de Negoce offer

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larry schaffer
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3151 Post by larry schaffer » September 1st, 2020, 7:27 am

Troy Stark wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:52 am
Richard Jen wrote:
August 31st, 2020, 8:53 pm
Michael,

I just don’t know enough and was hoping someone would ask the question. Does the final blended wine see barrel again? I assume not, that’s why i think most of them are not the same wine. Of course, if barrel doesn’t really mean barrel that’s a different story.
After blending, the wine is almost never returned to barrel. Doing so would destroy the blend, since each barrel ages differently. Here's how it works in the winery for most red wines;

1. Fruit comes in from harvest and is sorted before heading to the crusher/destemmer (sometimes stems are left intact depending on the variety/wine)
2. Crushed fruit goes into fermentation tanks (optional step here is a cold soak)
3. Yeast is added, or not, and fermentation begins
4. While the wine is fermenting, cap created by the grape skins is either punched down or wine is pumped over. There are a couple other ways you can manage the cap here, but these are the two most common. This is when the wine picks up color/tannin from the skins.
5. Once fermentation is complete (call it two weeks, give or take, depending on conditions) or nearly complete, the must is pressed into a tank to separate the wine from the grape skins
6. Heavy lees settle out of the wine while it rests in tank for a bit and fermentation completes if it wasn't finished
7. At this point, the wine is "barreled down", i.e. placed into barrel, for aging. Malo takes place, or not, depending on the winemaker's preferences.
8. During barrel aging, the wines are periodically sampled to see how they are doing. Sulfur is added, if necessary. Sometimes the fine lees are stirred. Sometimes the wine is racked off the fine lees into a new barrel.
9. At some point, the decision will be made that barrel time should be halted and the wine should be blended for bottling. At this point, the winemaker(s) will sample all of the barrels and come up with the final blend for the wine.
10. The selected barrels are put into a single tank and the wine is bottled.

At this point excess wine from the "bottle blend" can be bulked out if there is too much of it. That said, typically the winery is only going to put into the "bottling blend" the amount they need, so it's not typical to have a ton of extra final blend, though a few hundred cases would not be out of the question for a larger production or a bountiful harvest. Also at this point, the "extra barrels" that didn't make the cut can be mixed with the remaining bottle blend or a completely separate blend of remaining barrels can be created. It's all up to the winery at this point how they want to deal with the extra wine and what relation it may or may not have to the winery's final bottling blend, though I think more often than not, the bulk wine is probably different, though similar, to the winery's final blend. In short, if Cam doesn't say "this is the winery's bottling blend," it's probably a little different.

Hope this helps.
Not necessarily true. Historically in Bordeaux, blends are determined early on and the wines are combined at that stage to better 'marry' them...

Cheers.
larry schaffer
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3152 Post by larry schaffer » September 1st, 2020, 7:28 am

MatthewT wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:55 am
Mike R wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:37 am
Did Matthew T get banned or something? This is the longest I have seen this thread without a post from him.
Not banned, just no interest in posting anymore. One guy questioned how I am as a father, another told a ridiculous story about his friend and how after she got therapy she was a better person.

I have better things to do with my time. I'll continue to read and post when I think I have something to add.
Sounds about right [swoon.gif]

Hang in there, my friend.

Cheers.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3153 Post by Troy Stark » September 1st, 2020, 7:33 am

larry schaffer wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:27 am
Troy Stark wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:52 am
Richard Jen wrote:
August 31st, 2020, 8:53 pm
Michael,

I just don’t know enough and was hoping someone would ask the question. Does the final blended wine see barrel again? I assume not, that’s why i think most of them are not the same wine. Of course, if barrel doesn’t really mean barrel that’s a different story.
After blending, the wine is almost never returned to barrel. Doing so would destroy the blend, since each barrel ages differently. Here's how it works in the winery for most red wines;

1. Fruit comes in from harvest and is sorted before heading to the crusher/destemmer (sometimes stems are left intact depending on the variety/wine)
2. Crushed fruit goes into fermentation tanks (optional step here is a cold soak)
3. Yeast is added, or not, and fermentation begins
4. While the wine is fermenting, cap created by the grape skins is either punched down or wine is pumped over. There are a couple other ways you can manage the cap here, but these are the two most common. This is when the wine picks up color/tannin from the skins.
5. Once fermentation is complete (call it two weeks, give or take, depending on conditions) or nearly complete, the must is pressed into a tank to separate the wine from the grape skins
6. Heavy lees settle out of the wine while it rests in tank for a bit and fermentation completes if it wasn't finished
7. At this point, the wine is "barreled down", i.e. placed into barrel, for aging. Malo takes place, or not, depending on the winemaker's preferences.
8. During barrel aging, the wines are periodically sampled to see how they are doing. Sulfur is added, if necessary. Sometimes the fine lees are stirred. Sometimes the wine is racked off the fine lees into a new barrel.
9. At some point, the decision will be made that barrel time should be halted and the wine should be blended for bottling. At this point, the winemaker(s) will sample all of the barrels and come up with the final blend for the wine.
10. The selected barrels are put into a single tank and the wine is bottled.

