The Rising Price of Cornas

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Greg K
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#151 Post by Greg K » October 22nd, 2018, 10:24 am

Claus Jeppesen wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 10:18 am
c fu wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 9:52 am
I just got an email from a UK merchant for $26USD a btl for Domaine Lionnett 2011-2014
His Terre Brûlée is good in almost any vintage since 1999
Agreed, I’m a big fan.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#152 Post by Claus Jeppesen » October 22nd, 2018, 10:24 am

Alan Eden wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 2:34 pm
A. So wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 1:24 pm
Alan Eden wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 1:18 pm
These prices make US wines good value, top syrah for $100, top cabs $150-200
They'd be good value if they were as good.
OK, beat a Macdonald for $165 in Bdx ? Beat a Chris Tynan syrah for $75 in Rhone ? Current prices not twenty years ago, Beat a Bedrock 2013 exposition in Rhone for $60 ?

Bedrock is a 100 pts and probably the greatest wine ive tasted, certainly the best value
I know some Slovakians who prefer their local wines to the French. Guess patriotism means more than quality for them [head-bang.gif]
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#153 Post by Alan Rath » October 22nd, 2018, 10:27 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 4:34 am
Alan Eden wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 7:41 pm
Why do French wine drinkers always come across with an air of smugness and arrogance that makes you want to slap them ?

Chess v Checkers !!

There is nothing about preferring French wine that makes anyone more educated or superior, its just a different style of wine. Its like saying Germans are more sophisticated car buyers because they did cars first, total hogwash. Is a BMW better than a Ford ? some would say maybe but ive owned both and my 3 Fords have been 100% reliable, my 3 BMW or Audi's have been unreliable crap. Same with wine, just because the French have history and a smugness it does not make the wine intellectually superior in any way.
Alan,
Probably one of the more offensive posts I have read on this board, and completely unnecessary.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#154 Post by Alan Rath » October 22nd, 2018, 10:39 am

Markus S wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 10:00 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 8:47 am
Why is nobody talking about Alain Voges’ Cornas. Makes a really good VV wine for $50/60
Too ripe. The fashionistas would rather drink thin, acidic swill than a smooth drinking seerah. [cheers.gif]
Voge has, for a long time, been on the riper end of the spectrum for the region. In leaner years (like 2011) it can be very, very good, otherwise it's a tasty wine, but somehow misses the Cornas-ness I seek from the region. Much like the Rémizières in Hermitage (also easily found and quite affordable here).
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#155 Post by Greg K » October 22nd, 2018, 10:48 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 5:14 am
Greg K wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 11:07 pm
Alan Eden wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 7:41 pm
Why do French wine drinkers always come across with an air of smugness and arrogance that makes you want to slap them ?

Chess v Checkers !!

There is nothing about preferring French wine that makes anyone more educated or superior, its just a different style of wine. Its like saying Germans are more sophisticated car buyers because they did cars first, total hogwash. Is a BMW better than a Ford ? some would say maybe but ive owned both and my 3 Fords have been 100% reliable, my 3 BMW or Audi's have been unreliable crap. Same with wine, just because the French have history and a smugness it does not make the wine intellectually superior in any way.
I'm surprised you're able to walk with a chip that big on your shoulder.
It’s a big oak chip from all his fancy, nouveau California whines.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#156 Post by John Morris » October 22nd, 2018, 11:03 am

Claus Jeppesen wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 10:24 am
I know some Slovakians who prefer their local wines to the French. Guess patriotism means more than quality for them [head-bang.gif]
Unfortunately for Alan, Wales is not known for its wines.
"But they told me there would be a hand basket."

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#157 Post by Mike Evans » October 22nd, 2018, 11:46 am

Alan Rath wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 10:39 am
Voge has, for a long time, been on the riper end of the spectrum for the region. In leaner years (like 2011) it can be very, very good, otherwise it's a tasty wine, but somehow misses the Cornas-ness I seek from the region. Much like the Rémizières in Hermitage (also easily found and quite affordable here).
I wouldn’t put Voge any where close to Rémizières in terms of ripeness or intensity of wood. To me, a producer like Durand is a much better analog to Rémizières.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#158 Post by Alan Rath » October 22nd, 2018, 11:54 am

