How do you reach the wine world everyone discusses?

Hi everyone. I’ve been a lurker on this terrific forum for some time ago, and finally summoned the guts to register. I would like to apologize in advance for the long post!

As a native of Portugal, and the son of a wine journalist who has passed on his passion to me, I’ve starting to get to know my country’s wine reasonably well. We’re a diverse producer nation for the geographic space we occupy, and Portuguese wine is mostly tailored to Portuguese wallets - which trail behind the rest of Europe (and certainly North America). In fact, this has been a much debated issue among our producers: how to shed the image of Portuguese wine as a mere budget friendly alternative among importers, given that we can never compete with the productive capacity of New World countries.

The consequence of this is that I am, in fact, almost wholly ignorant of the wine world. Portugal has roughly 250 native grape varieties, and the international varieties everyone knows - the very foundation of the wine industry - are the exception to the rule here. I’m glad it’s that way, because our varieties are our differentiating factor, but it also means that Pinot Noir and Malbec are merely things I’ve heard about, much as Encruzado or Alfrocheiro will be for the majority of foreign consumers.

I first dabbled into wine from other countries when I wanted to get my dad a Christmas gift that would actually surprise him. I decided to go for the most unorthodox possible place and came across a freaky (in a good way) warehouse/store/consulting company in Lisbon that only sells wine from small producers, Portuguese and foreign, mostly biodynamic and relatively affordable, in a quirky, fresh, anti-mainstream paradigm (no oaky fruit bombs, ever). I told the crew about my taste for old whites, which I share with dad (a 1984 Poço do Lobo was one of the best things I ever put my lips on, at Lisbon’s Belcanto restaurant) and, failing to produce something exactly in that register, they handed me a 2011 Loire Chenin Blanc and a Jura vin jaune (2012 by Jacques Puffeney to be more specific). I thought they were both gorgeous, and quite unlike anything I’d ever had. The vin jaune was the perfect fit for our ‘queijo da Serra’ cheese.

Not long after that particular Christmas, a family friend who lives in Firenze offered us a bottle of Barolo. I was absolutely blown away, and again, it’s because it didn’t taste quite like anything I’d ever had before. I then started going to that small warehouse more regularly. Knowing it’s probably a wine that will be more elegant than Barolo and not in need of quite as much cellar time, I got a 2013 Roagna Barbaresco from them, which is still stored away. I was also convinced into getting my first Garnacha and my first Alsatian Sylvaner, both still unopened. Lastly, I was at a Riesling vertical tasting in February, fascinated by how greenish and young a 2008 white could look, and again felt the doors of a different world left ajar.

You may have noticed that - guilty as charged - I have never, in my whole life, tasted a single wine from Bordeaux or Burgundy. As a classical musician, to me it sounds much like loving classical music and having never heard anything written by a German composer. Silly, at best! Reading just about any thread in this forum I feel like I’m trying to decipher a foreign language. I’ve heard of the legendary French wines which get 100 point ratings and sell for thousands, and recognize their names, but apart from those - which I’ll likely never taste - I have very little knowledge of what goes on beyond the border at Vilar Formoso. I still have a lot to discover in my own country - even the Wine Advocate’s Mark Squires has said he feels overwhelmed by the amount of producers, big and small, with quality projects over here - but I’d also like to get a proper wine education, and any proper education is diversified and well rounded.

So how should I go about doing it? The small warehouse I’ve been going to sells mostly stuff outside the mainstream (their most well represented Burgundy producer is a fellow with a wonderful moustache named Jean Claude Rateau), and although we have a few importers, such as Garrafeira Nacional, I have no idea how to exercise my judgement. Last but not least, there are the budget considerations: with the exception of the legendary Barca Velha and Pêra Manca brands, Portuguese top level wines never really go above 150€, and that is definitely not what happens with imported wine.

Thank you so much in advance!

