La Tache gone bad

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Jeff Bloom
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La Tache gone bad

#51 Post by Jeff Bloom » September 28th, 2017, 5:41 am

While I understand skepticism with posts like this, there are several factors that make this very different from prior similar threads. First, the OP said nothing about selling any wine. She simply asked at first if the bottles were bad. She then said "If they are not worth keeping, I could use the space for different bottles," suggesting to me at least she intended to simply throw them away. She didn't ask anyone what they were worth or solicit offers.

When my wife and I die, one or more nieces and nephews will inherit my cellar, including the aforementioned La Tache if I go sooner rather than later. While I hope they're smart enough to seek out a reputable auction house or retailer for assistance, they may come to a place like this for information. A few of them are interested in wine but not knowledgeable. If they do come here, please be nice to them.

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#52 Post by Brian Tuite » September 28th, 2017, 5:48 am

Rebecca J wrote:The top says Monopole 1991 and under La Tache it says Appelation La Tache Controlee. I can put more detail in, but I was just asking a question about wine being bad. It could be about any bottle . I guess I should have asked at what point is. a fill level indicative of a bad bottle?. I guess I should have been more specific. My Uncle had a very nice wine cooler. He kept the temp. in the fifties. We have them stored in a wine cooler at our house and also keep the temp in the fifties. If that is wrong, then I guess they were not stored well. We have about 100 other bottles, but many are lower end wines and I am not as worried about messing those up. I'm sorry if it something came across offensive or questionable to you Mr. George. I didn't mean for it to be like that.
The point being, from my vantage point, that with over 100 bottles and you happen to choose the ones valued in the $thousands to just happen to ask about. No offense but threads like this pop up all them time and usually it is someone trying to get over.
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#53 Post by Kevin Porter » September 28th, 2017, 6:09 am

I hope that Ms. J works with Ian Dorin to sell authentic wines at a fair price to buyers who will drink and enjoy them. That said, I'm with the skeptics -

1. I'm not Tom Hill but I've been (primarily lurking) on wine boards for years and have seen several similar discussions that have gone south.
2. Why those wines? Any others?
3. The initial post speculates that the wine is bad but post 8 indicates that it has been stored in a temperature-controlled cooler.
4. Speaking of post 8, how/why does a wine neophyte have a wine cooler in her house (unless perhaps it was part of the inheritance)?
5. The "haven't tried to sell to anyone here" doesn't resonate with me. If this were a scam of any sophistication it would not start with an offer to sell.

I'm not happy or proud to be skeptical in this case and hope to be proven wrong, but I think that the posters who are "shocked, shocked I say" at the skeptics are naive.

In any event, working with a reputable Auction House is the right way to go. I'm glad to see that no one has suggested CC and I hope that no one has PMed with buy offers.

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#54 Post by Chris Foley » September 28th, 2017, 6:14 am

It would seem that these were the oldest bottles in Uncle's collection.
Thus the question of whether they have gone bad makes sense if the OP knows little about the value of cellar aging fine wine.
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#55 Post by Jeff Bloom » September 28th, 2017, 6:42 am

Kevin Porter wrote:5. The "haven't tried to sell to anyone here" doesn't resonate with me. If this were a scam of any sophistication it would not start with an offer to sell.
For example, look at the original post in the thread linked in post #44: "I am hoping these bottles will help pay for some cellar upgrades and my upcoming twins. Would anybody be interested in the following?"

I'm not defending the OP, just saying there are different factors present here that should be considered. (And nobody said a scammer here would be sophisticated.)

