Ageability of Cali Pinot

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David P.
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Ageability of Cali Pinot

#1 Post by David P. » February 29th, 2020, 8:06 pm

Hi. I have been reading this forum for a while. A lot of times I see tasting notes of pinots from late 1990’s to early 2000’s and usually the descriptions are amazing saying that the wines are drinking late. I have started opening my wines recently from 2007-2009. These are high quality pinots like Kosta Browne, Dehlinger, etc... About 30% of the wine I ens up pouring down the sink, because it tastes so bad. I purchased the wine directly from the winery and it has been stored in offsite temp and humidity controlled storage. I just assumed that I held on to the bottles too long, but these great reviews of older bottles are confusing me.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#2 Post by AlexS » February 29th, 2020, 8:08 pm

[popcorn.gif]
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#3 Post by Chr!s G|@rn3r » February 29th, 2020, 8:33 pm

Kosta Browne is (was?) made in a more modern, ripe style of pinot that was meant for early drinking. The wines you are reading about that are great at 20-30 years old are likely made in an entirely different style.

On a positive note, for some reason, aged KB still gets a decent price on the secondary market..........

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#4 Post by Bdklein » February 29th, 2020, 9:20 pm

David P. wrote:
February 29th, 2020, 8:06 pm
Hi. I have been reading this forum for a while. A lot of times I see tasting notes of pinots from late 1990’s to early 2000’s and usually the descriptions are amazing saying that the wines are drinking late. I have started opening my wines recently from 2007-2009. These are high quality pinots like Kosta Browne, Dehlinger, etc... About 30% of the wine I ens up pouring down the sink, because it tastes so bad. I purchased the wine directly from the winery and it has been stored in offsite temp and humidity controlled storage. I just assumed that I held on to the bottles too long, but these great reviews of older bottles are confusing me.
I think the bottles were held long -IMO . I don’t think KB was designed/meant to be aged for 10+ years . Not saying it can’t hold up nor doesn’t need some time to come together-but the wine doesn’t need to aged .

Also , I find some people cellar Cali pinot too long and decant too long and serve the wine at temperatures too warm-which IMO makes the wines not show properly.

YMMV (first time using that term -I think).
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#5 Post by John Ammons » February 29th, 2020, 10:43 pm

Re Dehlinger: The 2007s notwithstanding as I wasn't a fan, I'd expect the 2008s and 09s to be drinking very well now. These pinots can go 10+ years easily.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#6 Post by GregP » February 29th, 2020, 10:48 pm

I've opened a number of late '90s/early'00s Dehlingers recently, all drinking fine. Holding some for longer, at least another 4-6 years on a conservative side based on those tastings. And my tasting group had a 2004 KB recently, in the usual blind setup we do (only blind or double blind, no exceptions), the wine showed really well.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#7 Post by Cris Whetstone » February 29th, 2020, 11:29 pm

It's less about the grape and more about things like vineyard sources and wine making.

Cabernet is generally considered age worthy but so little of it these days even on the high end seems to need more than 10 years of age to me. Most of it is just not made in a style that requires age for it to be at it's best. It's made to show it's exuberance when youngish. That doesn't mean it won't 'hold'. It just means it won't improve much.

Pinot is similar but has much more variety in terms of sources and wine making from California. It 'can' age but should a particular bottle of is the question. There are some fantastic Pinots that I think should be drank within three years of bottling. There are also some fantastic wines that I'm not sure if they will hit their peak at 20 years.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#8 Post by Wes Barton » March 1st, 2020, 12:47 am

David P. wrote:
February 29th, 2020, 8:06 pm
Hi. I have been reading this forum for a while. A lot of times I see tasting notes of pinots from late 1990’s to early 2000’s and usually the descriptions are amazing saying that the wines are drinking late. I have started opening my wines recently from 2007-2009. These are high quality pinots like Kosta Browne, Dehlinger, etc... About 30% of the wine I ens up pouring down the sink, because it tastes so bad. I purchased the wine directly from the winery and it has been stored in offsite temp and humidity controlled storage. I just assumed that I held on to the bottles too long, but these great reviews of older bottles are confusing me.

Aged KB are all over the place, running the gauntlet from excellent to horrific. Not one I'd bet on.

Mature Dehlinger are a good bet to be sound, enjoyable wines. Haven't had any profound ones from the '00s, but the '91 Reserve a few years ago, from when Fred Scherrer was winemaker, was knock-your-socks-off good, and blew away some special high-end Burgundies at a friend's bring-the-good-stuff b-day dinner. Recent vintages, under Eva, should be better bets.

