The Rising Price of Cornas

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NoahR
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The Rising Price of Cornas

#1 Post by NoahR » September 22nd, 2018, 3:33 pm

2016 Guillaume Gilles coming in above $70.
This is my last vintage. And I’m probably out for Gonon, Chave, Allemand, Jamet, Barge, Souhaut, and pretty much everything I’ve picked up even a few bottles of over the last five years. Pricing is total BS and apparently really elevated over European prices.

I only wish I could convince the entire No Rhône buying population of the US to boycott the people that are raising prices 20-50% per vintage - they’re not the wineries. I am seriously done.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#2 Post by AAgrawal » September 22nd, 2018, 4:09 pm

I overbought over the '09-'14 vintages. I like them, but I don't drink Northern rhone often, so over a few years I ended up with enough Northern rhone to last 10-15 years at my consumption rate. When I looked at cellar rebalancing, I initially scolded myself for going overboard, but now I'm happy with my holdings... while they last.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#3 Post by RyanC » September 22nd, 2018, 4:19 pm

Gilles at $70 is a huge bump. But still worth it to me. I’m probably done with Allemand on release.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#4 Post by A. So » September 22nd, 2018, 4:30 pm

AAgrawal wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 4:09 pm
I overbought over the '09-'14 vintages. I like them, but I don't drink Northern rhone often, so over a few years I ended up with enough Northern rhone to last 10-15 years at my consumption rate. When I looked at cellar rebalancing, I initially scolded myself for going overboard, but now I'm happy with my holdings... while they last.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#5 Post by Frank Murray III » September 22nd, 2018, 5:10 pm

Noah, bugs me too so i have pretty much dropped out too.

Suggestion.....try the Model Farm syrah made by Joanna (Kutch AWM) ans Sean (Rhys AWM). 45 bucks. Sure, it's not from N Rhone but it's damn good, with inspiration from that genre.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#6 Post by Kirk.Grant » September 22nd, 2018, 6:58 pm

I think it's safe to say that these wines are only going to keep going up as more people discover them and demand continues to rise. I think that's where it's important to keep trying to find new wines that you enjoy and new wines that are exciting to buy. Just like many of us bemoan that we can't reasonably afford wines like 1st Growths, GC Burgs, and some of the other top end wines in the world. These are finally moving into that pantheon that they're no longer the price that we're comfortable with. I expect Beaujolais, and a few others will eventually enter this realm too. When wines like Marcel Lapierre hit the $50+ mark...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#7 Post by c fu » September 22nd, 2018, 7:45 pm

NoahR wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 3:33 pm
2016 Guillaume Gilles coming in above $70.
This is my last vintage. And I’m probably out for Gonon, Chave, Allemand, Jamet, Barge, Souhaut, and pretty much everything I’ve picked up even a few bottles of over the last five years. Pricing is total BS and apparently really elevated over European prices.

I only wish I could convince the entire No Rhône buying population of the US to boycott the people that are raising prices 20-50% per vintage - they’re not the wineries. I am seriously done.
European brokers have taken a really strong position on N Rhone as well. You’ll find the pricing post allocation release of N rhones in the US and Europe rather high.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#8 Post by Robert M yers » September 22nd, 2018, 7:46 pm

Yeah I’ve been passing on the price hikes of 16 as well. Balthazar seems to have gone up too and I guess we will soon see about Levet and Benetiere.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#9 Post by c fu » September 22nd, 2018, 9:32 pm

Robert M yers wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 7:46 pm
Yeah I’ve been passing on the price hikes of 16 as well. Balthazar seems to have gone up too and I guess we will soon see about Levet and Benetiere.
Balthazar was the same price from envoyer for 15/16 chaillot
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#10 Post by JulianD » September 23rd, 2018, 2:52 am

NoahR wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 3:33 pm
2016 Guillaume Gilles coming in above $70.
This is my last vintage. And I’m probably out for Gonon, Chave, Allemand, Jamet, Barge, Souhaut, and pretty much everything I’ve picked up even a few bottles of over the last five years. Pricing is total BS and apparently really elevated over European prices.