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#56 Post by andy velebil » September 28th, 2017, 6:56 am

Brian Tuite wrote:
Rebecca J wrote:The top says Monopole 1991 and under La Tache it says Appelation La Tache Controlee. I can put more detail in, but I was just asking a question about wine being bad. It could be about any bottle . I guess I should have asked at what point is. a fill level indicative of a bad bottle?. I guess I should have been more specific. My Uncle had a very nice wine cooler. He kept the temp. in the fifties. We have them stored in a wine cooler at our house and also keep the temp in the fifties. If that is wrong, then I guess they were not stored well. We have about 100 other bottles, but many are lower end wines and I am not as worried about messing those up. I'm sorry if it something came across offensive or questionable to you Mr. George. I didn't mean for it to be like that.
The point being, from my vantage point, that with over 100 bottles and you happen to choose the ones valued in the $thousands to just happen to ask about. No offense but threads like this pop up all them time and usually it is someone trying to get over.
Brian
Exactly my thoughts when I read it. She picked the only two bottles out of all those yet she knows nothing about wine. Oh and she has a home wine cellar herself. Time for my favorite phrase....Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out something isn't quite right.

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#57 Post by Jorge Henriquez » September 28th, 2017, 7:39 am

Jeez people, what's the matter with all of you?

Would a real scam involve a dead relative and/or sick pets??!?!?!

Oh wait........
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#58 Post by Michael Martin » September 28th, 2017, 8:03 am

Jeff Bloom wrote:While I understand skepticism with posts like this, there are several factors that make this very different from prior similar threads. First, the OP said nothing about selling any wine. She simply asked at first if the bottles were bad. She then said "If they are not worth keeping, I could use the space for different bottles," suggesting to me at least she intended to simply throw them away. She didn't ask anyone what they were worth or solicit offers.

When my wife and I die, one or more nieces and nephews will inherit my cellar, including the aforementioned La Tache if I go sooner rather than later. While I hope they're smart enough to seek out a reputable auction house or retailer for assistance, they may come to a place like this for information. A few of them are interested in wine but not knowledgeable. If they do come here, please be nice to them.
Read her post #6

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#59 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 28th, 2017, 8:05 am

Most people, even those who are not familiar with the secrets of the inner sanctums of winespeak, know enough to google. I imagine that is how Rebecca found us in the first place. And the most relevant word in any google search given the bottles are of course La Tache and Haut Brion.

Sorry guys, the paranoia is catching up with us.
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#60 Post by Kevin Porter » September 28th, 2017, 9:16 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:Most people, even those who are not familiar with the secrets of the inner sanctums of winespeak, know enough to google. I imagine that is how Rebecca found us in the first place. And the most relevant word in any google search given the bottles are of course La Tache and Haut Brion.

Sorry guys, the paranoia is catching up with us.
Thanks for reminding me; I had been meaning to google "sell my wine collection" and "value of my wine collection" to see where Berserkers lands in the results. I obviously have too much time on my hands, but not enough time to keep scrolling past the first 5 pages to find the first mention of WB for those searches.

With that I'm done w/ this one. It's not that big a deal and not worth more time. I just got frustrated with the push back against those cautioning a bit of (healthy, IMO) skepticism.

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#61 Post by Tom Reddick » September 28th, 2017, 6:58 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:Most people, even those who are not familiar with the secrets of the inner sanctums of winespeak, know enough to google. I imagine that is how Rebecca found us in the first place. And the most relevant word in any google search given the bottles are of course La Tache and Haut Brion.

Sorry guys, the paranoia is catching up with us.
Agreed- and I am sorry to see so much ugly conjecture in this thread.

FWIW, now that wine is such a widely traded commodity a whole new array of brokers are out there who are unscrupulous- and some of them advertise quite extensively, even targeting divorce and estate sale situations where the seller is not likely to have knowledge.

I had a client come to me not too long ago for a second opinion, and- via winebid plus one broker- we got her more than DOUBLE what one of these online "don't worry, we will do all the work for you" operations had offered.

It is not only logical, but quite sensible for someone who finds themselves with bottles they know little about to come looking for advice on a wine forum versus someone with a financial interest in the outcome of any advice they may give.

Keep in mind too that the market we know today is far different from when 1991 La Tache was released. La Tache is not exactly a rare wine and it was available in stores all over Texas at release. In fact, I well remember buying 4 bottles of 1991 Romanee Conti off the shelf several months after release at one shop for $400 each- after the 25% discount they gave me because no one else had expressed an interest.

The armchair quarterbacking and misinformation from some in the auction threads is bad enough- is it really necessary to pile on new people coming here for help?

