How to tell the difference between high pH and high alcohol

When you are tasting a wine (let’s say a white wine), how do you differentiate between the sensation of high pH and high alcohol?

For me, high alcohol might give a touch of alcoholic burn. It also might feel more viscous / oily, but these are elements that are more noticeable with some grapes than others. I suppose this is one instance where noticeble ‘legs’ would hint at elevated alcohol, though again it depends on the grape/style. Then there is the really obvious one of whether you feel tipsy after a glass or not!

High PH would be a flabbiness / lack of acidic freshness.

Dumb question…

Might you really be meaning high acidity?

how do you differentiate between the sensation of high pH and high alcohol?

Soft vs burn. And one is a taste and one is a sensation.

But both are relative. Some high-alcohol wines don’t burn at all, whereas some lower ones do. Some high pH wines aren’t particularly soft if they have sufficient tannins and other elements.

And sometimes alcohol has a slight sweetness of its own, and a bitterness as well, which is why I don’t like liquor.

And the best way to truly differentiate this is at room temperature, not chilled. Chilling a white wine may hide its alcohol level but it will become much more apparent every room temperature. The same is true for new oak aromas and flavors, residual sugar, and potential flaws like VA.

Neither has a taste. Unless I’m misunderstanding you’re statement. Wines with very low or high acid (high pH) and/or alcohol are both sensations but not flavors. Both contribute to overall balance of a wine and both in a way, make a wine appear to have more body.

I find these characteristics hand in hand more often than not.

If a wine is lacking acid but doesn’t have high alcohol, it seem flat/falbby and incomplete. Right after taking a sip of wine, you can exhale quickly to get a gauge for alcohol.

I’m not sure why you ask. Does it matter? If you are asking as ITB, then that is different. But for a consumer, who cares? Does the wine please you? Why get hung up in the chemistry?

I’m not sure why you are responding like this. Why would it matter if the person is ITB or not?

Curiosity is a great thing - and we all have more to learn . . .and to hopefully share if we do know.

Cheers.

I am ITB but I also agree with Larry that I would still like to know even if I were not.

It’s a fun topic.

For me, I think acidity correlates well with a ‘tartness’ or ‘brightness’ to fruit flavors. This characteristic strikes me with citrus components in white wines, as well as raspberry-ish flavors in reds. I like the finish on wines with ‘proper’ acidity - perhaps more side of the tongue and top back palate.

Continuing in the “I admit I may be full of it” vein: perhaps I associate higher acidity in reds with more “red fruit” and lower acidity with “dark fruit” impressions. Of course, none of what I think would not have exceptions.

Higher acid pinots really pop on the nose and palate. I tend to be a little AFWE, which seems to lean toward higher acidity.

Low acid, as others have mentioned: possibly a more flabby feel, doesn’t seem to integrate with alcohol content as well, probably a more subdued mouth feel, for me.

I am guessing, but would venture that malolactic fermentation lowers actual acidity somewhat?

As to interpreting alcohol content, I only notice if my perception of the wine’s balance is thrown off.

Because if you were producing that wine, and the perception was that something was out of balance, you might look to correct it. As a consumer, I still say who cares? Likely a vintage thing, Larry. You know that the labs vary vintage to vintage. I just don’t think that for a consumer, analyzing a bottle/vintage from this snapshot is productive nor informative.

We should not care about “vintage things” unless we make wine? Huh been going at this all wrong for years…

-1. I like to know why I like or dislike a wine so I can find similar ones to try.

My point, Mr. So, is that a set of labs is only valid for that vintage for that producer at that point in time. You don’t like the wine? Try it the next vintage, or don’t.

When I was starting out, I went to a trade tasting as a guest of my mentor, who had a press badge, and I asked a well-known winemaker how she answers questions like “What’s the ph on this?” She told me to tell them it was none of their business. I always remembered that.

If anyone replied to my question, with answer like “none your business”, I would never buy or try their wine again…I’m a consumer and I care. Its curiosity and eagerness to learn. Curiosity is key to progression.

To answer the initial question, alcohol shows up in the back palate with the burn, the high pH with the dense flavor, where the freshness (usually sensed in the side of the tongue) is missing. As people have mentioned its easier to notice when the wine is not in balance.

Moreover to Merrill’s point, as a consumer, I have a right to know. I want to know what’s in the bottle. I know to know what I have paid for, why try to dumb down the consumer?

Well, Ms. Lindquist, a tasting note for a wine is only good for a single bottle too. Didn’t like that bottle? Open another, or don’t. What does one realistically do without this becoming an exercise in reductio ad absurdam? That’s why knowing technical details is useful. It helps one create heuristic rules.

Glad that concealing technical information from curious customers works for you.

I would probably remember that, too… as a really shitty way to respond to a customer who has a deeper than average interest in the product you’re selling.

Brandon - don’t we taste sweet, sour, salty, and bitter? If sour is the result of acid, then we taste it, no? Low pH is high acid, so that would be sour. But I get your meaning. High pH can be correlated with high alcohol if you have pretty ripe grapes fermented to dryness, but not always.

As to Merrill’s comment - I see where she’s coming from. People should taste the wine, not worry about the pH. But I’d just make up a number - it’s not going to matter to most people anyway.

Greg,

Yes, they should taste the wine, but should not be ‘scolded’ by perhaps trying to learn more. And I’m certain you agree with that.

There are many ways to learn . . .

Cheers.

As the OP, I just want to be clear that when I said high pH I meant lower-than-average acidity. Put another way, how to tell when the qualities you’re tasting are the result of high alcohol or lower-than-usual acidity (what can in extreme cases be what we call flabbiness.)

As for the ML question, I looked up Jamie Goode’s Science of Wine to learn that pH rise 0.1 to 0.3 through ML.

Keep in mind that TA is another factor, too, but some of the qualities of high pH are akin to high alcohol so hence my question.

Jamie on high pH: “can confer on a wine a deliciously smooth mouthfeel (think of some Provencal roses or northern Rhone whites, for example).”

Continuing (this is page 200 for reference), “Generally, though, winemaking at lower pH levels is safer because of the reduced risk of oxidation and microbial spoilage. pH affects the amount of sulfur dioxide (SO2) that is present in the active molecular form. At pH 3.0, 6% of SO2 is in the molecular form, whereas at pH 3.5 only 2% is. . . . One famous New Zealand boutique winery is known for its rather interventionist red winemaking, acidifying to low pH and then, before bottling, de-acidifying to get the desired pH. This reduces Brettanomyces risk considerably, and helps in other ways, such as fixing color.”’’

To me, this is informative - as have been the responses to this thread, so thank you very much!