Hybrid wine shops/bars - Vinepair article

This article came to my attention today.

Here in South OC there are a number of these hybrid shops but they almost all serve more food than just the “snacks” the article describes. Most have +/- 100 wines at retail and serve what I’d describe as ‘small plate’ menus which include a dozen or more options from appetizers to cheese boards to flatbreads.

I’ve used to own one and have worked in two others since. In all cases I found there was apparent confusion on the part of customers regarding pricing and certainly about tipping. The Vinepair article addresses pricing but, though it says tipping is a question, doesn’t really address why that’s so.

To the extent that the wine tasting element of these places (either small tastes or full glasses) can be interpreted as a way to sell wine at retail, much the same as a winery tasting room, the fact that ‘substantial’ food is served I’d think would make tipping much the same as in a regular bar or restaurant. But I can tell you that it doesn’t for many customers. I have my own theories as to why but I’m interested in other ideas.

I guess it varies with location, but these ‘hybrids’ have been around long enough that I find it hard to think most people still find the concept confusing. What do you think.

Those seem to be a phenomenon in CA. They’re illegal in NY. They tried to open something along those lines in Tribeca and the authorities made them put up a glass wall to physically separate the on-premise consumption from the off-premise sales.

They’re not so uncommon in Europe. I’m not sure I’m a big fan. I suppose if they’re done right, they’re OK but sometimes they stash tables around the shelves and you’re sitting there having a conversation and someone’s trying to look over your shoulder at a bottle.

But as to tipping, I tip on the food just like at a restaurant.

If anyone is in Reno, they have a pretty nice one called Whispering Vines. No affiliation, but they have one of the best wine lists in the city too.

Noticed a few of these in SF when I was there last week and I’m a fan. Most let you open anything in the shop for a minimal corkage fee ($5-$10). Good way to try something while out without paying a massive restaurant markup.

If “Joe” or “Susie” were pouring me wines to taste and took the time telling me about the winery, clonal selection, layout of the land, barrel selections, etc. while serving me food, it’s highly likely I’d tip. That said, I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if others didn’t tip.

Many large winery tasting rooms don’t accept tips.

Tipping and wine is confusing, in some ways.

Let’s look at a couple scenarios.

You go to a tasting menu restaurant which is $200 for the food. You buy a bottle of 2002 krug for $800. Your total bill is $1100 with tax. What do you tip?

You go to the same restaurant but bring the bottle of 2002 krug and pay $50 for corkage. Your bill is $275 with tax. What do you tip?

Basically in the above 2 scenarios you’re getting exactly the same product.

In the wine bar scenario are you tipping based on the price of the bottle? Or the $10? Or just the cost of the food? Presumably if you bought btg, you’d tip on that value?

At bars I’ll often tip a flat rate per drink if I’m buying wine, beer, or straight alcohol. If the bartender is making a cocktail that’s different but it isn’t any more work to pour from a more expensive bottle than a cheaper one, imo.

This is specious. It’s not more work to serve a Miyazaki A5 entree than it is to serve a chicken breast.

We have something similar locally but it’s a full-on restaurant plus retail wine store. Food is very good, one of our favorite local places. Wine selection is very good, prices are ok but I do better elsewhere when buying for the cellar.

It’s easy to find something good (if not aged) to accompany dinner and at retail plus $10 pricing is great compared to most other restaurants.

I tip the same as at any restaurant, usually ~25% on the total bill. But I’m not buying $800 bottles.

Interesting point and I suppose in that case I’d agree. But I have never had that situation in the US. Generally I spend a lot of time hunting down the wine and then I explain it to the waiter or waitress. I’ve made some good friends that way.

In Hungary and Austria and France where I didn’t know much about the wines, the vineyards, etc., I was happy to listen because the few places I’ve been to in those countries had super knowlegable staff. It wasn’t like someone needed a job while in school. For some reason they were always really passionate about wine and knew plenty. Haven’t encountered that in the US.

Out of curiosity, did you tip that percentage 20-30 years ago?

