Allen Meadows, Burghound.

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
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Victor Hong
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#1 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 12:22 pm

Interesting account.
Maureen Downey wrote:If I were fooled a couple times, I would be outraged and publicly denounce the person/company that used me to perpetrate a fraud.

After the Ponsot scandal, I would CERTAINLY stop working with a company that failed to pull the wines from sale which were definitively never made as Kapon promised to Laurent Ponsot he would do. (Had Kapon pulled them prior to sale, they would have been on the errata/addendum sheet as withdrawn. They were not only not pulled from sale, some bottles were apparently in the room to increase interest from bidders!) As we all know, kapon only withdrew the lots from the podium, once he was informed that *Laurent Ponsot* was in the sale room. But Allen didn't stop, he kept working with John and kept taking Kapons money - that is neither being a victim, nor being fooled.

In 2010: I took AM to lunch, just before he left on what I call/called the "Greenberg apology tour." We were at Le Central in SF, during the ZWA La Paulee auction (which was at Mina). He expressed gratitude for my having steered him correctly about Royal Wine Merchants old DRC being counterfeit years before. I pleaded that as I was correct then, would he please, please listen to me, and trust me, and not go on the eminent tour of Asia with John, to promote the "The Imperial Cellar" which I knew would be chock full of counterfeits.

I was concerned for him, he was a friend. I was sure this was going to be detrimental to him in the long run, as I knew exactly what Greenberg and Kapon were up to - despite the fact that most of the world would not believe me until the verdicts in the Rudy and Greenberg trials came back exactly as I thought they would in 2012 and 2013. Remember, I caught Greenberg & Kapon selling fakes in the Greenberg 2003 Acker sale, as I had vetted Greenberg wines in late 2002 and rejected fakes from his consignment while I was at ZWA. -Quotes, data/info avl on the Kock v Greenberg trial transcript.

At this lunch, AM admitted that he was not totally comfortable with the impending marketing/promotional tour of Greenberg's collection, but that he had been paid, and he would do this one last thing with Acker/Kapon. This is close to 2 years AFTER the Ponsot scandal... Well, last I checked, Burghound still does events with Acker. And I have never heard, nor seen any kind of public denouncement by Burghound, of the fraud that was perpetrated at Acker, nor acknowledgement of the role he played. Had I been used like that, by Rudy, by Greenberg, AND by Kapon/Aker I would be furious, and I would loudly proclaim my indignation to absolve myself of involvement. The silence is deafening...

If you look at Rudy's Post Sale Report for THE CELLAR (Acker Sale 061), you see all the loans from third parties, (despite a lawsuit threat I received for calling them loans, when the post-Sale Report for Acker Sale document says "Loan" I am going to call them loans!) and the payments, including Burghound fees. These are Public Documents.

Interestingly - two people left the country just before the RK trial and did not return until testimony was concluded: Kapon & Meadows. I understand Meadows emails to RK are very damning. If he was not involved, why not be pissed off, as Parker has been when he realized that Royal used him to substantiate & ultimately market Rodenstock wines. At least Parker took it head on, and has been brutally honest about it!

*edited to correct that Ponsot's presence is what caused Kapon to pull the lots from sale. I had erroneously written Allen in lieu of Laurent Ponsot.
Last edited by Victor Hong on July 10th, 2017, 9:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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#2 Post by CWun » July 9th, 2017, 12:54 pm

sad. Burghound's interviews/podcasts on Graperadio and his quarterly mailings were a great influence on my Burgundy adventure.

can't afford to buy much burg these days if I intend to retire early and become a teacher =)
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#3 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 12:59 pm

I wonder about credibility and reputation, as key professional assets.
Not a single word about Kapon, Kurniawan, or Acker on his Wikipedia site. Perhaps, it needs updating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Meadows

I once had a job, where I was told to rate high, look away, shut up, and collect bonuses. Some people were fine with that money-for-ethics swap.
Last edited by Victor Hong on July 9th, 2017, 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#4 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 9th, 2017, 1:05 pm

Looking for new targets to scold Victor? This had its own thread. You don't need your own stage.
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#5 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 1:10 pm

CWun wrote:sad. Burghound's interviews/podcasts on Graperadio and his quarterly mailings were a great influence on my Burgundy adventure.

can't afford to buy much burg these days if I intend to retire early and become a teacher =)
A good Chinese feather duster will keep that wine spending under discipline. [wow.gif]
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#6 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » July 9th, 2017, 1:47 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:Looking for new targets to scold Victor? This had its own thread. You don't need your own stage.
But he does. Victor needs to remind us that he is the only honest and scrupulous person in America, if not the world.