Mike, if you're saying that Remizieres is riper than Voge, I won't disagree, just trying to make an analogy to another warmer wine that is pretty available and affordable. I think both would make good gateways for someone with more California tastes.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#159 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 22nd, 2018, 12:22 pm

Alan might like Vogue. Serious.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#160 Post by Alan Rath » October 22nd, 2018, 12:39 pm

I certainly do ;)
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#161 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 22nd, 2018, 12:40 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 12:39 pm
I certainly do ;)
Cali-Yak palate! ;)
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#162 Post by Alan Eden » October 22nd, 2018, 1:15 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 11:03 am
Claus Jeppesen wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 10:24 am
I know some Slovakians who prefer their local wines to the French. Guess patriotism means more than quality for them [head-bang.gif]
Unfortunately for Alan, Wales is not known for its wines.
Very good beer, good Whiskey ( Pendyrn), not much wine to far North even for whites, plus all the smoke from the steel mills and coal mines does stop the sun getting through especially in South Wales where the peasants live.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#163 Post by ATaylor » October 22nd, 2018, 1:19 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 4:34 am
Alan Eden wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 7:41 pm
Why do French wine drinkers always come across with an air of smugness and arrogance that makes you want to slap them ?

Chess v Checkers !!

There is nothing about preferring French wine that makes anyone more educated or superior, its just a different style of wine. Its like saying Germans are more sophisticated car buyers because they did cars first, total hogwash. Is a BMW better than a Ford ? some would say maybe but ive owned both and my 3 Fords have been 100% reliable, my 3 BMW or Audi's have been unreliable crap. Same with wine, just because the French have history and a smugness it does not make the wine intellectually superior in any way.
Alan,
Probably one of the more ignorant posts I have read on this board, and completely unnecessary. FIFY
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#164 Post by Mark Golodetz » October 22nd, 2018, 1:30 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 11:03 am
Claus Jeppesen wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 10:24 am
I know some Slovakians who prefer their local wines to the French. Guess patriotism means more than quality for them [head-bang.gif]
Unfortunately for Alan, Wales is not known for its wines.
Rubbish! No lesser authority than Monty Python declared that “Old Smokey 1968 can favorably be compared to a Welsh Claret....”
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#165 Post by John Morris » October 22nd, 2018, 1:37 pm

Who knew? I stand corrected.
"But they told me there would be a hand basket."

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#166 Post by Alan Eden » October 22nd, 2018, 1:57 pm

Welsh Claret is definetly better than that Bdx crap, not as good as Napa claret though
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#167 Post by Alan Rath » October 22nd, 2018, 2:46 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 12:40 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 12:39 pm
I certainly do ;)
Cali-Yak palate! ;)
it's true, I will drink that Cali-yak Vogue stuff any time [snort.gif]
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#168 Post by Craig G » October 22nd, 2018, 3:26 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 2:46 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 12:40 pm
Alan Rath wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 12:39 pm
I certainly do ;)
Cali-Yak palate! ;)
it's true, I will drink that Cali-yak Vogue stuff any time [snort.gif]
Robert is a Yak-speller.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#169 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 22nd, 2018, 3:50 pm

I am always in vogue!
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#170 Post by G. Bienstock » October 22nd, 2018, 7:46 pm

My how things have changed. When I was with Martin Scott Wines in NJ up to 05 I never had more than 1 account ask for our Hermitage and St Joseph. We had Courbis and a somewhat modern producer using excellent old vine fruit, their name escapes me now, and Tardieu Laurent. Prices were a lot lower then too. My how things have changed!

The Northern Rhones are now priced like Barolo.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#171 Post by Gerhard P. » October 23rd, 2018, 1:51 am

Claus Jeppesen wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 10:24 am
Alan Eden wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 2:34 pm
A. So wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 1:24 pm

They'd be good value if they were as good.
OK, beat a Macdonald for $165 in Bdx ? Beat a Chris Tynan syrah for $75 in Rhone ? Current prices not twenty years ago, Beat a Bedrock 2013 exposition in Rhone for $60 ?

