advance …
bring your own (carefully prepared) bottle …
(stay at home, order a catering - and drink your own wine )
There is your problem.
And I say that with all due respect, as I have pretty much the same problem.
I rarely order wine at restaurants anymore, preferring mixed drinks or craft beers; the one exception is if I am ordering steak - I don’t care about the mark-up anymore if I’m eating red meat, I’ll always order wine.
That is part of what you are missing. Most lower to medium priced red wines on restaurant lists are perfectly fine to pop and pour, especially to your typical diner who isn’t searching for tertiary notes of olive tapenade and pencil lead.
There are restaurants who have interesting wines, markups that aren’t crazy, and sometimes wines that have enough maturity, and you can seek those places out. There are also times when a decent but not thrilling wine is a nice accompaniment to your dinner - you go to an Italian restaurant, order a solid Barbera or Chianti off the list for $30-45, pop and pour, and while it’s not something to go write a post on WB about, it works perfectly nicely.
For those of us fortunate to be in BYO states, that’s usually the best option. So I don’t order very often off lists, but it can be done, and it can make sense. And sometimes, your wine geekiness pays off, and you look through the large list of mostly dull, overpriced and/or too-young wines, and you find one or two bottles that are going to be good and are at a decent price. Many lists have that diamond in the rough if you have the eye to find it.
Ordering wine at a restaurant is like ordering a beer at a baseball game or eating out of the mini bar. Overpriced. Often not interesting or good. But it can add to the experience nevertheless. You just have to look at it not as buying a $20 wine for $50, but rather as spending $50 to marginally add to your experience. I think wine people actually get too hung up on this because we spend so much time and energy searching for bargains and cherrypicking wines we want that it’s maddening to overpay for stuff we’re not that interested in. But taking a step back, sometimes it’s worth it to just stick your head in the sand and drink some overpriced wine that goes will with the food. That said, I often go the craft beer route.
I BYO at restaurants. Rarely ever buy wine. If the wines needs time to breathe I open it home before I get to the restaurant. If I can’t bring my own wine, I jsust order drinks
I agree with Ryan. I usually bring wine as well, but sometimes it is nice to forget you’re a wine geek for a night. To each his or her own, of course, as priorities differ, but I find it nice sometimes to relax and not worry about perfect decant time or what I can buy that same wine for at retail. As others have said, there are plenty of reds that don’t require a decant, and plenty of them are servicable or more than serviceable - especially in much of Europe. Admittedly, I tend not to go to places where the lists are so totally horrible that I can’t find something palatable, and if I do, I’ll have a cocktail before and drink water during dinner. I like wine with food and I like food with wine, and I’m ok if the wine isn’t always perfect. If I worried too much about things like that, I’d never go out, not only because the wine won’t be as good as I can have at home, but also because the food often won’t be either!
I barely eat in restaurants anymore for this reason. And the steak is better at home. When I do eat out, it’s at a wine friendly place and I use that to drink something special from my cellar.
Only common exceptions for me are France and Switzerland, where you get great mature wines at less than current retail since they usually bought them years ago. There’s a restaurant in Geneva I always go to for great steak and 2000 Leoville Poyferre (~$135/bt off the list). Thinking about it, there’s also a club in HK that has 2003 Leoville Poyferre for <$100/bt together with a world-class steak tartar. Mmmm…
There’s nothing better than a great bottle of wine with a great dinner, but a good bottle of wine with a great dinner comes pretty close. Even at a typical US restaurant with 2-3x markups, you can get a bottle off the list for $60-90 that will be “good”.
I can’t imagine eating great food without wine, even if the wine is not sublime.
Sometimes there are restaurants which will have older bottles priced off their historical cost base, not current replacement value, nor auction value. That may not be economically ‘correct’ but they also can’t be bothered to print up a fresh wine list all the time. Sometimes one might be able to buy a wine, that when storage, and the cost of capital over a decade or two, are fairly assessed, one can get a decent enough deal.
But that admittedly is not a frequent set of circumstances.
I once remember getting a 20 year old Dunn for ~$100 in a place that ran their wine list like the above. However despite decanting, and all the aeration efforts, it was still an Angry Young Man of a wine.
Not to sound too cheeky, but I have been cooking for years and making a restaurant quality steak at home is possible. Mind you it takes a lot of effort, especially if go a all the way by making sides and a demi-glace / bernaise or the such. Not terribly difficult, just a bid time-consuming.
Sometimes I would just rather pay someone else $55 to cook my ribeye for me.
The trade generally has access to the better pieces of meat within Prime category, or if ungraded, to specialty purveyors who are selling better than Prime meat.
And they have hotter grills, so they can get a better sear. I thought I read somewhere that Ruths Chris can get up to 1100F on their grill. At home the best I’m going to be able to do is 400-600F with what I have.
All that being said, if I’m spending money on dining out, I’d like to get something that I cannot replicate (or even make any attempt) at home. Peking Duck is something totally worth paying for!
This problem frustrates me so much I actually don’t even offer bottles at Nodoguro. I choose wines that work with the food, open them ahead if needed, and pour them by the glass at the correct temp. but I’m a geek like that. This thread, however is about managing a list with young reds.
I generally agree with your frustration. Most lists in Portland are current release wines which, even if decanted, aren’t really near peak. It’s expensive infanticide. I like (and employ) the solution of ordering a wine or bubbles while decanting the red. Most places will also comp a corkage if you buy off the list so I buy the white and bring the red, taste the server and somm on it, buy the kitchen a 6 pack, etc.
Mine is hotter… Have a 6-burner Beefeater premium grill with smoking chips, and fat deflectors. I buyer from wholesalers whole tenderloins of beef. Apply an Italian wet rub of basil, coriander, garlic, Rosemary and salt/pepper. Leave in fridge for 2 days. Tie the ends, sear the 4 sides at high heat then indirectly cook to raise the temperature whilst smoking. When chosen inside temperature is reached, rest under foil for 10mins in warm plate. Outside is crispy, and smokey red meat runs right to the edge and zero blood/moisture loss. Then slice nice big chunks for each person. Works really well with veal too. I do this a few times a month - inc last Sunday. Accompanied with mags on the table it beats any steakhouse I know.
Plus I’ve got crystal skull vodka for the aperatiff and vintage glenrothes afterwards. Champagne before steak just doesn’t cut it for me…
Maybe I have an over-inflated view of my abilities, but given the right raw meat, I can do steaks on my Big Green Egg that rival any steakhouse. That’s the main reason I pretty much never go to steakhouses. What I can’t do at home is killer sushi, tasting menus, etc. – which is why I focus on those places.
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