The problem with that era was a lot of Johnny-come-lately winemakers and all the wineries getting buzz were pandering to a critic who likes big, uber-ripe wines and (claims he) doesn't like aged wines (but rates great aged wines well - much higher than he did on release).
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#9 Post by Jeff Vaughan » March 1st, 2020, 5:52 am

I just opened a Williams Selyem Peay vineyard from 2009. We’ve moved away from that style so take my comments accordingly. I’d say it wasn’t meant to be aged either, though perhaps the vintage played into that. Soft, no tannin, char and oak, light on acid. Lots of sweetish fruit. It’s not really what I like to drink. My wife hated it, but others at the table loved it. To each their own. I still have a few WS from 07 to 10 that I’ll roll the dice with when drinking with people that like that style.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#10 Post by Glenn P » March 1st, 2020, 5:58 am

I haven’t found that aging CA pinots helps that much. And not many hold up that long with the exception of Marcassin. I drink them whenever and really haven’t noticed a difference though I had a ‘08 Kistler cuvée Elizabeth last nite that was fabulous!!
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#11 Post by dave kammerer » March 1st, 2020, 6:33 am

Now drinking my 2010 Dehlinger Goldridges and they continue to be excellent. I was not a fan of the 2007's with age. 2011 Peay Scallop Shelf is now excellent as well as the Sonoma Coast bottling.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#12 Post by Chris Johnson » March 1st, 2020, 6:36 am

Curious if you’re doing pop and pour or decanting? I’ve been buying some here and there at auction on the cheap (Martinelli, W-S, Olsen Ogden). Many of them are overly sweet and taste madeira-ized when they open. I dump them into the decanter and check back in 30-60 min and a good portion of them open up into something pleasant/interesting to drink. My favorite this year was a 2004 Brogan Summa, went through nearly a case of the OO’s from 2007 I bought for 5.50/bottle last year.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#13 Post by Brian Tuite » March 1st, 2020, 7:07 am

2007 Copain Kiser “En Bas” last night was still drinking young @ 13yrs with plenty of fruit, acid and tannin in reserve and no secondary flavors developing yet. Depends on what you’re storing.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#14 Post by Nate Simon » March 1st, 2020, 7:10 am

This category is quite a mixed bag. Like others here, we’ve had varied results with aging these.
I would say that getting familiar with the styles of various producers is useful. Also, Cellartracker is your friend, and can give you some valuable intel.
Most importantly, and this is one of the pleasures of enjoying and living with wine, open these wines at various stages of aging and see what you think. Let your own palate be your guide, and enjoy seeing these wines evolve.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#15 Post by Mark Golodetz » March 1st, 2020, 7:25 am

Some of old Caleras were able to age 30 years, particularly from the Jensen vineyard. A little hit and miss, but quite lovely if you found a good bottle.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#16 Post by G. Bienstock » March 1st, 2020, 7:38 am

dave kammerer wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 6:33 am
Now drinking my 2010 Dehlinger Goldridges and they continue to be excellent.
I was very impressed with this recently.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#17 Post by Paul Miller » March 1st, 2020, 7:39 am

This reminds me I need to go pull some bottles

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#18 Post by Jim Clary » March 1st, 2020, 8:19 am

I posted on a Top Chef dinner at KB in November that featured a range of KB wines, including 3 2008 wines and a 2011. The newer 2016’s to me clearly were more pleasurable than the wines with age on them. The aged wines were very good, but didn’t have that spark that I get from a younger Pinot. My strategy is to age new releases for 3-4 years, and generally find them in a good place at that point. There are exceptions (think Rhys and Littorai specifically).
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#19 Post by Kevin Patrick » March 1st, 2020, 8:26 am

I found Kutch Pinot Noir to be wonderfully age-worthy wines. His entry level Sonoma Coast drinks wonderfully at 5+ years. His big boys (Falstaff and McDougal Ranch) can go 10 years easily.

I originally ear-marked 5 years as the time to begin popping the Kutch Pinots but after a couple dinners with 8-10+ year old Kutch, I really think that is when his bigger wines come into their own.

In a current thread there is a tasting note on a 7 year old McDougal where they found it young and strong but probably needing more years:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=167842

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#20 Post by Richard Albert » March 1st, 2020, 8:40 am

Several years ago 1978 and 1980 Chalone Pinot Noirs stopped me in my tracks and inspired me to find, buy and hold older Pinots from better vintages in spite of the fact that in that era Pinot Noir was challenging most CA winemakers.