Rebecca- if you are still reading this thread, feel free to PM me if you like. I appraise as a sideline and refer to brokers as well. I only do it locally for collections and marketplaces I know well, so cannot be of direct service to you. However I can point you to some good online resources of recent auction data that are freely accessible and will help you make sure you are not taken advantage of provided your bottles prove to be determinable as in good condition.
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#62 Post by Andrew Kaufman » September 28th, 2017, 7:38 pm

Jorge Henriquez wrote:Jeez people, what's the matter with all of you?

Would a real scam involve a dead relative and/or sick pets??!?!?!

Oh wait........
If she got to Ian D. a few days ago, and he emailed her back before she posted here, something makes no sense. She had the wherewith all to locate, contact and receive an email back, then she posts here.

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#63 Post by Andrew Kaufman » September 28th, 2017, 7:40 pm

Tom Reddick wrote:
Mark Golodetz wrote:Most people, even those who are not familiar with the secrets of the inner sanctums of winespeak, know enough to google. I imagine that is how Rebecca found us in the first place. And the most relevant word in any google search given the bottles are of course La Tache and Haut Brion.

Sorry guys, the paranoia is catching up with us.
Agreed- and I am sorry to see so much ugly conjecture in this thread.

FWIW, now that wine is such a widely traded commodity a whole new array of brokers are out there who are unscrupulous- and some of them advertise quite extensively, even targeting divorce and estate sale situations where the seller is not likely to have knowledge.

I had a client come to me not too long ago for a second opinion, and- via winebid plus one broker- we got her more than DOUBLE what one of these online "don't worry, we will do all the work for you" operations had offered.

It is not only logical, but quite sensible for someone who finds themselves with bottles they know little about to come looking for advice on a wine forum versus someone with a financial interest in the outcome of any advice they may give.

Keep in mind too that the market we know today is far different from when 1991 La Tache was released. La Tache is not exactly a rare wine and it was available in stores all over Texas at release. In fact, I well remember buying 4 bottles of 1991 Romanee Conti off the shelf several months after release at one shop for $400 each- after the 25% discount they gave me because no one else had expressed an interest.

The armchair quarterbacking and misinformation from some in the auction threads is bad enough- is it really necessary to pile on new people coming here for help?

Rebecca- if you are still reading this thread, feel free to PM me if you like. I appraise as a sideline and refer to brokers as well. I only do it locally for collections and marketplaces I know well, so cannot be of direct service to you. However I can point you to some good online resources of recent auction data that are freely accessible and will help you make sure you are not taken advantage of provided your bottles prove to be determinable as in good condition.
Didn't she already contact Ian? Isn't he reputable enough?

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#64 Post by Nolan E » September 28th, 2017, 9:25 pm

Andrew Kaufman wrote: Didn't she already contact Ian? Isn't he reputable enough?
Getting fishy around here...a scam years in the making?
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#65 Post by NED VALOIS » September 28th, 2017, 10:16 pm

MHO;
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#66 Post by Tom Reddick » September 28th, 2017, 10:20 pm

Andrew Kaufman wrote:
Tom Reddick wrote:
Mark Golodetz wrote:Most people, even those who are not familiar with the secrets of the inner sanctums of winespeak, know enough to google. I imagine that is how Rebecca found us in the first place. And the most relevant word in any google search given the bottles are of course La Tache and Haut Brion.

Sorry guys, the paranoia is catching up with us.
Agreed- and I am sorry to see so much ugly conjecture in this thread.

FWIW, now that wine is such a widely traded commodity a whole new array of brokers are out there who are unscrupulous- and some of them advertise quite extensively, even targeting divorce and estate sale situations where the seller is not likely to have knowledge.

I had a client come to me not too long ago for a second opinion, and- via winebid plus one broker- we got her more than DOUBLE what one of these online "don't worry, we will do all the work for you" operations had offered.

It is not only logical, but quite sensible for someone who finds themselves with bottles they know little about to come looking for advice on a wine forum versus someone with a financial interest in the outcome of any advice they may give.