We get it. He had the opportunity to make millions and walked away. Too bad he has no children to pass his ethics on to.
Compact Disc and Wine Theft should be reported and prosecuted.

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#7 Post by Ian Sutton » July 9th, 2017, 2:18 pm

Well comments will either be posted in the other thread (as thread drift), or here.

What Maureen says is quite damning of Allen, so the positive of this separate thread, is it's more likely to be seen by Allen, and hence more likely he gets his 'right to reply'.
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#8 Post by alan weinberg » July 9th, 2017, 2:44 pm

can a mod clean this thread? I for one am interested in the specifics related to Acker and Allen.

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#9 Post by Charles Zedlewski » July 9th, 2017, 3:12 pm

Bill Tex Landreth wrote: Too bad he has no children to pass his ethics on to.
Way, way, way over the line.


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#11 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 3:42 pm

alan weinberg wrote:can a mod clean this thread? I for one am interested in the specifics related to Acker and Allen.
I prefer that all the posts stay as they are, to be fully telling of their posters, along with the topic. Censorship is bad.
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#12 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 3:47 pm

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:Looking for new targets to scold Victor? This had its own thread. You don't need your own stage.
But he does. Victor needs to remind us that he is the only honest and scrupulous person in America, if not the world.

We get it. He had the opportunity to make millions and walked away. Too bad he has no children to pass his ethics on to.
None of which I know......or to which THEY will admit.
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#13 Post by J Fontamillas » July 9th, 2017, 3:49 pm

Post deleted
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Cheers! J for J e s u s

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#14 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 3:52 pm

His children are biological evidence.
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#15 Post by davidlown » July 9th, 2017, 3:56 pm

This post is bs. The whole point is to try to show Allen meadows understood what was going on. Let's remember almost no one knew then what was going on. Unless you have beyond the doubt facts he was like everyone else if you remember that point in time when no one knew.

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#16 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 4:02 pm

davidlown wrote:This post is bs. The whole point is to try to show Allen meadows understood what was going on. Let's remember almost no one knew then what was going on. Unless you have beyond the doubt facts he was like everyone else if you remember that point in time when no one knew.
In the late 1990's, Royal Wine was faxing me daily with all these suddenly found goodies. I visited the store at Waterside Plaza, and smelled a rat, and never bought a single bottle.
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#17 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » July 9th, 2017, 4:04 pm

Never forget that Victor is smarter and more ethical than everyone else in the planet.
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#18 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 4:19 pm

If a critic is tasting and praising the wines specifically at an auction, on paid behalf of the auction house, should that potential conflict of interest be formally disclosed to bidders? Or does "caveat emptor" mean that bidders should be aware that "critic rating" does not imply expert, independent authentication?
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#19 Post by Marcus Dean » July 9th, 2017, 4:25 pm

davidlown wrote:This post is bs. The whole point is to try to show Allen meadows understood what was going on. Let's remember almost no one knew then what was going on. Unless you have beyond the doubt facts he was like everyone else if you remember that point in time when no one knew.
+1,
Exactly right, if you have proof that Alan is "involved" Im all ears, otherwise lets put the tar and feathers back in the closet

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#20 Post by Marcus Dean » July 9th, 2017, 4:29 pm

Victor Hong wrote:If a critic is tasting and praising the wines specifically at an auction, on paid behalf of the auction house, should that potential conflict of interest be formally disclosed to bidders? Or does "caveat emptor" mean that bidders should be aware that "critic rating" does not imply expert, independent authentication?
Victor he scored the wine that was poured in his glass, Why are you burning a cross over this anyway?