From the 55 degree Davis Cellar, all with fills within one inch of the capsule:
Just over a year ago, a 1978 Dehlinger Sonoma was stunning and offering vibrant: rose, cherry, sandlewood and spice for three+ hours. The cork was partially saturated and alcohol and it was 12.9% ABV
The 1978 Kalin Sonoma should be matched with tea smoked duck as per Terry Leighton. 13.9%
Counselor Fu on Cellar Tacker says the 1974 Hanzell Sonoma has years of life left, so I will let it sleep a bit longer. 13.9%
One I am not sure of and am very curious about is the 1968 BV "Special Burgundy", very shortly its destiny will be fulfilled.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#21 Post by Jason T » March 1st, 2020, 9:04 am

Glenn P wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 5:58 am
I haven’t found that aging CA pinots helps that much. And not many hold up that long with the exception of Marcassin. I drink them whenever and really haven’t noticed a difference though I had a ‘08 Kistler cuvée Elizabeth last nite that was fabulous!!
Mt. Eden too. Totally different style for Marcassin and a fraction of the price, but will age (and evolve, unlike a lot of other California Pinot).
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#22 Post by Jason T » March 1st, 2020, 9:06 am

Richard Albert wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 8:40 am
Several years ago 1978 and 1980 Chalone Pinot Noirs stopped me in my tracks
Similar moment for me - 1974 David Bruce had in 2018. Haunting. Held up for nearly 4 hours in decanter.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#23 Post by Hal Blumberg » March 1st, 2020, 9:18 am

Hi David,

It's all about what flavor profiles you enjoy the most. No matter what critics or others tell you, maybe you like the more exuberant fruit of younger wines. Either that or try some CA pinots that have a great track record for aging and pick vintages that are aging well based on critics or CellarTracker. I think the recommendations above for ageability are good- Dehlinger, Mt Eden, Calera, etc. I'd add Talley (especially their Rosemary's) and Rhys.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#24 Post by Doug Lee » March 1st, 2020, 9:32 am

David,

FWIW a 2001 Arcadian Pisoni PN sampled 2 days ago was gorgeous and quite fresh. I typically don’t start sampling these wines until they have aged 15 years or more.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#25 Post by Glenn L e v i n e » March 1st, 2020, 9:53 am

Nate Simon wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 7:10 am
This category is quite a mixed bag. Like others here, we’ve had varied results with aging these.
Agreed. I have found no road to predictability with wonderful surprises I'd never expect and disappointments from pedigreed offerings.

Sort of like dating.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#26 Post by CJ Beazley » March 1st, 2020, 10:11 am

Isn’t there a happy medium between truly making old bones and just looking for some tannin resolution and the wine knitting together?
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#27 Post by dsimmons » March 1st, 2020, 10:20 am

Depends on the wine but maybe more importantly an individuals taste preferences. For my tastes I have found the conventional wisdom on domestic Pinots to be conservative.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#28 Post by Brady Daniels » March 1st, 2020, 10:37 am

CJ Beazley wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 10:11 am
Isn’t there a happy medium between truly making old bones and just looking for some tannin resolution and the wine knitting together?
I don’t know about a happy medium, but saying that a wine that lasts ten years qualifies as aging well surprises me. Not falling apart at ten years is surviving. IMHO, Aging well means a wine transforms into something very different, and to some palates - fantastic, over decades.

The wines from the ‘70’s above seem to qualify.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#29 Post by Mel Knox » March 1st, 2020, 10:46 am

When I taught wine classes the hardest question to answer was about ageing wine. What ages well and what doesn't?? Why should we age wine?? It used to be that developing smoothness was important but now that everyone seems to have managed tannins sometimes I am not sure what the point is. Wines changes but do they get better or just different??
I want what Brady wants, something fantastic.

With Pinot from the Golden State sometimes your best bet is a discussion with the people at the winery. Have the wines aged well and/or are they meant to age?? Sometimes extensive tasting notes are published here and that is a big help.

Of course, you cannot always trust winemaker's opinions. Burt Williams said his wines should be drunk in five years or so but if you read Blake Brown's notes it was more like thirty plus.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#30 Post by GregT » March 1st, 2020, 10:52 am

About 30% of the wine I ens up pouring down the sink, because it tastes so bad. I purchased the wine directly from the winery and it has been stored in offsite temp and humidity controlled storage. I just assumed that I held on to the bottles too long, but these great reviews of older bottles are confusing me.
As others have said, a lot depends. But you actually bring up a few separate things above. Here's how I would look at it:

1. You age wine to improve it. Not to keep it the way it was when bottled, or to preserve the primary fruit. If that's what you want, just drink it young.