Keep in mind too that the market we know today is far different from when 1991 La Tache was released. La Tache is not exactly a rare wine and it was available in stores all over Texas at release. In fact, I well remember buying 4 bottles of 1991 Romanee Conti off the shelf several months after release at one shop for $400 each- after the 25% discount they gave me because no one else had expressed an interest.

The armchair quarterbacking and misinformation from some in the auction threads is bad enough- is it really necessary to pile on new people coming here for help?

Rebecca- if you are still reading this thread, feel free to PM me if you like. I appraise as a sideline and refer to brokers as well. I only do it locally for collections and marketplaces I know well, so cannot be of direct service to you. However I can point you to some good online resources of recent auction data that are freely accessible and will help you make sure you are not taken advantage of provided your bottles prove to be determinable as in good condition.
Didn't she already contact Ian? Isn't he reputable enough?
A fair point- to which I would only reply it is hard to say the extent to which someone will ask questions, sometimes even after they find someone reputable. The world now knows that wine has the potential to be a valuable collectible- and initial inquiries often spur people to reach out further.

As with all of us, I have no idea the real story here. My strong bias comes from the fact there are now, in recent years, several occasions where someone asking for a second opinion of me got them much better than they would have achieved otherwise. Usually not much- the one example I gave was an outlier- but it has mattered.
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#67 Post by dennis.coronado » September 29th, 2017, 4:02 am

Jeff Bloom wrote:While I understand skepticism with posts like this, there are several factors that make this very different from prior similar threads. First, the OP said nothing about selling any wine. She simply asked at first if the bottles were bad. She then said "If they are not worth keeping, I could use the space for different bottles," suggesting to me at least she intended to simply throw them away. She didn't ask anyone what they were worth or solicit offers.

When my wife and I die, one or more nieces and nephews will inherit my cellar, including the aforementioned La Tache if I go sooner rather than later. While I hope they're smart enough to seek out a reputable auction house or retailer for assistance, they may come to a place like this for information. A few of them are interested in wine but not knowledgeable. If they do come here, please be nice to them.

Really? Why wouldn't you tell your nieces/nephews about this and introduce them to wine? That may be your best gift to them.

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#68 Post by Ian Sutton » September 29th, 2017, 4:51 am

Objection your Honour! Speculation!
Objection sustained

Advice sought, advice given. No-one was harmed in the posting of this thread. If it was genuine, the OP should be a little hurt by some of the comments. If a troll, then the troll would be amused by this back and forth argument. Time to move on either way.
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#69 Post by cjsavino » September 29th, 2017, 5:04 am

I need better uncles
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#70 Post by Victor Hong » September 29th, 2017, 8:15 am

cjsavino wrote:I need better uncles
Perhaps they have better nephews. [wow.gif]
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#71 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 29th, 2017, 8:32 am

Jeff Bloom wrote: When my wife and I die, one or more nieces and nephews will inherit my cellar, including the aforementioned La Tache if I go sooner rather than later. While I hope they're smart enough to seek out a reputable auction house or retailer for assistance, they may come to a place like this for information. A few of them are interested in wine but not knowledgeable. If they do come here, please be nice to them.

A slight thread drift, but why wouldn't you put detailed instructions in your will as to the best ways too dispose of the wines? If you have wine loving friends or a store or an auctioneer who you trust, they can really be useful. The alternative is the way Rebecca has had to deal with the disposal, go on the net.
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#72 Post by Ralph George » September 29th, 2017, 10:09 am

Mark Golodetz wrote: A slight thread drift, but why wouldn't you put detailed instructions in your will as to the best ways too dispose of the wines? on the net.
How about drink them? [wow.gif] [drinkers.gif]

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#73 Post by Jeff Bloom » September 29th, 2017, 10:16 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
Jeff Bloom wrote: When my wife and I die, one or more nieces and nephews will inherit my cellar, including the aforementioned La Tache if I go sooner rather than later. While I hope they're smart enough to seek out a reputable auction house or retailer for assistance, they may come to a place like this for information. A few of them are interested in wine but not knowledgeable. If they do come here, please be nice to them.