Welcome, Tomas - this is probably better in Wine Talk so I’m gonna move it for you

Welcome Tomas! I’m a huge fan of Portuguese wines. I’ve a cellar full of wines I’ve been collecting for 40 or so years from all over the world, but in the past 5 years, have been concentrating on Portuguese wines. I love the Dao and Barrirada especially.
Back to your questions. I might concentrate on a few well known areas and wines. The Dao and Barriada are especially Burgundian, both red and white. Alentejo is much like the Rhone valley. German Rieslings don’t really have anything similar in Portugal. I might concentrate on that to be different. Alsace and Austrian Rieslings are also worth trying.
Welcome to a huge world of wine.

I don’t know what’s available to you as far as retail, and this may be cost-prohibitive, but - you’re two hours from France!

Might be worth it to save up and just do a wonderful trip to the regions that you’ve named to visit as many winemakers as you can manage. Doing that along with eating at lovely restaurants (that you’ve researched and figured out as far as wine lists, of course) in and around where you’re travelling sounds like it would be a pretty great way to immerse yourself in the wine world.

Hi Eric! Thanks for the warm welcome. The parallel you made between regions is very useful to me. Riesling is indeed a very different ball game from anything we have here. I got an Alsatian Riesling for my last sushi meal and it was a great fit, but nothing like the fine German ones I’d had before… it was all zest, sugary and acidic in an appropriately proportional way, but none of that refined perfume and layers of complexity. One of my dad’s colleagues from the magazine they work on happens to be a Riesling nerd… and he does a lot of importing in his wonderful winery and bar/restaurant in Lisbon, named Wines by Heart. Apart from Garrafeira Nacional, I’d probably rely on his business to get foreign wine.

The Alentejo is sometimes compared to Napa Valley as well. However there are plenty of examples of fine Alentejo wine which fall outside of the jammy, new oak stereotype - I’m a huge fan of the Fitapreta project, which is reviving old Alentejo grape varieties like Castelão. I know the Rhone was a favorite region of Parker’s, so how unreasonable is it to compare it to the (undoubtly unfair and generalizing) stereotype of ‘new world’ wine?

If you like Dão and Bairrada, Caves de São João has a huge collection of old wines (Poço do Lobo and Porta dos Cavaleiros) for sale at absurdly low prices, though I’m not sure if they sell abroad. The 1990s reds from Adega Cooperativa de Cantanhede are also in spectacular shape - Baga is a tough grape, and ages quite impressively. A 1997 Conde de Cantanhede 1.5L sells for like 30€ (!).

Hi Eric! Thanks for the warm welcome. The parallel you made between regions is very useful to me. Riesling is indeed a very different ball game from anything we have here. I got an Alsatian Riesling for my last sushi meal and it was a great fit, but nothing like the fine German ones I’d had before… it was all zest, sugary and acidic in an appropriately proportional way, but none of that refined perfume and layers of complexity. One of my dad’s colleagues from the magazine they work on happens to be a Riesling nerd… and he does a lot of importing in his wonderful winery and bar/restaurant in Lisbon, named Wines by Heart. Apart from Garrafeira Nacional, I’d probably rely on his business to get foreign wine.

The Alentejo is sometimes compared to Napa Valley as well. However there are plenty of examples of fine Alentejo wine which fall outside of the jammy, new oak stereotype - I’m a huge fan of the Fitapreta project, which is reviving old Alentejo grape varieties like Castelão. I know the Rhone was a favorite region of Parker’s, so how unreasonable is it to compare it to the (undoubtly unfair and generalizing) stereotype of ‘new world’ wine?

If you like Dão and Bairrada, Caves de São João has a huge collection of old wines (Poço do Lobo and Porta dos Cavaleiros) for sale at absurdly low prices, though I’m not sure if they sell abroad. The 1990s reds from Adega Cooperativa de Cantanhede are also in spectacular shape - Baga is a tough grape, and ages quite impressively. A 1997 Conde de Cantanhede 1.5L sells for like 30€ (!).


It’s a terrific idea which I’ve pondered before, and it has two limitations - my budget, and my tremendous distaste for driving. But there must be a way around it… the post-COVID-19 world remains unpredictable, and who knows whether these adventures might become more affordable or more expensive, easier or more difficult. It will also depend somewhat on the fate of airline companies, especially low cost ones.

