Rousseau: is it overrated by us critics ?

I have been following the estate for years and it seems to me that there is a disconnection between ratings given by the french press (rvf, michel bettane) and leading us critics (burghound, tanzer). The latter are always putting the chambertin or the beze among the top 3-5 wines of the vintage, whereas it seems less obvious when reading the frenchies that the estate stands head and shoulders above the pack.
So my question for you folks: do you think rousseau has such a strong edge over its neighbours ?

Clearly the French press is wrong cause Rousseau Chambertin is one of the top wines almost every vintage.

But Iā€™d need to see actual data points to say they are wrong. I donā€™t follow any French critics and Iā€™ve never seen their rankings of wines for the vintagss

Rousseau Chambertin is terrible. Please stop buying the stuff. Also, please PM me if youā€™d like to unload them for 40-60% off WS low.

But seriously, I prefer most of the Rousseau Chambertin (and that 99 CSJ) Iā€™ve had over most of the DRC that Iā€™ve had. The purity and finesse is amazing. Even more amazing considering how much oak the top 3 get.

My sample size is small.

Rvf for example routinely places Trapet at the top. For the 2015 vintage: mortet, perrot minot and trapet above rousseau.
Less extreme with bettane but ratings are rarely showing rousseau at the top (maybe because they do not taste wines at the estate ?)

This is one of the very special producers in Burgundy. You canā€™t give enough superlatives here. I donā€™t know about critics but nobody makes better Chambertin to me.

I personally much preferred Pierre Damoy ā€¦ [cheers.gif]

I think at the top, Chambertin and LSJ, they canā€™t be beat, but I think the issue is with the rest of the portfolio and pricing. I would have to agree with the OP when discussing the full range not just 2 wines.

We had the 14ā€™ Ruchottes before Christmas and while delicious not worth the $300+ wholesaleā€¦

Thereā€™s often serious disconnect between how the critics see the top producers (grouped pretty closely together) and how many consumers see the top producers (massive spreads in quality and price). With all respect to the latter (consumers), there tends to be a lot of groupthink among the latter that becomes self-reinforcing that can make two wines with minimal qualitative differences become crazily sought after on the one hand and kind of dismissed on the other - because no one wants even slightly second best and everyone wants to believe in the magic of owning ā€œthe best.ā€ Though it actually makes buying wines like Trapet the smart move more often than not.

The self-reinforcing nature of one wine means it catches fire in a major way, both in price and perception. Consumers fall all over themselves to pile on buying, price goes up, and then so do the justifications for paying that top price. No one is immune to this effect.

I have been fortunate to have had tasted Rousseau many many times. And I started buying Rousseau long time ago and thus Rousseau constitutes approx 20% of my Red Burgundies.

They are Wonderful wines. I love the Chambertin though it takes significantly more time to show its best compared to Clos de Beze. CSJ and Ruchottes are excellent too and I also love the Clos de la Roche. Latter is a very feminine expression compared with the likes of Dujac etc but very seductive indeed. My experience with Mazis and Charmes is a it limited (99, 01, 02, 05, 06, 07, 08). Charmes are charming, Rousseau like but do not have the depth or layers of complexity. Mazis can be a bit obdurate and take many years to unflur. The recent vintages post 2005 are much better for the ā€˜lesser Rousseau winesā€™. I have had the Cazetiers only at ā€˜releaseā€™ tasting but not with age on them. '05 and 08 Cazetiers were really super (when tasted in full horizontals compared to all their costlier stablemates).

I stopped buying Rousseau after 2012 as I lost my allocation and the wines became super expensive.

Are they Top Tier? YES. They may not be overtly big and powerful as the Mortet or Trapet but their elegance, grace and poise is undeniable. They also are very open and have a long drinking window.

Are they worth the money? I have difficulty buying them at current prices as I always think back and say OMG only few years ago they costed so much less.

Donā€™t know who that is. But anyone that places trapet and perrot minot over Rousseau is someone I can put on my list to ignore.


Better question. Is trapet and perrot Minot highly overrated by French critics?

One of the funny examples is Bettane for years saying that people were underrating Dominique Laurent because they didnā€™t understand what they were tasting young. For years, Laurent got slagged by consumers. Then, many people began opening the wines at the age where Bettane suggested they would shine, and Lo and Behold!

Critics are far from infallible, but pretending wine consumers donā€™t subscribe to considerable groupthink is silly.

Hi Jim
I agree that consumers may engage in groupthink (and sometimes believing the critic more than their own palate). However I do believe *groupthink can also affect critics, not just in how they rank wines, but also in which wines are worthy of review.

However I donā€™t see wine / wine tasting as a competitive sport. Drink what you enjoy and to hell with the scores!