I only wish I could convince the entire No Rhône buying population of the US to boycott the people that are raising prices 20-50% per vintage - they’re not the wineries. I am seriously done.
This is an importer thing right? (Not increases from the producer)
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#11 Post by Robert M yers » September 23rd, 2018, 3:00 am

c fu wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 9:32 pm
Robert M yers wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 7:46 pm
Yeah I’ve been passing on the price hikes of 16 as well. Balthazar seems to have gone up too and I guess we will soon see about Levet and Benetiere.
Balthazar was the same price from envoyer for 15/16 chaillot
I can’t seem to get them to send me an offer for anything that’s seemingly limited. [shrug.gif] I get every this is the last Comtes offer though.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#12 Post by Gerhard P. » September 23rd, 2018, 5:05 am

It´s insane - an sad.
Problem is: Cornas has only slightly more than 100 ha, less than Cote-Rotie and Hermitage - and most growers have only a few ha ...
so when demand increases it´s easy for the market to sell even at high prices - obviously ...

However - imho Cornas usually needs considerable aging time to show best ... but I´m sure many bottles are drunk far too early ...
at 8-12 years it´s (imho) quite a waste ... 20+ years would be necessary!
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#13 Post by NoahR » September 23rd, 2018, 5:12 am

Levet has gone up at least 20-30% in last few years. I haven’t paid much attention to Hermitage or LaLa’s because I think they’ve been overpriced for ages anyway, but I don’t know any well-regarded or more classic No Rhône offhand that hasn’t gone up considerably for 15/16.

You may be able to find an exception here and there (waiting for a mention of 100pt Dunnuck Courbis Eygats or something similar) but Allemand at $200 is just ridiculous to me.

Maybe I’ll start buying CdP, now that Parker’s retired and nobody cares about them anymore.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#14 Post by Kirk.Grant » September 23rd, 2018, 7:22 am

NoahR wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 5:12 am
Levet has gone up at least 20-30% in last few years. I haven’t paid much attention to Hermitage or LaLa’s because I think they’ve been overpriced for ages anyway, but I don’t know any well-regarded or more classic No Rhône offhand that hasn’t gone up considerably for 15/16.

You may be able to find an exception here and there (waiting for a mention of 100pt Dunnuck Courbis Eygats or something similar) but Allemand at $200 is just ridiculous to me.

Maybe I’ll start buying CdP, now that Parker’s retired and nobody cares about them anymore.
Pre-sale from JJ Buckley on Beaucastel is almost reasonable these days. It's only $20 over what I paid for the wines in 2005 from the shelf of a wine shop.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#15 Post by William Kelley » September 23rd, 2018, 7:53 am

c fu wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 7:45 pm

European brokers have taken a really strong position on N Rhone as well. You’ll find the pricing post allocation release of N rhones in the US and Europe rather high.

True this. One of my sources in France is offering Jamet Côte Brune for >250...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#16 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 23rd, 2018, 7:56 am

Kirk.Grant wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 7:22 am
NoahR wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 5:12 am
Levet has gone up at least 20-30% in last few years. I haven’t paid much attention to Hermitage or LaLa’s because I think they’ve been overpriced for ages anyway, but I don’t know any well-regarded or more classic No Rhône offhand that hasn’t gone up considerably for 15/16.

You may be able to find an exception here and there (waiting for a mention of 100pt Dunnuck Courbis Eygats or something similar) but Allemand at $200 is just ridiculous to me.

Maybe I’ll start buying CdP, now that Parker’s retired and nobody cares about them anymore.
Pre-sale from JJ Buckley on Beaucastel is almost reasonable these days. It's only $20 over what I paid for the wines in 2005 from the shelf of a wine shop.
The 2015 Coudelet de Beaucastel is excellent and sub-$25. I’m drinking them like Koolaide, and they have room to grow.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#17 Post by Ian Sutton » September 23rd, 2018, 8:10 am

Funny how I really enjoyed a pair of mature bottles of Robert Michel Cornas back in 2010, the 1983 was good, but the 1985 was stunningly enjoyable, yet didn't buy another bottle of Cornas until 2013 and then another 3 year wait before buying a further bottle. I picked up further bottles in the last two years, but price escalation may stop this revival of interest in it's tracks. I do take the view that there is plenty of wine out there, so being priced out of one area, isn't the end of the world.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#18 Post by Dale Bowers » September 23rd, 2018, 9:00 am