Hi Tomas and welcome. Sounds like you have a great adventure in front of you.

You’re close to Spain and they have very diverse wines over there. That might be an easy trip by train? And if you develop some friendships there, that can lead to more.

You can trade wine with people too. Many people are curious about Portuguese wines but don’t have access. It’s worth looking around online for people who may be in your area or not too far.

And you’re not out of the wine world. Portugal is right in it. It’s just that in the US the wines aren’t as known as those from France. Actually, even French wines aren’t all known. Bordeaux and Burgundy and the Rhone are the popular ones, but a lot of people here aren’t drinking much wine from Alsace, Jura, and Marcillac.

Stick around and tell us about your wines. [cheers.gif]

Tomas – I think you’re doing all the right things, and it sounds like this warehouse/store is giving you great advice. Presumably your father can help, too. If you can find some other people to explore new wines with, that’s the best thing. If you can find some people who know more than you do, that would be even better. I think older, more experienced wine lovers will appreciate your curiosity and your openness, and would welcome your company.

Please report back here when you’ve tried some more wines. It was fascinating to read your notes!

Tomás, since you live in the EU, probably the best way to proceed is to start buying stuff from internet shops. The prices are often very reasonable compared to imported wines and buying 12-18 bottles at a time keeps the delivery costs per bottle pretty low.

Do you have know any local people who share the passion and would be willing to participate in tastings where you’d share a bunch of wines and their costs?

Exactly. I order from all over the EU. Delivery typically €15 for 12-18 bottles.

Hi Tomás!

I asked myself the same question when I started to explore the wine world more seriously. I live in Australia and the big, classic Old World household names are very expensive and buying bottles is prohibitive. The best way I found is to go to wine tastings. Try to find an independent bottle-shop that offers cheap tastings on a theme, or alternatively see if with your father you’re able to attend some tastings for those in the trade business. The one you mentioned seems very good, and it doesn’t matter too much if they only import lesser-known artisan producers - it might be better since you can relate to them on a more personal level instead of just seeing some number or blown-up story on some wine magazine or forum.

That is probably the most cost & time-effective way of doing things. Since participating in wine tastings at a local bottle-shop I was able to taste Italian, Californian, German, New Zealand, French wine. Hope you can find something suitable. From then on, it’s just a matter of patience - I really want to get in Burgundy too, for example, and a tasting I was really hyped for got cancelled because of the COVID-19…

Here a few tips from my side (many of them have been mentioned before).

  1. Do a lot of research. There are great books, magazines, blogs, forums with a lot of knowledge. Read what the critics write about the new vintages (Vinous, Wine Advocate, Burghound). This gives you a better overview on the most important grapes, regions, styles and vintages and what fine wine is all about.

  2. Start collecting and diving into the different regions. Portugal might have a shortage of suppliers but through www.wine-searcher.com you’ll find plenty of EU delivery merchants. A few suggestions for how to do that:

a) Identify the regions you wanna dive in (I would focus on the top 10 most prestigious one first. For reds: Bordeaux, Burgundy, Northern Rhone, Piedmont, Napa Valley,Tuscany, Southern Rhone, Rioja, Australia. For whites: Burgundy, Germany, Champagne)

b) Do a lot of research before you buy wines. Usually one critics opinion is not enough to make an informed decision unless you follow the critic for years and you have similar preferences. But a wine that has a high rating from several critics, seems to be something special and representative of the region/grape and is probably worth trying to learn more about the wine/region/grape.

c) Don’t buy too much wine at once. The more you dive into fine wine, the more your understanding will grow and your preferences will change. That doesn’t have to take years and decades. That can go quite quick. So I wouldn’t buy 100 bottles of Chateauneuf du Pape only to find out 3 years later that these wines are all too ripe and have too much alcohol. But buying a few bottles of a few different producers by region to follow them over the next years helps .

=> If you are on a budget, these regions offer high quality grapes/regions for comparably low prices: Rieslings (Germany/Austria), Sangiovese (Tuscany), Chateuneuf-du-Pape, Rioja, to some extent Syrah (Northern Rhone). For the main regions like Bordeaux, Burgundy, Piedmont focus on the very good to excellent vintages to buy some lower tier wines.