Regards
Ian

  • For groupthink, you could also substitute ā€˜rating what is organised for themā€™.

Ian,

I think just about everyone engages in some groupthink when engaged in Burgundy! Myself included.

I do think the best estates really are, more often than not, the ā€œbest estates.ā€ Itā€™s just my experience, reinforced by some blinding, that the gap is not quite as wide between the top and the second-tier as many profess, and that this is where the disconnect often happens.

Donā€™t get me wrong, I love Trapet, and love the significant quality changes that have taken place in the last decade, but there is just no way Trapet is in the same class as Rousseau. Itā€™s not even the same sport. Thatā€™s like the difference between the guy with a million dollars, and a billion dollars. I would HOPE that Trapet turns out as good, but there is just no chance.

Based upon my limited experience, Rousseau is not overrated. Instead it is often underrated. The Chambertin and CdB are some of the few grand crus that have ā€“ in my limited experience ā€“ been astoundingly delicious at every stage of their development ā€“ young, somewhat young, medium, somewhat older medium, youngish-but-aged, aged, and questionable due to age. Also, while my Rousseau experience is largely limited to Chambertin/Beze/ClosSt.Jaques, every Rousseau Iā€™ve had has been pretty damn amazingly delicious.

Sadly, I canā€™t afford them anymore.

And this is where I disagree. While thereā€™s a gap in my experience, itā€™s just not that big, at least not to me. And I think this can become really unpredictable as wines age.

Sounds like a fun blind tasting waiting to happen. Iā€™d certainly love IF the likes of Trapet exceeded Rousseau. That would throw a twist on Markā€™s ā€œnew wine drinkers canā€™t enjoy the benchmarks due to affordabilityā€ thread. Having said all that, Iā€™m skeptical.

FWIW, it doesnā€™t happen that often. I recall a tasting where an 85 Trapet, which was a weirdly great wine made in a tough era for the estate, topped out over some other, more recognized Chambertins from the same vintage, including Rousseau, Could have been conditions of the bottle.

That said, when one bottle of Rousseau = 6 bottles of Trapet (which I feel like it did recently), Iā€™ll gamble on the half case. Thatā€™s my subjective math, of course. Others do a different calculus.

The point Jim is making here is a tough one to make and i praise him for it.

I think middle-aged Rousseau wines are delicious and surprisingly accessible for a top producer. For me, the question is with 25-40 years age how do they compare to the top handful of producers? This is not a pejorative question but an open one.

Rousseau 99s and recently the 01s in particular are super impressive but i have had only a couple of wines from the 80s and back that have really blown me away. Obviously the sample is relatively small.

With proper age, I am consistently more excited by Roumier and DRC, especially Roumier (although there is a sense of chalk and cheese twice here). Yet tasting middle-aged wines from DRC and to some extent Roumier is tough. With the exception of 98, for most of the late 90s - mid 2000 vintages, the Rousseau 3 are more enjoyable now. i would not however bank on that remaining the case.

On a slightly less fancy level, I would make a case for the potential quality of the Bruno Clair wines, as illuminated in wines of Clair Dau. I would expect Rousseau to taste much more grand and exciting than Bruno Clair from a vintage like 99 but i wouldnā€™t bank on this remaining the case in 10-15 years time. I think oak has a part to play here.

Regarding Trapet etc. Itā€™s an interesting call by Bettane et al. I would agree that many Dominique Laurent wines have come good. By no means all of them but 00 for sure and i would make a case for 01 too and remarkably 94. I think on the basis of past insight these guys deserve our respect and consideration. Mortet is particularly tricky to call because Arnaud is building on Denisā€™ work but the change is becoming more obvious vintage on vintage. I was once blinded on Fourrier CSJ 1999, Rousseau CSJ 1999 and Mortet Lavaux 1999. I said that the Mortet was the Rousseau; the Fourrier was the Fourrier and the Rousseau was the Mortet because the oak on the Rousseau stuck out and the Mortet was f*cking awesome. I would have expected the Mortet to be overoakedbut hehā€¦

Is the question here maybe deliciousness versus authenticity? Of course, obviously these overlap.

If we extend this to the Cote de Beaune and take in Lafarge and Pousse Dā€™Or this gets even more interesting. Can we define tradition in Burgundy in terms of sentiment and intention rather than method?

Fun topic.

Cheers,
Martin

ITB UK - so probably a bit of fusty f*cker

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The handful of Rousseau Chambertin and CDB Iā€™ve had are among the best wines of my life. But I have wondered whether Rousseau gets particular accolades because it drinks so well young and doesnā€™t seem to shut down as hard as some other top tier wines.