Unfortunately, you could almost post this about every wine region to some extent.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#19 Post by Arv R » September 23rd, 2018, 9:38 am

I too wish they were less costly, but at the same time, these aren't flexible wines that are a heavy part of the drinking rotation. They are too stern for most casual wine drinkers that might be over for dinner. They aren't really good 'guys drinking while BBQing meat' kind of wines. Even my SO doesn't like 90% of No. Rhones, so at home I'm not generally pulling corks on these when its just us. I have to wait til some enthusiasts are around, or maybe a Friday night, when an open bottle can be consumed over multiple nights, just by me. There is another neighborhood cocktail party tonight, and probably one of the last things I'd ever consider throwing onto the kitchen counter would be a No. Rhone of any kind.... (I'm thinking I'll take a Vouvray and an internationally styled Spanish wine)

Price increases in basic NV Champers would be more of a problem, since that's something we 'use' much more of given its flexibility.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#20 Post by Markus S » September 23rd, 2018, 12:43 pm

Frank Murray III wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:10 pm
Noah, bugs me too so i have pretty much dropped out too.

Suggestion.....try the Model Farm syrah made by Joanna (Kutch AWM) ans Sean (Rhys AWM).
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#21 Post by Markus S » September 23rd, 2018, 12:46 pm

NoahR wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 3:33 pm
2016 Guillaume Gilles coming in above $70.
This is my last vintage. And I’m probably out for Gonon, Chave, Allemand, Jamet, Barge, Souhaut, and pretty much everything I’ve picked up even a few bottles of over the last five years. Pricing is total BS and apparently really elevated over European prices.

I only wish I could convince the entire No Rhône buying population of the US to boycott the people that are raising prices 20-50% per vintage - they’re not the wineries. I am seriously done.
It's called "pay-to-play"...you don't wanna play, you don't deserve to be in the sandbox. [whistle.gif]
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#22 Post by Eric S n y d e r » September 23rd, 2018, 12:54 pm

Markus S wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 12:43 pm
Frank Murray III wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:10 pm
Noah, bugs me too so i have pretty much dropped out too.

Suggestion.....try the Model Farm syrah made by Joanna (Kutch AWM) ans Sean (Rhys AWM).
"AWM"??
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#23 Post by Markus S » September 23rd, 2018, 12:57 pm

Eric S n y d e r wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 12:54 pm
Markus S wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 12:43 pm
Frank Murray III wrote:
September 22nd, 2018, 5:10 pm
Noah, bugs me too so i have pretty much dropped out too.

Suggestion.....try the Model Farm syrah made by Joanna (Kutch AWM) ans Sean (Rhys AWM).
"AWM"??
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Thanks! Not too big on abbreviations.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#24 Post by Charles Zedlewski » September 23rd, 2018, 4:12 pm

Maybe this is the wrong way to look at it but:

- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Burgundy it will run you $3,000 a bottle in an average vintage and $5,000 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Barolo it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,200 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Bordeaux it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,000 a bottle in a great vintage

For northern rhone? The "top of the line" syrah in Cornas or Hermitage will run you $250 a bottle in an average vintage and $500 a bottle in a great vintage.

On that basis, I have zero complaints about the state of rhone pricing. Cornas specifically is only slowly inching towards where Hermitage and Cote Rotie already are and to my tastes Cornas is every bit as good as its counterparts in those other villages.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#25 Post by NoahR » September 23rd, 2018, 4:29 pm

Charles Zedlewski wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 4:12 pm
Maybe this is the wrong way to look at it but:

- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Burgundy it will run you $3,000 a bottle in an average vintage and $5,000 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Barolo it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,200 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Bordeaux it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,000 a bottle in a great vintage

For northern rhone? The "top of the line" syrah in Cornas or Hermitage will run you $250 a bottle in an average vintage and $500 a bottle in a great vintage.

On that basis, I have zero complaints about the state of rhone pricing. Cornas specifically is only slowly inching towards where Hermitage and Cote Rotie already are and to my tastes Cornas is every bit as good as its counterparts in those other villages.
I appreciate the point you are making, but, yes, I I think it’s the wrong way to look at it.