Bedrock is a 100 pts and probably the greatest wine ive tasted, certainly the best value
I know some Slovakians who prefer their local wines to the French. Guess patriotism means more than quality for them [head-bang.gif]
My (now late) neighbour prefered his own home-made wine (Müller-Thurgau from cheaply purchased grapes) to a Riesling GC Brand (Alsace) I once brought half-empty from a tasting and let him taste over our garden fence ...
[wow.gif] [shrug.gif]
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#172 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 23rd, 2018, 4:20 am

Build a higher fence!
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#173 Post by Gerhard P. » October 23rd, 2018, 5:28 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
October 23rd, 2018, 4:20 am
Build a higher fence!
My neighbour has passed several years ago ... [cry.gif] ... and there were other things than wine ...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#174 Post by Sh@n A » October 23rd, 2018, 7:31 am

G. Bienstock wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 7:46 pm
The Northern Rhones are now priced like Barolo.
But much easier to buy the "blue chip" Rhones!
/ @ g r @ \

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#175 Post by Claus Jeppesen » October 23rd, 2018, 10:36 am

John Morris wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 1:37 pm
Who knew? I stand corrected.
Me too
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#176 Post by Jayson Cohen » October 23rd, 2018, 6:58 pm

Markus S wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 4:50 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 3:06 pm
I paid under $75 for all my my Juge Cornas syrahs
Please don't use your exclusive country lawyer in-the-know pricing on unobtainable wines. These are now $400 wines, NOT $75.
I would not charge you a dime over $390.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#177 Post by Matt vdM » July 24th, 2019, 8:29 am

I know this is an old thread, but it resonated with me. I've recently become obsessed with Cornas and wanted to start a modest collection to drink from over the next 10 years. Here is what I bought, all at $40 or less per bottle with the exception of the Franck Balthazar (at $50):

3 Domaine du Tunnel Cornas 2012
3 Dumien-Serrette Cornas "Patou" 2015
3 Franck Balthazar Cornas 2015
3 Domaine Vincent Paris Cornas "Granit 60" 2017

The $40-50 price point seemed to me a sweet spot for honest, well-made Cornas from a new generation of growers. Thoughts? Did I miss anything?

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#178 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » July 24th, 2019, 8:51 am

I've been a fan of the Alain Verset wines.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#179 Post by Matt vdM » July 24th, 2019, 8:53 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:51 am
I've been a fan of the Alain Verset wines.
Ah, good one -- also currently available between $40-50 depending on the vintage and supplier.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#180 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 11:09 am

Lionnet is within your price range, and the vintages since about 09 are very good.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#181 Post by Yao C » July 24th, 2019, 12:38 pm

Matt vdM wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:29 am
3 Domaine Vincent Paris Cornas "Granit 60" 2017
I've never quite been able to tell their Granit 60 apart from their Granit 30

Also it's Cote Rotie not Cornas but I have enjoyed Xavier Gerard, and it should be right around your price range (thanks Charlie :))
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#182 Post by Keith Levenberg » July 24th, 2019, 12:45 pm

Charles Zedlewski wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 4:12 pm
Maybe this is the wrong way to look at it but:

- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Burgundy it will run you $3,000 a bottle in an average vintage and $5,000 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Barolo it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,200 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Bordeaux it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,000 a bottle in a great vintage

For northern rhone? The "top of the line" syrah in Cornas or Hermitage will run you $250 a bottle in an average vintage and $500 a bottle in a great vintage.
Almost all of that is wrong in my book. For one thing, the single most important factor in getting a "top of the line" experience is drinking the wine at the right time. This isn't based on how much you spend, but on how patiently you're able to wait and how good your storage is. That aside, the price numbers you're using are based on a small number of wines priced that way because of the cachet of the brand, not because they necessarily stand alone at the top in quality. I do agree that makes Chave, the consensus (and deserved) trophy label in Hermitage, a bit of a relative bargain. Cornas currently lacks a trophy label so there's no $700 version to point to, unless you count old Verset, but that doesn't mean that $250 (or $75) Cornas is better than $250 (or $75) Burgundy, Barolo, or Bordeaux.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#183 Post by John Morris » July 24th, 2019, 2:00 pm

G. Bienstock wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 7:46 pm
The Northern Rhones are now priced like Barolo.
Just saw this post from last year now. I disagree. Below the level of the trophy producers in the Langhe (e.g., Giacosa, G. Conterno, B. Mascarello, R. Voerzio, etc.) there is a great deal of excellent wine for well under $100, even under $60. Production is so much less in the Northern Rhone that there are many fewer really good producers below the level of the Chaves and Allemands.