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#21 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 4:47 pm

Who is doing that in this thread, and in which post?
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#22 Post by Ian Sutton » July 9th, 2017, 4:52 pm

I would certainly be interested in hearing Allen's response to Maureen's challenge that the last time she checked, Allen was still doing events with Acker. He may have stopped already, or have reasons for continuing. Such a response would be interesting to hear.
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#23 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 4:55 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:I would certainly be interested in hearing Allen's response to Maureen's challenge that the last time she checked, Allen was still doing events with Acker. He may have stopped already, or have reasons for continuing. Such a response would be interesting to hear.
Especially if her statements are based on any documentary evidence or sworn testimony, such as that lodged publicly in court. That seems her well-tested method of investigation.
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#24 Post by Tim McCracken » July 9th, 2017, 5:01 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:I would certainly be interested in hearing Allen's response to Maureen's challenge that the last time she checked, Allen was still doing events with Acker. He may have stopped already, or have reasons for continuing. Such a response would be interesting to hear.
October 13 2014:
BURGHOUND IN THE CITY 
Rousseau Chambertin & Clos de Beze Dinner with Allen Meadows
https://www.ackerwines.com/pages/ww-08- ... eau_Dinner

October 12, 2015:
Burghound in the City The Pearl of the Côte – The Great Wines of Vosne-Romanée hosted by Allen Meadows
https://www.ackerwines.com/pages/08-25-15_ww_schedule

October 10, 2016:
BURGHOUND in the City – Iconic Red Burgundy Dinner with Allen Meadows at Eleven Madison Park
https://www.ackerwines.com/pages/08-09-16_ww_schedule

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#25 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 5:13 pm

Tim McCracken wrote:
Ian Sutton wrote:I would certainly be interested in hearing Allen's response to Maureen's challenge that the last time she checked, Allen was still doing events with Acker. He may have stopped already, or have reasons for continuing. Such a response would be interesting to hear.
October 13 2014:
BURGHOUND IN THE CITY 
Rousseau Chambertin & Clos de Beze Dinner with Allen Meadows
https://www.ackerwines.com/pages/ww-08- ... eau_Dinner

October 12, 2015:
Burghound in the City The Pearl of the Côte – The Great Wines of Vosne-Romanée hosted by Allen Meadows
https://www.ackerwines.com/pages/08-25-15_ww_schedule

October 10, 2016:
BURGHOUND in the City – Iconic Red Burgundy Dinner with Allen Meadows at Eleven Madison Park
https://www.ackerwines.com/pages/08-09-16_ww_schedule
Where can I sign up for the next event? [wow.gif]
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#26 Post by Marcus Dean » July 9th, 2017, 5:14 pm

Victor Hong wrote:Who is doing that in this thread, and in which post?
Sorry Victor, I was shooting from the hip, I just took the time to read all posts and associated threads.
I agree it would be nice to get a few answers

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#27 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 5:21 pm

Marcus Dean wrote:
Victor Hong wrote:Who is doing that in this thread, and in which post?
Sorry Victor, I was shooting from the hip, I just took the time to read all posts and associated threads.
I agree it would be nice to get a few answers
[cheers.gif]

On this note of civility, I openly invite Allen Meadows to reply, especially where information is not factual or complete.
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#28 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » July 9th, 2017, 5:46 pm

Charles Zedlewski wrote:
Bill Tex Landreth wrote: Too bad he has no children to pass his ethics on to.
Way, way, way over the line.
+1
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#29 Post by Maureen Downey » July 9th, 2017, 5:54 pm

davidlown wrote:This post is bs. The whole point is to try to show Allen meadows understood what was going on. Let's remember almost no one knew then what was going on. Unless you have beyond the doubt facts he was like everyone else if you remember that point in time when no one knew.
David - Plenty of us knew exactly what was going on in 2001, 2002, 2003....
It is patently untrue that people did not know. You, sir, have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

I know people knew, because I knew, and I was talking to all these colleagues in the auction world in NYC (not a big group of us back then!) who knew, and we all shared the same opinions and were baffled as to why the guy was still in business. When we started Zachys in 2002, we were stunned that Kapon was still in business! 2002!! One of John's own employees, Justin Christophe, coined the nickname "The Teflon John" for Kapon as nothing would stick to the guy. Not fake underbids & cooking his auction books to defraud buyers, not blatant chandelier bidding, not stealing consignors wines and not paying for them (for which he was sued and had to leave California, but the terms of that lawsuit are confidential - so he beat that one) not wantonly selling wines that even the sole-importer & producer had said were counterfeit...