Bordeaux? I can get Lynch-Bages around $100 EP. I think 2014 EP was closer to $80 maybe. I bought 2014 Haut Brion for around $350.

Barolo? I can get Vajra Bricco for around $50. Vintage doesn’t matter.

Burgundy? Maybe harder to find universally regarded good wines for cheap, but I think burgundy pricing is ridiculous too.

I already said that i think LaLa and Hermitage pricing is overly inflated. With Cornas, you are talking the type of inflation that Giacosa has seen and, while I get that for Juge maybe, I don’t think it’s appropriate otherwise. It’s a small bubble. Cornas is a rustic, difficult, often inaccessible and polarizing wine. Try Levet on some unsuspecting wine drinkers... :)

I would think that classically styled Rioja would be more appropriate a comparison. LRA and LdH are hardly punishing consumers price wise, despite scores of excellent vintages.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#26 Post by Ramon C » September 23rd, 2018, 4:48 pm

NoahR wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 4:29 pm

I already said that i think LaLa and Hermitage pricing is overly inflated. With Cornas, you are talking the type of inflation that Giacosa has seen and, while I get that for Juge maybe, I don’t think it’s appropriate otherwise. It’s a small bubble. Cornas is a rustic, difficult, often inaccessible and polarizing wine. Try Levet on some unsuspecting wine drinkers... :)
I don't see it for Cornas either, and that includes Juge.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#27 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 23rd, 2018, 6:12 pm

I had access to older Cornas, and tasted many Versets and Clapes in the eighties and early nineties, but never bought them in any quantity. I have always considered Cornas a second tier appellation with really full flavored wines with none of the elegance and breadth of the great Hermitages and Côte Roties.

Tasted a few of the modern producers Allemand and Juge and although a little of the rusticity has been dialed back they are still big and to my palate monolithic. At these prices, there are much better alternatives.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#28 Post by NoahR » September 23rd, 2018, 7:20 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 7:56 am
Kirk.Grant wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 7:22 am
NoahR wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 5:12 am
Levet has gone up at least 20-30% in last few years. I haven’t paid much attention to Hermitage or LaLa’s because I think they’ve been overpriced for ages anyway, but I don’t know any well-regarded or more classic No Rhône offhand that hasn’t gone up considerably for 15/16.

You may be able to find an exception here and there (waiting for a mention of 100pt Dunnuck Courbis Eygats or something similar) but Allemand at $200 is just ridiculous to me.

Maybe I’ll start buying CdP, now that Parker’s retired and nobody cares about them anymore.
Pre-sale from JJ Buckley on Beaucastel is almost reasonable these days. It's only $20 over what I paid for the wines in 2005 from the shelf of a wine shop.
The 2015 Coudelet de Beaucastel is excellent and sub-$25. I’m drinking them like Koolaide, and they have room to grow.
Just picked up the bottle on your recommendation. I will check it out this week
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#29 Post by NoahR » September 23rd, 2018, 7:22 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 6:12 pm
I had access to older Cornas, and tasted many Versets and Clapes in the eighties and early nineties, but never bought them in any quantity. I have always considered Cornas a second tier appellation with really full flavored wines with none of the elegance and breadth of the great Hermitages and Côte Roties.

Tasted a few of the modern producers Allemand and Juge and although a little of the rusticity has been dialed back they are still big and to my palate monolithic. At these prices, there are much better alternatives.
Just another reason why they should not be priced so stupidly
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#30 Post by Gerhard P. » September 24th, 2018, 12:22 am

Charles Zedlewski wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 4:12 pm
... and to my tastes Cornas is every bit as good as its counterparts in those other villages.
... and to my taste Cornas is not "every bit as good" as Cote-Rotie and Hermitage. It´s usually - with exceptions - a step below the other two.
As Mark said: Cornas has a characteristic rusticity, a hardness among the tannins that can be softened by wine-making but is still there at maturity. Moreover Cornas is less complex and more monolythic than CR. and H.
I don´t want to critisize the virtues of Cornas, the qualities are doubtless there, but in my rating of Northern Rhone Appellations it´s definitely 3rd place ... and that includes producers like Clape, Verset (who imho is only expensive, but was never the best producer), Allemand and Juge ...