For comparison, here are the planted areas in hectares:

Hermitage - 137
Cote Rotie - 224
Cornas - 114
TOTAL: 475

Barolo - 1,734
Barbaresco - 671
TOTAL: 2,405
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#184 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » July 24th, 2019, 2:18 pm

I notice you didn’t mention st Joseph

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#185 Post by John Morris » July 24th, 2019, 2:45 pm

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 2:18 pm
I notice you didn’t mention st Joseph
You can't really compare St. Joseph because it's a weird appellation, a sort of catch-all stretching from Condrieu to Cornas. It's ~920 hectares, but most of that isn't remotely comparable to the big three appellations. (It was expanded from less than 100ha in 1971.) So you have Gonon, Chave, Faury and a few others who make really good wine there, but most of St. Joseph is not in the same league. (Click here for a map.)

Same thing with Crozes-Hermitage, at 1,325 hectares. There are a few good producers and sites, but most of the appellation is on a relatively flat plane and isn't prime.

In Piedmont, the comparable appellation would probably be Langhe, which encompasses lots of different soils and exposures and quality levels.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#186 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » July 24th, 2019, 3:17 pm

Charles Zedlewski wrote:
September 23rd, 2018, 4:12 pm
Maybe this is the wrong way to look at it but:

- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Burgundy it will run you $3,000 a bottle in an average vintage and $5,000 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Barolo it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,200 in a great vintage.
- If you want to drink the "top of the line" Bordeaux it will run you $700 a bottle in an average vintage and $1,000 a bottle in a great vintage

For northern rhone? The "top of the line" syrah in Cornas or Hermitage will run you $250 a bottle in an average vintage and $500 a bottle in a great vintage.

On that basis, I have zero complaints about the state of rhone pricing. Cornas specifically is only slowly inching towards where Hermitage and Cote Rotie already are and to my tastes Cornas is every bit as good as its counterparts in those other villages.
LOL that's the wrong way to look at it. The other regions you mention (especially Bordeaux and Burgundy) have a large number of incredible world class wines available for well under the price of "top of the line" examples, which have inflated prices due to celebrity/snob value. You mention a price of $250-500, that would get you an absolutely amazing Bordeaux or Burgundy that is among the best wines in the world. You could also hit that quality level for $100-200 in Bordeaux or Burgundy if you knew what you were doing.

[edited to say -- I see others made essentially this point above]

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#187 Post by Greg K » July 24th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Yao C wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:38 pm
Matt vdM wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:29 am
3 Domaine Vincent Paris Cornas "Granit 60" 2017
I've never quite been able to tell their Granit 60 apart from their Granit 30

Also it's Cote Rotie not Cornas but I have enjoyed Xavier Gerard, and it should be right around your price range (thanks Charlie :))
I like Gerard (and went very deep on his 15 Lala), but I should caution that his regular Cote Rotie isn't necessarily what I'd want from a textbook Cornas - it's a bit more polished.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#188 Post by Nathan V. » July 25th, 2019, 6:31 am

Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:32 pm
Yao C wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:38 pm
Matt vdM wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:29 am
3 Domaine Vincent Paris Cornas "Granit 60" 2017
I've never quite been able to tell their Granit 60 apart from their Granit 30

Also it's Cote Rotie not Cornas but I have enjoyed Xavier Gerard, and it should be right around your price range (thanks Charlie :))
I like Gerard (and went very deep on his 15 Lala), but I should caution that his regular Cote Rotie isn't necessarily what I'd want from a textbook Cornas - it's a bit more polished.
How does one go deep? The entire allocation for the 2016 was 3b for the entire state of NC. Did Crush/Flatiron/etc all sell you their entire allocation? Was it grey market?
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#189 Post by Greg K » July 25th, 2019, 6:36 am

Nathan V. wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:31 am
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:32 pm
Yao C wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 12:38 pm


I've never quite been able to tell their Granit 60 apart from their Granit 30

Also it's Cote Rotie not Cornas but I have enjoyed Xavier Gerard, and it should be right around your price range (thanks Charlie :))
I like Gerard (and went very deep on his 15 Lala), but I should caution that his regular Cote Rotie isn't necessarily what I'd want from a textbook Cornas - it's a bit more polished.
How does one go deep? The entire allocation for the 2016 was 3b for the entire state of NC. Did Crush/Flatiron/etc all sell you their entire allocation? Was it grey market?
It was not grey market, and while depth is relative, this is not exactly like Gentaz today. Bottles were available in New York.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#190 Post by Nathan V. » July 25th, 2019, 6:52 am