It was public knowledge within the auction industry by the Amazing Grace consignment on April of 2005 that Rudy was peddling counterfeits through Acker, and that Acker would "sell anything" as the email stated in the Greenberg trial. Did you not see that even Rudy was communicating to John that the point was to target "people with money who don't know Acker."? Why do you suppose that was????

Look - I was there. I don't really care what you think. If I cared, I would not have survived for a decade with almost no one believing me about the counterfeits that Greenberg and Rudy were selling. I started working with Koch's team and the FBI on this in 2008. (And Don Cornwell was working with FBI even before me!) I have fended off nuisance lawsuits, physical and verbal assaults and am still going strong. So what you refuse to believe is irrelevant. The fact is, the outcome from various court trials and settlements have vindicated me, and those with whom I work. So all you apologists and deniers have no leg to stand on in my world. I shared a personal story, which occurred, as well as documents on the other thread.

Apologists will always be apologists, and fraud will always be perpetrated as a result.
Last edited by Maureen Downey on July 9th, 2017, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#30 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 5:54 pm

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:Looking for new targets to scold Victor? This had its own thread. You don't need your own stage.
But he does. Victor needs to remind us that he is the only honest and scrupulous person in America, if not the world.

We get it. He had the opportunity to make millions and walked away. Too bad he has no children to pass his ethics on to.
....and that is why I am back to doing this, to pay my outrageous rent.

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#31 Post by Mark Golodetz » July 9th, 2017, 7:46 pm

Maureen Downey wrote:
davidlown wrote:This post is bs. The whole point is to try to show Allen meadows understood what was going on. Let's remember almost no one knew then what was going on. Unless you have beyond the doubt facts he was like everyone else if you remember that point in time when no one knew.
David - Plenty of us knew exactly what was going on in 2001, 2002, 2003....
It is patently untrue that people did not know. You, sir, have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

I know people knew, because I knew, and I was talking to all these colleagues in the auction world in NYC (not a big group of us back then!) who knew, and we all shared the same opinions and were baffled as to why the guy was still in business. When we started Zachys in 2002, we were stunned that Kapon was still in business! 2002!! One of John's own employees, Justin Christophe, coined the nickname "The Teflon John" for Kapon as nothing would stick to the guy. Not fake underbids & cooking his auction books to defraud buyers, not blatant chandelier bidding, not stealing consignors wines and not paying for them (for which he was sued and had to leave California, but the terms of that lawsuit are confidential - so he beat that one) not wantonly selling wines that even the sole-importer & producer had said were counterfeit...

It was public knowledge within the auction industry by the Amazing Grace consignment on April of 2005 that Rudy was peddling counterfeits through Acker, and that Acker would "sell anything" as the email stated in the Greenberg trial. Did you not see that even Rudy was communicating to John that the point was to target "people with money who don't know Acker."? Why do you suppose that was????

Look - I was there. I don't really care what you think. If I cared, I would not have survived for a decade with almost no one believing me about the counterfeits that Greenberg and Rudy were selling. I started working with Koch's team and the FBI on this in 2008. (And Don Cornwell was working with FBI even before me!) I have fended off nuisance lawsuits, physical and verbal assaults and am still going strong. So what you refuse to believe is irrelevant. The fact is, the outcome from various court trials and settlements have vindicated me, and those with whom I work. So all you apologists and deniers have no leg to stand on in my world. I shared a personal story, which occurred, as well as documents on the other thread.

Apologists will always be apologists, and fraud will always be perpetrated as a result.
I am not sure knowing quite as early as 2002, but not long after, having a very animated discussion over dinner about how to recognize a Rudy faked Leroy wax capsule.
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#32 Post by Victor Hong » July 9th, 2017, 8:09 pm

When you walk into a Manhattan retail store selling lottery tickets and vodka mini-bottles in the front, but is literally littered with so-called 1929 Lafleur and Petrus magnums on the back floor, you know that something is inconsistent.
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#33 Post by John Morris » July 9th, 2017, 9:06 pm

Victor Hong wrote:When you walk into a Manhattan retail store selling lottery tickets and vodka mini-bottles in the front, but is literally littered with so-called 1929 Lafleur and Petrus magnums on the back floor, you know that something is inconsistent.
? The first part of that does not remotely describe Acker's store.
"But they told me there would be a hand basket."