However it´s the smallest red AOC ... and most producers own vineyards in the low to mid ha figures ...
so when demand increases prices go up ...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#31 Post by Markus S » September 24th, 2018, 4:29 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 12:22 am
... in my rating of Northern Rhone Appellations it´s definitely 3rd place ... and that includes producers like Clape, Verset (who imho is only expensive, but was never the best producer)...
Ooo, you're attacking some sacred cows here. I'd agree with the rusticity comments, but one thing about Cornas is that - when you are drinking it - you really Do get a sense-of-place that you could be nowhere else but the Northern Rhone Valley.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#32 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 24th, 2018, 5:09 am

Cornas was my first Northern Rhône love affair, and remains as such. Clape Cornas was the culprit. It’s all a matter of personal taste, but I put Cornas over the other appellations, with Cotie Rotie a close second. Sense of place, artisanal, soulful producers, and an elegant rusticity that give the wines an honest feel to them.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#33 Post by Pat Martin » September 24th, 2018, 6:54 am

“elegant rusticity”
Oxymoron of the day!
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#34 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 24th, 2018, 6:58 am

Pat Martin wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 6:54 am
“elegant rusticity”
Oxymoron of the day!
Perhaps, but you of all people know exactly what I am talking about. Think, country squire. A little country, a little aristocratic.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#35 Post by Pat Martin » September 24th, 2018, 7:17 am

Amen brother. That’s one of the things that makes wine so beguiling, the ying-yang they can pull off.

Personally, I much prefer a wine with too much rusticity than too little. The best wines transcend such distinctions, I suppose.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#36 Post by Greg K » September 24th, 2018, 7:18 am

I certainly prefer Cornas to Cote Rotie, so if everyone else on this thread stopped buying it and lowered the price that would be great! [snort.gif]
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#37 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 24th, 2018, 7:32 am

You guys need to discover Madiran.
Lots of tannin, big,hearty and not much subtlety.
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Ramon C
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#38 Post by Ramon C » September 24th, 2018, 7:45 am

I did discover Madiran .... and Irouleguy. I like them.
I'll go with them being the Cornas version of the South-west, with the Bordeaux to the immediate north as the Hermitage/Cote-Rotie. The best thing is that they're only 1/3rd to 1/10th the price of Cornas these days.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#39 Post by Markus S » September 24th, 2018, 8:05 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 7:32 am
You guys need to discover Madiran.
Lots of tannin, big,hearty and not much subtlety.
Not true, give it 15-20 years it'll mellow in subtlety considerably.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#40 Post by Gerhard P. » September 24th, 2018, 8:16 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 6:58 am
Pat Martin wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 6:54 am
“elegant rusticity”
Oxymoron of the day!
Perhaps, but you of all people know exactly what I am talking about. Think, country squire. A little country, a little aristocratic.
Pat Martin wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 7:17 am
Amen brother. That’s one of the things that makes wine so beguiling, the ying-yang they can pull off.

Personally, I much prefer a wine with too much rusticity than too little. The best wines transcend such distinctions, I suppose.
I exactly know what Robert and Pat mean ... nothing wrong with than ...
you can prefer Sociando-Mallet or Leoville-Barton to Chateau Margaux ...
or Les Saint-Georges or Clos des Epeneaux to Les Amoureuses ... why not ...
[cheers.gif]

BTW: now and then I drink a good Madiran, however it will never be one of my favorite wines ...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#41 Post by Gerhard P. » September 24th, 2018, 8:20 am

Greg K wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 7:18 am
I certainly prefer Cornas to Cote Rotie, so if everyone else on this thread stopped buying it and lowered the price that would be great! [snort.gif]
Greg,
I´m certainly not the one stirring the market ... I have dozens of Cornas, but hundreds of Cote-Rotie and Hermitage ... [whistle.gif]
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#42 Post by Gerhard P. » September 24th, 2018, 9:30 am

Markus S wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 4:29 am

Ooo, you're attacking some sacred cows here. I'd agree with the rusticity comments, but one thing about Cornas is that - when you are drinking it - you really Do get a sense-of-place that you could be nowhere else but the Northern Rhone Valley.
If you mean it´s attacking holy cows when stating that I estimate Cote-Rotie and Hermitage higher than Cornas ... well ... so be it ... flirtysmile

>Cornas is that - when you are drinking it - you really Do get a sense-of-place that you could be nowhere else but the Northern Rhone Valley.<

The same applies absolutely to CR and H ... and in addition the wines are usually less rustic, more complex and simply "finer" ...