Greg K wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:36 am
Nathan V. wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:31 am
Greg K wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:32 pm


I like Gerard (and went very deep on his 15 Lala), but I should caution that his regular Cote Rotie isn't necessarily what I'd want from a textbook Cornas - it's a bit more polished.
How does one go deep? The entire allocation for the 2016 was 3b for the entire state of NC. Did Crush/Flatiron/etc all sell you their entire allocation? Was it grey market?
It was not grey market, and while depth is relative, this is not exactly like Gentaz today. Bottles were available in New York.
Yeah, nothing is like Gentaz and especially a wine like this with no real track record. I like the Gerard wines and I bought the Landonne without ever trying a bottle from 2016 or any previous vintage (a practice I don't really like to engage in, even if other folks rave about something there is no way to know if it will work for you, unless you have someone who knows your palate really well).

Agree that Gerard C-R isn't a good substitute for Cornas, I don't really get that. Gerard is good, polished Côte-Rôtie fairly priced.
ITB-ish.
V = V a n der g r i f t

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#191 Post by Sh@n A » July 25th, 2019, 6:55 am

Greg K wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:36 am
It was not grey market, and while depth is relative, this is not exactly like Gentaz today. Bottles were available in New York.
Talking 2015 or 2016?
/ @ g r @ \

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#192 Post by Greg K » July 25th, 2019, 7:01 am

Nathan V. wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:52 am
Greg K wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:36 am
Nathan V. wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:31 am


How does one go deep? The entire allocation for the 2016 was 3b for the entire state of NC. Did Crush/Flatiron/etc all sell you their entire allocation? Was it grey market?
It was not grey market, and while depth is relative, this is not exactly like Gentaz today. Bottles were available in New York.
Yeah, nothing is like Gentaz and especially a wine like this with no real track record. I like the Gerard wines and I bought the Landonne without ever trying a bottle from 2016 or any previous vintage (a practice I don't really like to engage in, even if other folks rave about something there is no way to know if it will work for you, unless you have someone who knows your palate really well).

Agree that Gerard C-R isn't a good substitute for Cornas, I don't really get that. Gerard is good, polished Côte-Rôtie fairly priced.
I've opened one bottle of his 2013 and I thought it was a major step up and a significant difference; it's a more "serious" Cote Rotie, is how I would put it. More stuffing and less polish. On that basis, and on certain other factors, I was willing to take the "chance". But I buy it on its own merit, not as a Cornas replacement. Plenty of good Cornas around without the need for that.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#193 Post by Greg K » July 25th, 2019, 7:02 am

Sh@n A wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:55 am
Greg K wrote:
July 25th, 2019, 6:36 am
It was not grey market, and while depth is relative, this is not exactly like Gentaz today. Bottles were available in New York.
Talking 2015 or 2016?
2015.
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#194 Post by Arv R » July 25th, 2019, 9:36 pm

Matt vdM wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 8:29 am
I know this is an old thread, but it resonated with me. I've recently become obsessed with Cornas and wanted to start a modest collection to drink from over the next 10 years. Here is what I bought, all at $40 or less per bottle with the exception of the Franck Balthazar (at $50):

3 Domaine du Tunnel Cornas 2012
3 Dumien-Serrette Cornas "Patou" 2015
3 Franck Balthazar Cornas 2015
3 Domaine Vincent Paris Cornas "Granit 60" 2017

The $40-50 price point seemed to me a sweet spot for honest, well-made Cornas from a new generation of growers. Thoughts? Did I miss anything?
I enjoyed a furry 2003 D-S Patou a couple of winters ago. Give your 2015 some time if you can

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=127488&p=2417464&hi ... u#p2417464
R_@_0

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#195 Post by James Billy » July 26th, 2019, 11:15 pm

John Morris wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 2:00 pm
G. Bienstock wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 7:46 pm
The Northern Rhones are now priced like Barolo.
Just saw this post from last year now. I disagree. Below the level of the trophy producers in the Langhe (e.g., Giacosa, G. Conterno, B. Mascarello, R. Voerzio, etc.) there is a great deal of excellent wine for well under $100, even under $60. Production is so much less in the Northern Rhone that there are many fewer really good producers below the level of the Chaves and Allemands.

