TN: 2012 Thierry Germain Domaine des Roches Neuves Les Memoires, Saumur Champigny - Not Rougeard

All of us geeks are looking for the next Rougeard. Rougeard is like d’Yquem, in a class of its own. We hear a lot of buzz about new estates, like Guiberteau and Domaine des Roches Neuves, as being next in line, filling in the void as Rougeard prices most of us out. These domaines are still not there, not even close.

I just popped a 2010 Rougeard base domaine last week, the thread got some fun attention by our local Loire geeky expert, Chris Kissack a/k/a Wine Doctor. I always appreciate his palate and insight on all things Loire. He’s a big fan of this domaine. I keep sampling bottles and vintages, some are major winners, others are nice, some fail to impress. The Franc de Pied bottling is, IMHO, the best of class.

As I loved the 2012 Franc de Pied, I assumed I would be floored by this special cuvee, which is comprised of 112 year-old vines, half of which is original root stock. Sadly, in this vintage, this wine just does not have that extra gear to command a $60+ dollar price point for a Loire Cab Franc. I will concede this wine is young, but these are new cuvees so someone has to give some input, fair or not. What this wine lacks for me is depth of fruit. The range of red fruit is very tart, very tight. Bear in mind that I like slightly under-ripe fruit. This is lip-smackingly tart, like a sweet tart of one flavor. Here on night two, nothing has changed, it immutable. I saved 1/2 glass in this bottle, stuck it in the fridge, to see what happens on night three.

I know this sounds exceedingly critical. It is a very nice wine. Lovely texture on the finish, a fine, grainy minerailty and crisp tannins. I’m critical because of the cost. I’d buy this wine all day long at $20-$25, which is the price point on many very good Loire CFs. For example, Baudry’s 2014 Les Granges, one of its basic cuvees, is a better wine and I picked it up at $16.99. I may buy the 2014 Les Memoires, giving this domaine the benefit of the doubt with this lovely parcel, taking a shot that a killer year like 2014 showcases what can be done here. I have the 2013, but that is an even leaner year.
(89 pts.)

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My earlier notes on the 2012 Clos de L’echelier and the Franc de Pied:

And

Thanks for the notes.
Do you know when Thierry germain style shifted ? I remember tasting some 04 and 05 Marginale and Saumur which were good but not mind boggling. I read that he adapted his winemaking and biodynamic farming kicked in as well.

His early style, to me, showed too much influence of oak, the Marginale in particular. The wines seems more fresh now, but I am only starting to check back in so not sure of the transition.

I agree. It’s a little hard to see what many people are getting so excited about (here in Europe as well). Sanzay, Germain, Guiberteau… OK wines, but, so far, not much more than that.

I have no interest in paying these prices to find out whether these producers are any good when there is so much great wine from the region with verified history behind it for much less money. Paying a lot for Rougeard, or for well aged cellar releases from Raffault and others makes sense. Paying close to that for a new project seems less than smart to me.

It was pure curiosity, perhaps a little frivolous, but it’s part of the fun. The Frand de Pied, however, was totally worth the fare.

Excellent thread & agreed that the focus on the “next Rougeard” is pretty silly. Are the prices up in Europe as well? I’ve enjoyed Guibertau & Collier stuff, but the pricing is difficult. Importers are casting Saumur as the new Vosne Romanee while top level Chinon, Bourgeuil, Vouvray & Savinnieres crank out producers with decades of track record at a much lower price.

I’m not knocking your choice, just saying I don’t want to be the guinea pig at those rates. 2012 is, IMO, not a very good vintage either, so a rough one to use as an indicator.

No worries, I did not take that personally. And I agree that 2012, and even 2013, are tough guinea pigs at that price. As I noted, I will try one more vintage, 2014, to see if I am wowed! Yes, money could be better placed right now in known a quantum.

This is a very interesting point. I think you’re right that a big part of the Saumur craziness is the Rougeard effect. That said, Saumur “terroir” (or whatever you want to call it), produces very unique wines, particularly aromatically. This Loire drinker probably prefers Saumur, when done well, to Chinon and Bourguiel, though I often enjoy those appellations a great deal. I’ve never had Rougeard, unfortunately, but I find Hureau to be fantastic and would pay twice what they charge for their wines. Have also really enjoyed Filliatreau as a QPR. I’ve had far less luck with Germain, Guiberteau and Yvonne, and will happily buy the usual suspects from Chinon, Bourgeuil and elsewhere (Baudry, Joguet, Breton, CRB (RIP), Pallus, Guion, Raffault, Lenoir, Amirault et al) over those wines, usually at much more attractive prices.