That doesn´t mean that a top-Cornas cannot be better than a mean Cote-Rotie ... sure it can and usually is ...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#43 Post by Alan Rath » September 24th, 2018, 9:59 am

I think it's actually a little silly to generalize as much as some of this discussion is doing. I'm not convinced at all that any of the three main N.Rhone appellations can be described in its own general way - it all comes down to the producer. There are wide ranges of soils and expositions in each district, with producers using a wide range of farming and winemaking approaches across them all. You have lower and upper slopes, sometimes plateaus that are not like the slopes at all, orientations of vineyards, organic vs. non, etc., etc. Then you have smaller to larger barrels, old to new oak, other winemaking choices.

Frankly, I gave up on most Cote Rotie some years ago because of the prevalence of new oak in too many wines. While I haven't been able to get any sense of "Hermitage style" in a long time. For me, Cornas has been, over the past 10-15 years, the place where I found the most interesting and exciting wines, at (until the past few years) more affordable prices. Interestingly, those price escalations are allowing a lot of St Joseph, and even Crozes Hermitage producers to elevate their wine substantially, to the point where I believe those appellations are starting to compete with their big brothers. There are some great soils and old vine vineyards all over the entire region, and just being located in one of the "big three" doesn't automatically create the best wine. As with other regions, it's producer, producer, producer.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#44 Post by Charles Zedlewski » September 24th, 2018, 10:00 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 12:22 am
... and to my taste Cornas is not "every bit as good" as Cote-Rotie and Hermitage. It´s usually - with exceptions - a step below the other two.
As Mark said: Cornas has a characteristic rusticity, a hardness among the tannins that can be softened by wine-making but is still there at maturity. Moreover Cornas is less complex and more monolythic than CR. and H.
Let me qualify a bit and disagree too. I didn't mean to imply ALL cornas is as good as ALL cote rotie or hermitage. There's lots of hermitages that drink better than cornas and vice versa IMO.

Where I disagree: I personally enjoy Allemand every bit as much as I do the equivalent vintage from Chave if not a bit more. I would much prefer it to any cote rotie I've tried to date which would include Guigal, Jamet, Rostaing, etc. I'd slightly prefer Clape from a good year vs. the equivalent from Marc Sorrel (though they're both great).

My top 5 cornas would probably be Allemand Renard, Clape, Tunnel Pur Noir, Paris Geynale and Balthazar Chaillot. Average price across all of those is roughly $100 (at today's more inflated pricing). What would you suggest are 5 wines from cote rotie or hermitage that come close to that price & quality?

All my distinctions are assuming you're talking about cornas from 2009 onwards. I've tried examples from the 1990's and it was clearly well behind hermitage and cote rotie at that point.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#45 Post by W. Leonard » September 24th, 2018, 10:30 am

NoahR wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 4:29 pm
Charles Zedlewski wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 4:12 pm
Maybe this is the wrong way to look at it but:

- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Burgundy it will run you $3,000 a bottle in an average vintage and $5,000 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Barolo it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,200 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Bordeaux it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,000 a bottle in a great vintage

For northern rhone? The "top of the line" syrah in Cornas or Hermitage will run you $250 a bottle in an average vintage and $500 a bottle in a great vintage.

On that basis, I have zero complaints about the state of rhone pricing. Cornas specifically is only slowly inching towards where Hermitage and Cote Rotie already are and to my tastes Cornas is every bit as good as its counterparts in those other villages.
I appreciate the point you are making, but, yes, I I think it’s the wrong way to look at it.

Bordeaux? I can get Lynch-Bages around $100 EP. I think 2014 EP was closer to $80 maybe. I bought 2014 Haut Brion for around $350.

