I’ve come to some extremely rough conclusions. Your mileage will certainly vary and I’d like to hear about it.
Basic Bordeaux: <10 years
Bordeaux Cotes, entry level Medocs and entry-level Libourne Appellations: 10 - 20 years
Entry to mid level Medoc GCCs, mid-level to top Crus Bourgeois and mid-level to top Libourne Appellations: 20 - 30 years
Mid to top level Medoc GCCs, and top Libournes, short of 1st Growths: 30 - 40 years
1st Growths: 30 - 60 years.
Entry level California Cabs: <10 years
Entry level Napa and entry to mid-level Sonoma Cabs, and mid-level Cabs from other places in CA, except Mountain Cabs: 10 - 20 years
Mid to top level Napa and top level Sonoma Cabs, and entry-level Mountain Cabs: 20 - 30 years
Very top level Napa cabs and Mountain Cabs: 30 - 40 years.
I know there are California Cabs that will improve beyond 40 years, but I’ve found them to be rare.
The problem is coming up with a common understanding of what “top-level” Napa cabs are. A number of what many people consider “top-level” cabs are made to be drunk young. If by “top-level,” you mean, “meant to be aged,” you are begging the question.
The California ratings seem pretty correct based on what I have had over the last several years.
I have not had any California Cabernet that I can remember over 40 years old but have had a number that were really good between 30 and 40 years old including 1974 Sterling and 1978 Chateau Montelena Sonoma.
I can think of 20 year old California Cabernet that were very much too young like 1994 Dominus (drunk at about 20 years old or a bit more) and 1997 Togni (drunk a year or two ago). A 1999 Ridge Monte Bello was almost but not quite mature last year while a 1993 was pretty much spot on and a 2009 was way too young when drunk at the same time. I think of these are 30-40 year wines for peak maturity although I would not be surprised if they last longer than 40 years.
My guess however, is that there are a relative handful of California Cabs that do well this long. Others would include Dunn, Mayacamas, Mount Eden, Forman (he made the 1974 Sterling after all) and older Mondavi Reserves. I am sure there are others, but these are the ones I know. I will be interested in how long the Stony Hill Cabs live (I think they started making these in 2007 or so) given their history with long lived Chardonnays.
With respect to Bordeaux, the times may be a bit too long for all but the best Bordeaux. I will commit heresy and say that a lot of 1982 Bordeaux were better 5-10 years ago than they are today. Certainly this does not include the top ones like Mouton or LLC, but it certainly does include wines like Cos D’Estournal. By contrast, a number of 1970s have lived longer than I would have expected - for example, I thought a 1970 Lynch Bages that I had a couple of years ago was better than a 1982 drunk the same night. My guess is that wines from a few top vintages like 2005 and 2016 will live a long time, but I am not sure this will apply to 2009s esp. from Rolland.
Even though I have little experience with 20+ year old wines this looks about right to me. For my tastes the drinking windows for most wines is understated.
Agree on the Bordeaux timing. But with most modern styled “over the top” Napa Cabs, not sure they will last that long or even show that much positive development. On the other hand, producers going with a more restrained style will likely go much longer.
I like 10+ on everything CA cab. Entry level are obviously made to drink younger but there are some that just aren’t ready yet for my tastes. Mid to upper are easy 10-20 years and then the top level cabs are definitely 20+. I had an 82’ Spottswoode last year and it was still showing some muscle. I opened an 83’ Martha’s Vineyard last year in March and it still tasted young and needed time to open up. The question is when do you open these bottles to enjoy v trying to hit a specific time frame.
I don’t have enough experience with BDX except to know there’s a lot of really well made, ageable wines out there.
Almost zero experience with aged Napa, so no comment, but I’m onboard with your thoughts on Brdx. Most appears to be consumed far too young. There’s a reason that I haven’t purchased any since the '05’s and I’m 50 now.
Appreciate your posts Dan.
Would be interested in similar thoughts on Roussillon wines given your experience.