2. For any serious wine, 2009 is not "older" or close to mature.

3. "High quality" has different meanings depending on who you are speaking to. Some people have never even considered buying a KB Pinot Noir.

4. Not all Pinot Noir is age-worthy Pinot Noir.

5. Not everyone who writes a tasting note has a clue as to what they're talking about. Take all those reviews with a grain of salt. Or ignore completely - your choice.

6. People like to feel good about their decisions, so even if they don't LOVE their wines, they often cut some slack in their review because they've spent money on the wine and they know the label. There's a reason companies build and protect their brands.

7. At the end of the day, the unfortunate truth is that you're talking about Pinot Noir. Do yourself a favor and look around for some real wine.

Best of luck!! [cheers.gif]
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#31 Post by Bdklein » March 1st, 2020, 11:15 am

GregT wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 10:52 am
About 30% of the wine I ens up pouring down the sink, because it tastes so bad. I purchased the wine directly from the winery and it has been stored in offsite temp and humidity controlled storage. I just assumed that I held on to the bottles too long, but these great reviews of older bottles are confusing me.
As others have said, a lot depends. But you actually bring up a few separate things above. Here's how I would look at it:

1. You age wine to improve it. Not to keep it the way it was when bottled, or to preserve the primary fruit. If that's what you want, just drink it young.

2. For any serious wine, 2009 is not "older" or close to mature.

3. "High quality" has different meanings depending on who you are speaking to. Some people have never even considered buying a KB Pinot Noir.

4. Not all Pinot Noir is age-worthy Pinot Noir.

5. Not everyone who writes a tasting note has a clue as to what they're talking about. Take all those reviews with a grain of salt. Or ignore completely - your choice.

6. People like to feel good about their decisions, so even if they don't LOVE their wines, they often cut some slack in their review because they've spent money on the wine and they know the label. There's a reason companies build and protect their brands.

7. At the end of the day, the unfortunate truth is that you're talking about Pinot Noir. Do yourself a favor and look around for some real wine.

Best of luck!! [cheers.gif]
You make some valid points. And one really asinine statement.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#32 Post by JohnP » March 1st, 2020, 12:33 pm

I don't plan to open any of my Ceritas or Calera Selleck before 10 year. Tried a 2011 Ceritas Costalina last year and was still far from peak. These producers definitely make 15 to 20 year old age-ability pinots. Also, Peter Michael and Morlet make robust pinots that have similar age-worthy trajectory.
Last edited by JohnP on March 1st, 2020, 12:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#33 Post by Glenn L e v i n e » March 1st, 2020, 12:35 pm

08 & 09 Escarpa have been very fine indeed lately.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#34 Post by Markus S » March 1st, 2020, 1:06 pm

Bdklein wrote:
February 29th, 2020, 9:20 pm
[I think the bottles were held long -IMO . I don’t think KB was designed/meant to be aged for 10+ years . Not saying it can’t hold up nor doesn’t need some time to come together-but the wine doesn’t need to aged .

Also , I find some people cellar Cali pinot too long ...
Hmmm...sounds simliar to German pinot noir [scratch.gif]
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#35 Post by Markus S » March 1st, 2020, 1:07 pm

GregT wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 10:52 am
7. At the end of the day, the unfortunate truth is that you're talking about Pinot Noir. Do yourself a favor and look around for some real wine.
Excellent! cheesehead
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#36 Post by Dennis Atick » March 1st, 2020, 1:34 pm

Since Tom's been mentioned in the thread, I'll just say that a 1988 Dehlinger Pinot Noir consumed last October was mind-boggling good. One of the top California pinots of the last few years for me, bested only by the 1991 Morgan Reserve (Dujac in disguise) and some late-90s Arcadians (surprise, surprise).
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#37 Post by GregT » March 1st, 2020, 5:24 pm

Markus, meet my friend Bruce! [pillow-fight.gif]
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#38 Post by RichardFlack » March 1st, 2020, 5:33 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 7:25 am
Some of old Caleras were able to age 30 years, particularly from the Jensen vineyard. A little hit and miss, but quite lovely if you found a good bottle.
What about recent Calera?
I have a couple of bottles in the “unsure” category at the moment.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#39 Post by Anton D » March 1st, 2020, 5:40 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 7:25 am
Some of old Caleras were able to age 30 years, particularly from the Jensen vineyard. A little hit and miss, but quite lovely if you found a good bottle.
One of the great agers!
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#40 Post by NoahR » March 1st, 2020, 5:48 pm

I don’t know about Dehlinger. I hated the KB’s I’ve had - sickly sweet, overripe and unbalanced, but YMMV. Older Kistlers I have had have been fairly good but mostly just well-preserves without anything interesting having happened over 15y or so.