"I'm not slurring my words. I'm speaking cursive."

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#34 Post by alan weinberg » July 9th, 2017, 9:16 pm

John Morris wrote:
Victor Hong wrote:When you walk into a Manhattan retail store selling lottery tickets and vodka mini-bottles in the front, but is literally littered with so-called 1929 Lafleur and Petrus magnums on the back floor, you know that something is inconsistent.
? The first part of that does not remotely describe Acker's store.
he is talking Royal Wine.

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#35 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » July 9th, 2017, 9:17 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
Charles Zedlewski wrote:
Bill Tex Landreth wrote: Too bad he has no children to pass his ethics on to.
Way, way, way over the line.
+1
Right
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#36 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » July 9th, 2017, 9:20 pm

Victor has NEVER worked in his life slinging noodles. I bet he has never done any manual labor. He openly attacks people that have children and own homes and cars.

He trolls people here better than Serge.
Compact Disc and Wine Theft should be reported and prosecuted.

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#37 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 9th, 2017, 9:51 pm

I'm sure what you say is true Maureen, but you have a style of communication that I really struggle with.

Maybe (probably) it's just me but a little more humility would be attractive. Being a good winner is important.

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#38 Post by davidlown » July 9th, 2017, 9:56 pm

Maureen Downey wrote:
davidlown wrote:This post is bs. The whole point is to try to show Allen meadows understood what was going on. Let's remember almost no one knew then what was going on. Unless you have beyond the doubt facts he was like everyone else if you remember that point in time when no one knew.
David - Plenty of us knew exactly what was going on in 2001, 2002, 2003....
It is patently untrue that people did not know. You, sir, have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

I know people knew, because I knew, and I was talking to all these colleagues in the auction world in NYC (not a big group of us back then!) who knew, and we all shared the same opinions and were baffled as to why the guy was still in business. When we started Zachys in 2002, we were stunned that Kapon was still in business! 2002!! One of John's own employees, Justin Christophe, coined the nickname "The Teflon John" for Kapon as nothing would stick to the guy. Not fake underbids & cooking his auction books to defraud buyers, not blatant chandelier bidding, not stealing consignors wines and not paying for them (for which he was sued and had to leave California, but the terms of that lawsuit are confidential - so he beat that one) not wantonly selling wines that even the sole-importer & producer had said were counterfeit...

It was public knowledge within the auction industry by the Amazing Grace consignment on April of 2005 that Rudy was peddling counterfeits through Acker, and that Acker would "sell anything" as the email stated in the Greenberg trial. Did you not see that even Rudy was communicating to John that the point was to target "people with money who don't know Acker."? Why do you suppose that was????

Look - I was there. I don't really care what you think. If I cared, I would not have survived for a decade with almost no one believing me about the counterfeits that Greenberg and Rudy were selling. I started working with Koch's team and the FBI on this in 2008. (And Don Cornwell was working with FBI even before me!) I have fended off nuisance lawsuits, physical and verbal assaults and am still going strong. So what you refuse to believe is irrelevant. The fact is, the outcome from various court trials and settlements have vindicated me, and those with whom I work. So all you apologists and deniers have no leg to stand on in my world. I shared a personal story, which occurred, as well as documents on the other thread.

Apologists will always be apologists, and fraud will always be perpetrated as a result.
My post was not that people including yourself didn't know what was going on. It seems that you and the group you mention did. My post was that bringing Allen meadows into this without fact is an unethical thing to do.

Since my post someone is showing that burghound still does events with Acker which is nice secondary information but it is still not of importance. It seems the assumption is acker pays off burghound to make high scores on fake wine and to me it isn't rational as burghound isn't going to give up his career. But again moreover just as no one else would want done to them what has been to burghound here I think it is unethical to try to disparage a person where there aren't facts.

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#39 Post by DanielP » July 9th, 2017, 10:12 pm

.
Last edited by DanielP on July 10th, 2017, 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
P@ik

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#40 Post by Nick Gangas » July 9th, 2017, 10:15 pm

Will people stop buying Roulot, Dujac and Comte Liger Belair since they deal with AMC ?