  1. Drink a lot of wine. And not only try to drink and enjoy it but also to connect it to everything you learned about the regions, grapes, wines, vintages, producers and to all the wines you had before. The best learning effect (which ultimately increases the joy and drinking pleasure) is to take notes on all the wines (I would use cellartracker.com for your personal wine journal). I would also score the wines (that’s a way to force yourself to compare it to everything you had before, to properly analyse the wines you have and to hence learn more about wine).

  2. Connect yourself to other wine lovers in your region. There will be clubs, tastings, verticals etc. Not only is it fun but it also broadens your horizon. And usually there is also one or the other friend with a much deeper cellar which loves to share some wines you don’t have in your cellar. I would also go to wine fairs, trade shows, tastings organized by wine shops and producers. Focus on fine wine shops/tastings.

  3. Travel to the wine regions (but only until you already now something about the wines, producers of that region).

Hi Tomás - Welcome! You will find lots of musicians, classical and other, who are interested in wine. I think I know the wine store you are talking about, in fact, Ed Motta the Brazilian musician told me about it. Knowing what they have in that shop, I would also suggest you explore Beaujolais.

it sounds like your warehouse hasn’t steered you wrong yet. I would keep going with them at least until you run out of options there! sounds like a great place to me. that way you can at least get a sense of what some of these regions are like and where you might want to focus some time for a deeper dive. it sounds like their stock may be a little less mainstream, but even with non-traditional types of producers you can still get a feel for how wines made from Nebbiolo might be different than the ones made from cabernet, or the difference between wines from Germany and wines from Australia. and if its local and you have a relationship and don’t have to drive, all the better!

oftentimes, a larger city will have a larger wine scene, too. I’m not sure what other large cities you’re close to, but getting there could help. you mentioned not wanting to drive, but what about a train trip? hopping on a train to Madrid will really open up your wine world for a couple days.

For threads to help you learn, try

TN: 2001 Joh. Jos. Prüm Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers [I know this is a good recent thread on German wines but think there are probably better threads for learning about German wines. Can anyone think of any?]

Welcome, Tomás! You’ve got some good advice here already, even if some of it might be more narrowly focused than you’d like. For instance, I like the idea of starting with the classics, but I have no idea why that list has only 2 categories for white wines. That seems crazy to me. And what about sparkling?

Anyway, to add to what’s been said, what I tell anyone with this question is to get a good, introductory wine book like The Wine Bible by Karen MacNeil (be sure to get the recent edition; it’s still not perfect, but nothing is, and starting with the Oxford Companion could be daunting, even if it is the most authoritative resource). Drink wines from the areas you’re reading about. Explore the world that way. While doing that, stick with your local merchant because they sound like a good one. Take their advice and listen to what they tell you about the wines, then go home and read more while you drink them. For categories or benchmark producers that they don’t have, order from other stores within the EU. You’ll do fine. Wine and music have many parallels. One that I often mention is that as we learn more, we find greater enjoyment.

Have fun!

Welcome to the fabulous, exasperating and expensive hobby.


I am actually a little bit envious as you start your journey.

In more ways than one…

I’m not so sure the Portuguese wine lover is a poor sod: Quinta do Vale Meao sells for around $100US, and there are many others that sell for $30-50 here in the US. Like Eric, I love the wines as well but doubt my 1-2 cases of them are a match for his cellar.

Really not sure what sells there but German & Austrian rieslings, nebbiolo-based wines from Italy, Etna wines, Loire cab francs would give you something different from what you have there.

Good luck, and let us know what you try!

One other thing that I think is worth mentioning, even though you might know already. This board is an incredible resource. The collective knowledge here is truly awesome. One of the best things for someone starting out is that many top producers from many regions are discussed here. If you want to know whose wines you should try from a given appellation or grape, read through the posts here. Yes, some people drink a lot of very expensive wine, but many of us drink a lot of wines that most people in the hobby can afford and have spent lots and lots of time finding our favorite examples. Still, it’s the internet, so don’t assume someone knows what they’re talking about just because they think they do (including me).