Board darlings like Kutch and Rhys haven’t been around long enough to tell. Even Ceritas, honestly, doesn’t go back that far.

GC burgundy tended to be more tannic and rough in the days that it struggled to ripen. It is often reduced and nearly undrinkable early. But as it unfurls overtime, some incredible things can happen. I don’t know if those same tertiary things happen in US Pinot often before the tannins recede and the fruit takes on a softer, more stewy and treacly note and the whole thing just becomes sweet and soft and yech to my tastes.

But I can vouch for Old Calera, and Old Cameron and Old Eyrie and Burt-era Williams-Selyem. They have largely retained a sense of balance as they age, but I can’t tell you how they compared to 2000’s and 2010’s açaí pinots because climate and winemaking have changed so much.
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#41 Post by Paul H Galli » March 1st, 2020, 9:44 pm

Glenn L e v i n e wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 12:35 pm
08 & 09 Escarpa have been very fine indeed lately.
Agreed. The 2007 ain't too shabby either.
A real shame this vineyard had to be completely replanted.
Wonder when new vintages will be coming to market...

BTW, there's NOBODY who has clearly produced a pinot that can consistently age and improve more the Joe Davis!

TTT
Opinot, not Oporto...

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Howard Cooper
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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#42 Post by Howard Cooper » March 2nd, 2020, 5:36 am

Brady Daniels wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 10:37 am
CJ Beazley wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 10:11 am
Isn’t there a happy medium between truly making old bones and just looking for some tannin resolution and the wine knitting together?
I don’t know about a happy medium, but saying that a wine that lasts ten years qualifies as aging well surprises me. Not falling apart at ten years is surviving. IMHO, Aging well means a wine transforms into something very different, and to some palates - fantastic, over decades.

The wines from the ‘70’s above seem to qualify.

Nobody is amazed by mature burgundy because it survives or mellows, they are amazed because it transforms.
Agreed.
Howard

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#43 Post by Alex G » March 2nd, 2020, 5:45 am

Kevin Patrick wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 8:26 am
I found Kutch Pinot Noir to be wonderfully age-worthy wines. His entry level Sonoma Coast drinks wonderfully at 5+ years. His big boys (Falstaff and McDougal Ranch) can go 10 years easily.

I originally ear-marked 5 years as the time to begin popping the Kutch Pinots but after a couple dinners with 8-10+ year old Kutch, I really think that is when his bigger wines come into their own.

In a current thread there is a tasting note on a 7 year old McDougal where they found it young and strong but probably needing more years:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=167842
Agree completely on Kutch. Also, Ceritas, Rhys and Littorai...
Alex Gold

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#44 Post by Dave McIsaac » March 2nd, 2020, 5:45 am

Paul H Galli wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 9:44 pm

BTW, there's NOBODY who has clearly produced a pinot that can consistently age and improve more the Joe Davis!

TTT
This (Arcadian)
You're the man Dave! I think i speak for all of us when i say that..😎 - John Cabot, BDXI

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#45 Post by MitchTallan » March 2nd, 2020, 6:29 am

As I see things, the chickens have come back to roost.
I have been around on the wine boards since the Usenet days.
Usenet>West Coast Wine Network>ERobertParker>WB.
As I remember things, at some point in the early 90's things went from occasional posts about WS and Rochioli to a minor groundswell about Flowers.
Then came Siduri in '94 (though the talk started a few years later than that) and Merry Edwards ('97 but the talk started a few years later) and then all hell broke loose.
25 years on, a lot of regulars on EBob and this Board were mainly buying California pinot. I have no way to prove this; it is my perception based on posts.
So here we are in 2020. A lot of KB and similarly styled pinot is sitting around in cellars waiting to be declared DOA and sent on their trip to the local waste treatment plant.
I think of Mark B's thunder-toilet.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#46 Post by larry schaffer » March 2nd, 2020, 7:08 am

David P. wrote:
February 29th, 2020, 8:06 pm
Hi. I have been reading this forum for a while. A lot of times I see tasting notes of pinots from late 1990’s to early 2000’s and usually the descriptions are amazing saying that the wines are drinking late. I have started opening my wines recently from 2007-2009. These are high quality pinots like Kosta Browne, Dehlinger, etc... About 30% of the wine I ens up pouring down the sink, because it tastes so bad. I purchased the wine directly from the winery and it has been stored in offsite temp and humidity controlled storage. I just assumed that I held on to the bottles too long, but these great reviews of older bottles are confusing me.
David,

I think the first thing that has to be discussed is the term 'bad' here. What do you mean by this term? The wines were faulty? They were impossible to drink because they were offensive? They did not meet your expectations? They did not match tasting notes from these very same wines that you've seen recently here on this board or CT? Or they simply were not enjoyable based on your current palate?