A slight thread drift, but why wouldn't you put detailed instructions in your will as to the best ways too dispose of the wines? If you have wine loving friends or a store or an auctioneer who you trust, they can really be useful. The alternative is the way Rebecca has had to deal with the disposal, go on the net.
While there is some guidance in the will, we don't want to lock too much in because things change. I'm hoping that the ones who are interested will want to keep and drink the wine rather than sell it (actually, I'm hoping my wife and I drink the last bottle on the day we die, but that sure won't happen), but the current 2400 bottles would be too much for any of them to store well even split equally. I've spoken to the ones who have a growing interest about what to do, but then there's the one who had Apothic as the only wine choice at this wedding last year. [shrug.gif]

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#74 Post by Andrew Kaufman » September 29th, 2017, 4:51 pm

Tom Reddick wrote:
Andrew Kaufman wrote:
Didn't she already contact Ian? Isn't he reputable enough?
A fair point- to which I would only reply it is hard to say the extent to which someone will ask questions, sometimes even after they find someone reputable. The world now knows that wine has the potential to be a valuable collectible- and initial inquiries often spur people to reach out further.

As with all of us, I have no idea the real story here. My strong bias comes from the fact there are now, in recent years, several occasions where someone asking for a second opinion of me got them much better than they would have achieved otherwise. Usually not much- the one example I gave was an outlier- but it has mattered.
But she didn't post any photos. How could she expect anyone to give any advice without posting photos, at a minimum or in person, better yet. And I am positive Ian said something to that effect. What other advice could she possibly receive [has proven by those who responded to her request].

And how was it she just happened to find one of the best guys around?

Lastly why would she assume [or even question] that the wine had gone bad?

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#75 Post by Peter Kleban » September 29th, 2017, 5:19 pm

Andrew--you're a legal beagle. Try taking her side. Assume she is as she states. I don't see any contradiction.
Andrew Kaufman wrote:
Tom Reddick wrote:
Andrew Kaufman wrote:
Didn't she already contact Ian? Isn't he reputable enough?

How would she know, not being a wine person. Why should she trust the opinion of any one poster here, she doesn't know us.


A fair point- to which I would only reply it is hard to say the extent to which someone will ask questions, sometimes even after they find someone reputable. The world now knows that wine has the potential to be a valuable collectible- and initial inquiries often spur people to reach out further. She doesn't know that, not being a wine person.

As with all of us, I have no idea the real story here. My strong bias comes from the fact there are now, in recent years, several occasions where someone asking for a second opinion of me got them much better than they would have achieved otherwise. Usually not much- the one example I gave was an outlier- but it has mattered.
But she didn't post any photos.
IIRC she said she didn't know how to post photos here.
How could she expect anyone to give any advice without posting photos, at a minimum or in person, better yet. And I am positive Ian said something to that effect. What other advice could she possibly receive [has proven by those who responded to her request].

And how was it she just happened to find one of the best guys around?

You mean best wines? She had no control over what she inherited.

Lastly why would she assume [or even question] that the wine had gone bad?

Because it's old. Good question, if you are a newbie at wine.
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#76 Post by Chuck Miller » September 29th, 2017, 7:13 pm

Something like 50% of the posters here don’t know how to post pictures, unless you count sideways pictures. Not sure why we should expect a newby to figure it out.
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#77 Post by Michael Martin » September 29th, 2017, 7:30 pm

Chuck Miller wrote:Something like 50% of the posters here don’t know how to post pictures, unless you count sideways pictures. Not sure why we should expect a newby to figure it out.
So true.

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#78 Post by George Chadwick » September 29th, 2017, 10:32 pm

Ian Sutton wrote:Objection your Honour! Speculation!
Objection sustained

Advice sought, advice given. No-one was harmed in the posting of this thread. If it was genuine, the OP should be a little hurt by some of the comments. If a troll, then the troll would be amused by this back and forth argument. Time to move on either way.
Move on to what? Facebook politics? The bleak ennui of allocation discussions? Commerce Corner requests for whisky? My impenetrable garage clutter? I'm staying right here. Popcorn is popping. I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO!!!!