That part of the argument is specious. But tip is based on custom and exists as supplemental income. At most restaurants, waiters are part of the tip pool, and the tip pool makes up the majority of their take-home income. That is not necessarily the case for a sommelier, many of whom are salaried and part of management. A lavish tip to a waiter based on somm service is farcical. You’d be better slipping the somm a $20 than tipping $160 on a Krug if the somm is out of the tip pool and you’re trying to reward good wine service. If the somm is part of the tip pool, but the restaurant has established a corkage policy, has the restaurant confirmed that cost of service = X? Or does the restaurant pocket the corkage policy? I really don’t know the answer to that question. The restaurant is denied markup and the wait staff or somm still has to do the work. How does it play? I don’t know. If the somm does not serve you and leaves it to a waiter, what do you do? Adrian I’m curious to know what YOU do if you order a $200 or $800 bottle at dinner?

What I do know is that while I consider myself a fairly lavish tipper on meals and service, I will not tip a set % on bottles of wine in large part because the tip gross numbers can get silly in a hurry despite what amounts to really minimal work. I will also note that I don’t think the custom at fine dining restaurants with big lists is to expect a fixed %. I would bet that expectations are a nice number once the bottle price is above, say $200, but not 20%.

No, 30 years ago I tipped 15-20%.

They started allowing these in Texas a few years ago, which was surprising considering how restrictive the TABC is in general. They aren’t everywhere, but they are a nice concept.

People don’t understand the concept of “corkage” in these establishments. From my experience many people don’t like to be told that $15 will be added to the sticker label of the bottle they have in their hands.

I request the menu and bar and wine list with pricing, corkage policy and fee, the prior year’s audited financial statements and monthly P&L from the restaurant, as well as last year’s tax returns and a completed anonymous custom questionnaire on salary and tip distribution from every employee prior to making a reservation.

I’ve developed proprietary software which analyzes this data and determines the tip amount under any scenario or combination of food and drink orders that would be considered appropriate by 68.27% of Wine Berserkers. It takes into account tax laws in the 50 states and DC.

I’m making the software available to Berserkers on a subscription basis for the low introductory fee of one bottle of Krug MV per month. The first 100 to sign up will be eligible for a free upgrade to the European version when it becomes available.

But do you have to tip me for the bottle of Krug MV that I provide you each month? Since it’s champagne, i’ll triple+ retail for my list price, then expect 25% tip. So you’ll need to tip me on $475 for the Krug bottle. I’ll let you decide whether you tip post 8.25% tax or pre. If after, you’ll need to kick me back $128.55. Because you chose Krug.

A similar thing I encounter is going to Santa Monica Seafood. They are a retail store and fish counter, but they also have a small dining area, and they sell prepared food you can eat in or take out.

So I buy a salmon filet and whole Loup de Mer from the fish counter, maybe the fish counter guy cleans the scales off the whole fish, I buy a to-go tub of clam chowder from the prepared food counter, and the whole thing comes on one credit card slip with a blank for you to leave a tip. I’m used to tipping when I have an opportunity and feel weird leaving it blank, but I’m not sure what to tip, and on what, in that situation. Am I tipping because the clam chowder is a prepared food? Am I tipping the fish guy for de-scaling the fish? If so, how much? Who would get the tip money if I left it? I really have no idea what to do, and the uncertainty has a slight tendency to make me uncomfortable going there.

Back to the wine hybrid place, somehow it feels weird to pay a corkage fee on the wine you buy from that place. I get that it makes sense (you’re theoretically paying retail price, not a restaurant list price, and them having you sit there and drink and be served and use stemware has a cost), but it just feels weird somehow - I guess you’re used to the idea of corkage being something you pay because you didn’t buy the wine from the place. And then you are tipping on the cost of the bottle plus the corkage fee. Lastly, these kinds of places usually seem to have prices that are already moderately higher than true retail places, to begin with. You’re paying $60 for a bottle that’s $45 at Hi Time or Wine Exchange.

I think the right thing to do is to tip on the cost of the bottle plus corkage, but it’s easy to imagine how people are uncertain and uncomfortable in the situation. Or maybe just don’t want to deal with it.

I’ll answer that question for $603.55. champagne.gif

And often, at these kinds of hybrid places, the prices are already higher than at pure retail places, furthering the confusion about why more price should be added on for opening the wine there.

Why does anybody find this confusing? If you get service, please tip.

If You drink/eat there, and get a few bottles to take home, tip on what you drank/ate there, not the extra bottles.

So pay tip on the corkage? Or the value of the bottle?

Regarding somms, my understanding is that their compensation at least at places selling expensive wines is salary plus commission on the bottle price. I don’t think they participate in the tip pool the same as servers. I’m not sure you can break out part of the tip as specifically for the somm unless you just hand them cash.