For comparison, here are the planted areas in hectares:

Hermitage - 137
Cote Rotie - 224
Cornas - 114
TOTAL: 475

Barolo - 1,734
Barbaresco - 671
TOTAL: 2,405
I agree. A lot of poor wine made in the Northern Rhone.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#196 Post by NoahR » July 27th, 2019, 3:21 am

James Billy wrote:
July 26th, 2019, 11:15 pm
John Morris wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 2:00 pm
G. Bienstock wrote:
October 22nd, 2018, 7:46 pm
The Northern Rhones are now priced like Barolo.
Just saw this post from last year now. I disagree. Below the level of the trophy producers in the Langhe (e.g., Giacosa, G. Conterno, B. Mascarello, R. Voerzio, etc.) there is a great deal of excellent wine for well under $100, even under $60. Production is so much less in the Northern Rhone that there are many fewer really good producers below the level of the Chaves and Allemands.

For comparison, here are the planted areas in hectares:

Hermitage - 137
Cote Rotie - 224
Cornas - 114
TOTAL: 475

Barolo - 1,734
Barbaresco - 671
TOTAL: 2,405
I agree. A lot of poor wine made in the Northern Rhone.
The Barolo DOC is much larger than Cornas, C-R and Hermitage, (unless you start including Crozes etc) but there is a TON of crap Barolo being made and, while there is a plethora of serious and good mid-range producers in Barolo, the same exists in the Northern Rhone. This thread and others have noted that there are tons of good producers in various styles below the price of Clape and Allemand and Chave.

These are both regions that have undergone serious modernization, improvement and rise in status/desire driven by somewhat controversial use of oak and stylistic changes (Gaja in Barolo and Guigal in Rhône), where now the world market favors the traditionalists more. Lots of producers straddle the line between the two in both regions, most producers are still small scale, and many are dealing with generational changes in terms of winemaking.

I don’t know why folks are so eager to argue that there’s no comparison...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#197 Post by James Billy » July 27th, 2019, 4:39 am

I've found more bad Barolos in some subregions than others. La Morra being my least favourite. It is difficult to be certain if it's (modern) winemaking or terroir, though.

I'd much rather drink Gaja than Guigal any day!

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#198 Post by NoahR » July 27th, 2019, 5:05 am

James Billy wrote:
July 27th, 2019, 4:39 am
I've found more bad Barolos in some subregions than others. La Morra being my least favourite. It is difficult to be certain if it's (modern) winemaking or terroir, though.

I'd much rather drink Gaja than Guigal any day!
Agree. La Morra tends to be riper and hotter but I agree it’s also the winemaking tending towards modern...
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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#199 Post by Charles Zedlewski » July 27th, 2019, 8:18 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
July 24th, 2019, 3:17 pm

LOL that's the wrong way to look at it. The other regions you mention (especially Bordeaux and Burgundy) have a large number of incredible world class wines available for well under the price of "top of the line" examples, which have inflated prices due to celebrity/snob value. You mention a price of $250-500, that would get you an absolutely amazing Bordeaux or Burgundy that is among the best wines in the world. You could also hit that quality level for $100-200 in Bordeaux or Burgundy if you knew what you were doing.

[edited to say -- I see others made essentially this point above]
And you can still drink excellent rhone for $50 / bottle or 1/2 to 1/5 the cost of the burgundy examples you cite. For example the 2017 Paris Geynale ran me $40 just a few months ago and the 2016 Voge VV is only a few dollars more. The entire price scale for northern rhone from entry level to most costly is a fair bit better than bordeaux and substantially better than burgundy.

The parallels to piedmont are pretty strong and it makes sense that piedmont has been a little more merciful on the price escalation due to the substantially larger supply. And as Noah pointed out there's still a lot of mediocre barolo being made that will start to improve now that there's a price to motivate it.

Everyone has their own easy explanation for what price is due to celebrity/snob value and what is not. Largely it seems to be if it's a price higher than you're willing to pay it must be celebrity/snob and if it's a price you're willing to pay it's great QPR.

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Re: The Rising Price of Cornas

#200 Post by NoahR » July 27th, 2019, 8:30 am

Having watched a video of multiple Northern rhone growers farm by hand these ridiculously steep slopes that would never be able to be mechanized, I’m a little shocked at how INEXPENSIVE it is compared to the labor.
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