I’ll flaunt the undiscerning limits of my palate by saying that there is no way I could distinguish a Saumur wine from a Bourgueil. My two favorite Loire Cab Franc wines are Rougeard’s Clos and Breton’s FdP. I find them very close in flavor profile and similar in style too, with their purity/transparency of fruit. (Rougeard takes it up a notch usually.) But I’m pretty sure I could not distinguish any terroir difference between those wines.

OTOH, on the basis of the one and only Hureau wine I have tried (on your rec., Levi :slight_smile:) I did that find to be quite distinctive and quite unlike Rougeard/Breton. Agree too, that it’s aromatics were very distinctive (floral and blue fruits rather than green pepper and graphite). I assumed that was a style difference rather than a terroir distinction. Again, my palate has quite a few blind spots sometimes so a pinch of salt, and all htat.

I won’t be so brazen as to say that I can pick out Saumur in a blind line-up of Loire reds. I like to think I could, but have certainly been humbled/humiliated in most the blind tastings I’ve done, which are few and far between, so I’ll assume that in reality I couldn’t pick them out. In my experience of Saumur, though, I’ve found more of that lifted, floral aromatics than in the other appellations. There’s often still some of the green bell pepper profile, but there’s an added floral/ethereal dimension. When drinking them non-blind, I usually think to myself “yep - that smells like Saumur”.

Full disclosure: I haven’t lately been drinking as much Loire as I used to - been on a Burgundy kick for the past year or so.

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This, exactly. But I also doubt that I would have an impressive blind track record if I had to pick out the Saumurs in a line-up with Chinon and Bourgieul.

That’s interesting. Now that I have a very strong sense from Hureau of what you describe as distinctively Saumur (floral/ethereality) I shall have to try some other Saumurs to see if I can pick it out. I have a Domaine des Roches Neuves Terres Chaudes that I’ve been meaning to open. This will make a good experiment over the coming week. [cheers.gif]

Will be interested to hear your thoughts on the Germain, generally and in terms of typicity/Saumur expressoin.

Also curious as to whether you like the Hureau!

I haven’t tasted the last two or three vintages chez Germain, and I keep hearing people claim that things have changed, but one of the reasons I used to feel they were not as great as they were made out to be was just that: I found them somewhat low on typicity and perhaps a little heavy-handed.

Hureau, definitely. Lisagathe might be my favourite Saumur outside of Rougeard. Ages really well, too.

I’ll post a note on CT. Here is my note on Hureau.
2012 Chateau du Hureau TuffeA very distinctive expression of Loire Cab Franc and quite different from what I am used to (Alliet/Breton/Domaine de La Butte, Baudry and – for special occasions – Rougeard). I don’t think I would have picked this out blind as Cab Franc. In fact, I blinded my partner on it, and she was not able to identify the grape. The nose was completely clean, and a lot more reticent than most Cab franc. I detected none of the expected graphite/ green pepper/plump blackcurrants. Definitely floral, with a broad streak of licorice. The fruit is blue (blueberries), and the herbs go to purple – to lavender – rather than to greenness. Stays pure and lifted through the finish. Once I managed to walk back my expectations for what I expected from Cab franc, I enjoyed this quite a bit. I would pair it with different food next time though. (Its delicate florality did not marry well with our stuffed poblano peppers). Happy to have tried this different (to me) expression of the grape.

Somewhat counterintuitively, I guess, given the name/soil type, I’ve always found the Tuffe (previously called something else, can’t quite remember what :slight_smile: ) to have overt overtones of chalk (or at least something that I perceive as distinctly “chalky”), which is something that I used to find a lot in some young Anjou Rouge wines (Claude Papin, Domaine des Deux Vallees, and others). Other than that, very much in line with Katrina’s TN: blue fruit, dark and aromatic herbs. A very “juicy” wine, more Anjou, than Saumur to me.
(I like it a lot :slight_smile: )

I came back to this to add that I loved the praise on Hureau, and there’s even more! Lisagathe is nearly impossible to find here in Seattle, so I grab Tuffe when I see it.

Katrina’s note sums them up beautifully.

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