For every 'bad' wine out there, there are tons who will find that same wine quite enjoyable. Therefore, I think in this case it's necessary to look at the language used to try to understand this concept better.

This has, as usual, become somewhat of a 'favorites' theme where those that have favorite producers who they believe make wines that are ageable versus others that are not. But I think the point here is that some wines will 'evolve' into something 'better', some will not change much and will therefore be a picture into how wines were made by that producer at that time, and some will falter and age quickly. Can we clearly categorize which producers fall into each category? No - but folks will try.

Perhaps you can come back and explain why these wines were 'bad' to you please . . .

Cheers.
larry schaffer
tercero wines

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#47 Post by Jay Miller » March 2nd, 2020, 8:25 am

Richard Albert wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 8:40 am
One I am not sure of and am very curious about is the 1968 BV "Special Burgundy", very shortly its destiny will be fulfilled.
Greg dal Piaz opened a Special Burgundy at a dinner 20 years ago which was very good. It was 50% petite sirah, 40% charbono, 5% early burgundy, 5% napa gamay.

I still wonder about the "early burgundy" grape.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#48 Post by John Webber » March 2nd, 2020, 12:57 pm

1999 Dehlinger was absolutely stunning last year. I had bottles that were dead previously, but boy did the one last year knock me for a loop. Delicious. I sourced all of my bottles from winebid 10+ years ago, so variance was expected. I just wasn't expecting any life left at this stage.

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#49 Post by David P. » March 2nd, 2020, 1:11 pm

Chris Johnson wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 6:36 am
Curious if you’re doing pop and pour or decanting? I’ve been buying some here and there at auction on the cheap (Martinelli, W-S, Olsen Ogden). Many of them are overly sweet and taste madeira-ized when they open. I dump them into the decanter and check back in 30-60 min and a good portion of them open up into something pleasant/interesting to drink. My favorite this year was a 2004 Brogan Summa, went through nearly a case of the OO’s from 2007 I bought for 5.50/bottle last year.
Pop and Pour. I thought the older wines become worse if decanted.
David Polushkin

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Re: Ageability of Cali Pinot

#50 Post by David P. » March 2nd, 2020, 1:14 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
March 2nd, 2020, 7:08 am
David P. wrote:
February 29th, 2020, 8:06 pm
Hi. I have been reading this forum for a while. A lot of times I see tasting notes of pinots from late 1990’s to early 2000’s and usually the descriptions are amazing saying that the wines are drinking late. I have started opening my wines recently from 2007-2009. These are high quality pinots like Kosta Browne, Dehlinger, etc... About 30% of the wine I ens up pouring down the sink, because it tastes so bad. I purchased the wine directly from the winery and it has been stored in offsite temp and humidity controlled storage. I just assumed that I held on to the bottles too long, but these great reviews of older bottles are confusing me.
David,

I think the first thing that has to be discussed is the term 'bad' here. What do you mean by this term? The wines were faulty? They were impossible to drink because they were offensive? They did not meet your expectations? They did not match tasting notes from these very same wines that you've seen recently here on this board or CT? Or they simply were not enjoyable based on your current palate?

For every 'bad' wine out there, there are tons who will find that same wine quite enjoyable. Therefore, I think in this case it's necessary to look at the language used to try to understand this concept better.

This has, as usual, become somewhat of a 'favorites' theme where those that have favorite producers who they believe make wines that are ageable versus others that are not. But I think the point here is that some wines will 'evolve' into something 'better', some will not change much and will therefore be a picture into how wines were made by that producer at that time, and some will falter and age quickly. Can we clearly categorize which producers fall into each category? No - but folks will try.

Perhaps you can come back and explain why these wines were 'bad' to you please . . .

Cheers.
Hi Larry. The wines tasted either like a sweet syrup or just very sour. Very different when compared the the same vintage when opened when they were younger.
David Polushkin

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