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#41 Post by KatrinaBI » July 9th, 2017, 10:18 pm

Russell Faulkner wrote:I'm sure what you say is true Maureen, but you have a style of communication that I really struggle with.

Maybe (probably) it's just me but a little more humility would be attractive. Being a good winner is important.
Because, of course, this wine board, and the wine world generally, is just bursting at the seams with humble types. God forbid Maureen introduce a little ego into that self-deprecating, self-effacing milieu.

I'm sure Maureen could give a proverbial rodent's behind as to how she might make her posts more attractive to you. Your post reeks of sexism -- right down to your final paternalistic advice about how to be a good winner.

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#42 Post by Russell Faulkner » July 9th, 2017, 10:26 pm

Well that's about what I expected. It has absolutely nothing to do with sex and all to do with tone, to say otherwise is baseless and cheapens the accusation.

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#43 Post by Curtis Chen » July 9th, 2017, 11:43 pm

KatrinaBI wrote:Your post reeks of sexism -- right down to your final paternalistic advice about how to be a good winner.
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CellarTracker: Curtis Chen

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#44 Post by Andrew Hamilton » July 10th, 2017, 12:51 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:Well that's about what I expected. It has absolutely nothing to do with sex and all to do with tone, to say otherwise is baseless and cheapens the accusation.
Who cares? If you interpret Maureen as being abrasive, that's on you. Don't have a go at her because she's offended your highfalutin sensibilities. You opened yourself up to this sort of attack by chiming in and telling her "Being a good winner is important". Quibbling about her method of communication does little other than attempt to cheapen her message, at least from my perspective.

I for one am very pleased that Maureen is doing this work and sharing her experiences with us. And a tip of the hat to Victor too, I was unaware of Meadows continuing involvement with AMC until this tread. I had erroneously assumed he would have turned his back on them years ago given what went down...
That sounds about right.
Probably for the best.
They had a good run.

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#45 Post by Tim McCracken » July 10th, 2017, 1:48 am

davidlown wrote: Since my post someone is showing that burghound still does events with Acker which is nice secondary information but it is still not of importance. It seems the assumption is acker pays off burghound to make high scores on fake wine and to me it isn't rational as burghound isn't going to give up his career. But again moreover just as no one else would want done to them what has been to burghound here I think it is unethical to try to disparage a person where there aren't facts.
I beg to differ. It is of extreme importance. And there are plenty of facts.

I like Allen Meadows, he introduced me to my first experience with DRC many years ago, and he always came across as both humble and highly knowledgeable.

However, he was also an enabler of Rudy and Kapon. The ethical thing to do would be to separate himself from both as soon as the fraud was evident. Instead, he took the money.

You suggest that there are only two alternatives: continue to work with Acker or give up his career. I call BS on that. His career doesn't depend on Kapon. He is an author and a prolific writer of Burgundy tasting notes with a substantial subscriber base. If he continues to be bankrolled by Kapon, the wine public has a right to know and those fighting wine fraud have a responsibility to call him out about it.

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#46 Post by Victor Hong » July 10th, 2017, 2:13 am

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:Victor has NEVER worked in his life slinging noodles. I bet he has never done any manual labor. He openly attacks people that have children and own homes and cars.

He trolls people here better than Serge.
Evidence of such, please? Thank you.
WineHunter.

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#47 Post by Ian Sutton » July 10th, 2017, 3:29 am

All. Can we lose the many personal attacks that are happening in this thread. They always cheapen the argument behind them.
Normal for Norfolk

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#48 Post by James Billy » July 10th, 2017, 3:50 am

A personal criticism is a personal criticism. I find it hard to see it as any more than that here. Where is the sexism? Implied? How can you be sure?
Last edited by James Billy on July 10th, 2017, 6:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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#49 Post by Bob Hughes » July 10th, 2017, 3:55 am

This is somewhat reminiscent of the premier cru thread in that the guilty will have defenders until the ship has finally sailed - I'm sure there is someone still out there that thinks OJ is innocent because the glove didn't fit.

I personally find the posts by Maureen very informative.

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#50 Post by Markus S » July 10th, 2017, 4:32 am

Victor Hong wrote: ....and that is why I am back to doing this, to pay my outrageous rent.

Image
Seriously? This is from the web and not even a picture of you. At least be honest with your sarcasm.
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