In terms of not buying any Bordeaux since 05, because you’re 50 now, o.k. i respect that, but i do not understand. Unless you won’t depart from corona, you will live aprox 30+ years from now on.
A lot of vintages since 05 are perfect now, a few are predicted to ripen for 20+ years maybe. So what. Enjoy, as long you’re able to.
These are hard numbers for wine I purchase and consume at home. Greedy matching in term of years.
CA cab
$40+ 0 - 10 years.
$80+ 3 - 15 years.
Bdx
$50+ 0-10 years
$100+ 4-15 years
$150+ 4-20 years
I had plenty of old Napa wines, 80s, 90s, early 2000s in the past few years and did not think any of them were that great. A few were interesting, but not my style and not something I would pay to drink.
I have less experience with older Bdx. The oldest was 15 years old. I suppose they can be aged longer, but not sure if that is something I would even like.
If you look at high end restaurant wine list, most Napa and bdx are in the 5-10 years range. Rarely do you see older.
I feel this is a tad conservative; I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the % of '70s non-1st growth Bordeaux I’ve had that were nowhere near tired. Would suggest widening the range to something like 30-50
I should have included in my OP that this is based on average to great vintages, not below-average to poor vintages.
A Roussillon vintage chart is really hard… are you talking about vineyards at sea level or over 2000 feet? But here’s my take. As when I rated 33 vintages of Domaine du Pegau, I’m ranking the vintages from 1 - 10, with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best. I’m going to try real hard to make an average of 5.5, because that’s what average means.
Caveats:
I bought my vineyard in 2007 and am starting there. I have Roussillon experience going back to the 1990 vintage, but until the early 2000s, it was mostly with one single producer. By 2007, I not only had my own wine, I was visiting and tasting at up to a dozen producers a year and also tasting multiple wines whose growers I did not visit. Even stating that, I feel less confident in these rankings than in my previous ranking of 33 vintages of Pegau.
2007 - 9
2008 - 9
2009 - 6
2010 - 1
2011 - 5
2012 - 8
2013 - 10
2014 - 3
2015 - 7
2016 - 4
2017 - 6
2018 - 2
2019 - ??? I was supposed to go to Roussillon in March, for some reason didn’t quite get there. Hope to return in September, but can’t yet plan for that.
Thanks Dan. I appreciate your thoughts. I was more interested in general drinking windows, more so than vintage ratings.
I have been buying a few CdRoussillon villages producers since the mid '00’s after atending a trade tasting in the early '00’s and a few caught my attention as being really remarkable from a mineral (schist) point of view.
They continue to drink well and I’ve sort of assumed a similar timeline to good CNdP, as it’s near enough and often Grenache heavy blends, but they’re also more mineral and dense and for me, can hide high alcohol vintages a bit better.
Not Dan, but I have found, in general, Grenache from Roussillon doesn’t age as well as CdP due to lower natural acidity, and frankly a different tannic structure. This is only thru about 2010 for me, so it comes with a grain of salt. I have found the Syrah based wines have better longevity in L-R than Grenache, but YMMV.
Interesting theory but way too generic IMO. There are first growth Bordeaux that drink beautifully at 15 years (2000 Cheval Blanc) and others that are still tough as nails at almost 40 (1982 Haut Brion).
I totally agree with this. I’m 58 and I don’t buy as much Bordeaux as I used to, but I determined my few favorite Chateaux that I could afford and I’ve bought quite a few vintages past 2005, up to 2018 in one case.
If I end up with some wine I can’t enjoy for some reason, I don’t expect it will be on my short list of regrets.
LOL, this reminded me of one of my biggest wine buying regrets: Sometime in the early 1990’s, Big Y in MA sold 1982 Haut Brion for $80. I couldn’t afford it but I told my dad he should buy some. When I was talking to him a few months later he admitted that he called them, but too late.
Dad didn’t make all the wrong decisions. We drank a 1990 Latour from his cellar with Alex MacDonald last year, with the 2017 MacDonald. Both wines are crazy good.