By the way Rebecca doesn't like you. And when Rebecca doesn't like someone bad things happen. I saw the movie. Be careful.

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#79 Post by Ian Sutton » September 30th, 2017, 2:41 am

Tell me about your garage clutter... I think I'm going to regret this ;¬)
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#80 Post by George Hejna » October 1st, 2017, 2:57 pm

Over under on how many pages this thread goes without another response from the OP?

[snort.gif]

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#81 Post by Jorge Henriquez » October 1st, 2017, 3:10 pm

George Hejna wrote:Over under on how many pages this thread goes without another response from the OP?

[snort.gif]

George
All sold, thanks for the help. Much appreciated.
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#82 Post by Mike Evans » October 1st, 2017, 3:10 pm

George Hejna wrote:Over under on how many pages this thread goes without another response from the OP?

[snort.gif]

George
Why on earth would she ever post here again about anything given that most of the posts on this thread insinuated that she had sinister motives? If something deceptive was planned, a couple of skeptical posts would have been sufficient warning, but people kept joining the self-righteous mob and taking the least charitable possible interpretation of the few facts we had to make themselves feel more important. On the whole it was a disgusting and cowardly display.

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#83 Post by Mike Evans » October 1st, 2017, 3:14 pm

Jorge Henriquez wrote:
George Hejna wrote:Over under on how many pages this thread goes without another response from the OP?

[snort.gif]

George
All sold, thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

Keeping it classy. It isn't enough to basically bully a first time poster away from the forum, you have to keep pouring it on. Taking a page from the Trump playbook or does he take it from yours?

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#84 Post by George Hejna » October 1st, 2017, 4:04 pm

Great now this thread is going to be moved to politics. :)

George

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#85 Post by George Chadwick » October 1st, 2017, 7:20 pm

Mike Evans wrote:
George Hejna wrote:Over under on how many pages this thread goes without another response from the OP?

[snort.gif]

George
Why on earth would she ever post here again about anything given that most of the posts on this thread insinuated that she had sinister motives? If something deceptive was planned, a couple of skeptical posts would have been sufficient warning, but people kept joining the self-righteous mob and taking the least charitable possible interpretation of the few facts we had to make themselves feel more important. On the whole it was a disgusting and cowardly display.
It's not disgusting if the syntax -- not "a few facts," but the whole vibe -- makes some of us, and there are very smart and savvy people here, suspect his name might not be Rebecca, and there maybe either is no wine or it's counterfeit, and we don't want to see a fellow poster get burned doing a private message transaction we won't know about so we are warning each other. At what percent chance that it's a bad deal, using our life experience, do we have your permission to be skeptical and warn others, without you calling us disgusting and cowardly? How will you feel if it turns out you're not being patronizingly chivalrous for what you see as some frail naif who you think needs your protection, you're defending some guy in his mom's basement? Who's trying to rip off the people you're bullying? I have no idea if this is legit but I put the odds at less than 50 percent in my mind. Definitely obligates me to express my concerns. If I'm wrong I won't apologize for acting in good faith.

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#86 Post by Rauno E (NZ) » October 1st, 2017, 10:52 pm

Please post again Rebecca :)

As for so many of the other posts: I'm glad you've all set the alarms blaring to protect the berserker who PMs her offering a couple of hundred bucks... but gets stung on the off chance. Because that sort of behaviour definitely needs protecting.


NOT!!!
Rauno Engel

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#87 Post by George Chadwick » October 2nd, 2017, 12:03 am

Rauno E (NZ) wrote:Please post again Rebecca :)

As for so many of the other posts: I'm glad you've all set the alarms blaring to protect the berserker who PMs her offering a couple of hundred bucks... but gets stung on the off chance. Because that sort of behaviour definitely needs protecting.


NOT!!!
I hadn't thought of that, seriously. Anyone who purchases from him/her privately might be doing so hoping to take advantage, and anyone truly helpful would tell her to bring them to auction or sell them openly, so caveat emptor canis cavem. I stand chastened.

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