Barolo? I can get Vajra Bricco for around $50. Vintage doesn’t matter.

Burgundy? Maybe harder to find universally regarded good wines for cheap, but I think burgundy pricing is ridiculous too.

I already said that i think LaLa and Hermitage pricing is overly inflated. With Cornas, you are talking the type of inflation that Giacosa has seen and, while I get that for Juge maybe, I don’t think it’s appropriate otherwise. It’s a small bubble. Cornas is a rustic, difficult, often inaccessible and polarizing wine. Try Levet on some unsuspecting wine drinkers... :)

I would think that classically styled Rioja would be more appropriate a comparison. LRA and LdH are hardly punishing consumers price wise, despite scores of excellent vintages.
La Rioja Alta owns over 400 hectares! Lopez de Heredia owns 450 acres or ~170 hectares of which Tondonia makes up over 100 hectares. Lynch Bages is 90 hectares.

Cornas is 114 hectares in total! Kinda wild when you think about that!
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#46 Post by Markus S » September 24th, 2018, 11:03 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 9:30 am
Markus S wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 4:29 am

Ooo, you're attacking some sacred cows here. I'd agree with the rusticity comments, but one thing about Cornas is that - when you are drinking it - you really Do get a sense-of-place that you could be nowhere else but the Northern Rhone Valley.
If you mean it´s attacking holy cows when stating that I estimate Cote-Rotie and Hermitage higher than Cornas ... well ... so be it ... flirtysmile
No, not that. Just the fact of mentioning Verset not being worthy...that's fighting words to many of the true believers here!
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#47 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 24th, 2018, 11:33 am

Markus S wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 8:05 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 7:32 am
You guys need to discover Madiran.
Lots of tannin, big,hearty and not much subtlety.
Not true, give it 15-20 years it'll mellow in subtlety considerably.
Respectfully disagree. Bought a small cellar a couple of years ago which included a ton of 1989 and 1990 Madiran.Age does not mellow them much and the mule kicking tannins remain.

Still have a few left, and they confuse wonderfully in blind tastings.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#48 Post by Gerhard P. » September 24th, 2018, 12:33 pm

Charles Zedlewski wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 10:00 am
....
My top 5 cornas would probably be Allemand Renard, Clape, Tunnel Pur Noir, Paris Geynale and Balthazar Chaillot. Average price across all of those is roughly $100 (at today's more inflated pricing). What would you suggest are 5 wines from cote rotie or hermitage that come close to that price & quality?
The price comparison was never in (my) discussion), you wrote:

"... and to my tastes Cornas is every bit as good as its counterparts in those other villages."

... so it was about quality and not price ...
Moreover I do not know your access to the market incl. prices (US? Europe?) ...
I´m buying usually in France, mostly off domaines ...

Cote-Rotie: if no Guigal nor Jamet ... Rostaing (Ampodium, La Landonne, Cote blonde), Stephane Ogier (Mon Village, Reserve ... if not Belle Helene and Lancement), Gangloff Barbarine, Clusel-Roch classic and Grandes Places, Noel Champet La Viaillere, Henri Gallet Cote blonde ... (and more modern producers like Gerin, Monteillet ...)

Hermitage: if not JL Chave nor Chapoutier (4 diff. vineyards) nor Jaboulet ... Domaine des Remizieres (Emilie), Sorrel (regular and Greal), Colombier .... Faurie, Belle ...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#49 Post by Gerhard P. » September 24th, 2018, 12:42 pm

Markus S wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 11:03 am
Gerhard P. wrote:
September 24th, 2018, 9:30 am

If you mean it´s attacking holy cows when stating that I estimate Cote-Rotie and Hermitage higher than Cornas ... well ... so be it ... flirtysmile
No, not that. Just the fact of mentioning Verset not being worthy...that's fighting words to many of the true believers here!
Verset is/was an excellent producer ... but he was not THAT much better than Clape/Allemand/R.Michel ... and the actual prices are simply crazy and caused only by rarity ...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#50 Post by RickieM » September 24th, 2018, 12:48 pm

Kirkland 2016 Cornas - $14.99.
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