At this point excess wine from the "bottle blend" can be bulked out if there is too much of it. That said, typically the winery is only going to put into the "bottling blend" the amount they need, so it's not typical to have a ton of extra final blend, though a few hundred cases would not be out of the question for a larger production or a bountiful harvest. Also at this point, the "extra barrels" that didn't make the cut can be mixed with the remaining bottle blend or a completely separate blend of remaining barrels can be created. It's all up to the winery at this point how they want to deal with the extra wine and what relation it may or may not have to the winery's final bottling blend, though I think more often than not, the bulk wine is probably different, though similar, to the winery's final blend. In short, if Cam doesn't say "this is the winery's bottling blend," it's probably a little different.

Hope this helps.
Not necessarily true. Historically in Bordeaux, blends are determined early on and the wines are combined at that stage to better 'marry' them...

Cheers.
You're talking about the blend of the grape varieties, not the blend of the barrels. You're right that this usually takes place after primary fermentation and before barreling down, for wines that are not single varietal. That said, even in Bordeaux, there is still barrel sampling that takes place prior to the creation of the final bottling blend. The barrels that don't make the final bottle blend for the Grand Vin go into the chateau's second and possibly third labels.

I guess I was trying to keep it simple.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3154 Post by DanielP » September 1st, 2020, 7:36 am

larry schaffer wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:27 am
Historically in Bordeaux, blends are determined early on and the wines are combined at that stage to better 'marry' them...

Cheers.
Is that true? The blends can actually change from what's shown at EP, which I believe are more representative of the likely future blend than the actual blend itself. I could be wrong, but I didn't think they actually blended their entire grand vin production until closer to the actual bottling
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3155 Post by Michael Martin » September 1st, 2020, 7:37 am

Mike R wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:09 am
MatthewT wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:55 am
Mike R wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:37 am
Did Matthew T get banned or something? This is the longest I have seen this thread without a post from him.
Not banned, just no interest in posting anymore. One guy questioned how I am as a father, another told a ridiculous story about his friend and how after she got therapy she was a better person.

I have better things to do with my time. I'll continue to read and post when I think I have something to add.
Sorry to hear that. I think we'll all be better off if we stick to the discussion of the wines and avoid personal commentary.
The thread has taken on a different tone...back to discussing the wine. [cheers.gif]
Last edited by Michael Martin on September 2nd, 2020, 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3156 Post by Jonah P » September 1st, 2020, 8:03 am

FWIW the total disaster for the 2020 crop seems to have been avoided. I'm pretty confident there will be plenty of very good CA wine grapes this year.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3157 Post by Ian S » September 1st, 2020, 8:09 am

MatthewT wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:55 am
Mike R wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:37 am
Did Matthew T get banned or something?
Not banned, just no interest in posting anymore.
If you do that, the troll wins. Keep on fighting the good fight mate!

(It is, after all, an internet forum which exists for amusement.)
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3158 Post by Vince L. » September 1st, 2020, 8:38 am

Jay $$ Winton wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:48 am
I'm getting mixed signals on my 40 order. I ordered, charge authorized and I got an order number. Now I'm being told I'm on the waiting list? Trying to sort this out with "Support Staff".
This is interesting. Maybe that's what explains why someone speculated there was more order numbers than available cases
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3159 Post by J. Patrick Lynch » September 1st, 2020, 8:46 am

Vince L. wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 8:38 am
Jay $$ Winton wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:48 am
I'm getting mixed signals on my 40 order. I ordered, charge authorized and I got an order number. Now I'm being told I'm on the waiting list? Trying to sort this out with "Support Staff".
This is interesting. Maybe that's what explains why someone speculated there was more order numbers than available cases
Could have an option to buy more?
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3160 Post by Jay $$ Winton » September 1st, 2020, 10:33 am

J. Patrick Lynch wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 8:46 am
Vince L. wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 8:38 am
Jay $$ Winton wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:48 am
I'm getting mixed signals on my 40 order. I ordered, charge authorized and I got an order number. Now I'm being told I'm on the waiting list? Trying to sort this out with "Support Staff".
This is interesting. Maybe that's what explains why someone speculated there was more order numbers than available cases
Could have an option to buy more?
Mo order was confirmed so all good
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3161 Post by Robert M yers » September 1st, 2020, 12:47 pm

Ian S wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 8:09 am
MatthewT wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:55 am
Mike R wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:37 am
Did Matthew T get banned or something?
Not banned, just no interest in posting anymore.
If you do that, the troll wins. Keep on fighting the good fight mate!

(It is, after all, an internet forum which exists for amusement.)
That’s weird though, notice how it’s back to civility now that he’s not trolling people with the “hater” Label who are here for further discussion.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3162 Post by David Buck » September 1st, 2020, 1:12 pm

Real interesting info Troy. Thanks. Funny got email from Zeitgist this morning just as board was discussing it....They tell you exactly what they do...Guess from this we should leave our DN Cab in bottle for a year or 9 months. both these 150 a bottle releasing today:

2017 Sleeping Lady Vineyard Cabernet Franc Napa Valley
52 Cases Total Production
96% Cabernet Franc
4% Cabernet Sauvignon
100% Sleeping Lady Vineyard
Harvested October 3rd, 2017
Bottled August 30th, 2019
Barrel Aged 22 months
Bottle Aged 12 months

2017 Sleeping Lady Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon Napa Valley
110 Cases Total Production
99% Cabernet Sauvignon
1% Cabernet Franc
100% Sleeping Lady Vineyard
Harvested October 6th, 2017
Bottled January 23rd, 2020
Barrel Aged 27 months
Bottle Aged 9 months

The 2017 Sleeping Lady Cabernet Sauvignon, the wine you are most familiar with from Sleeping Lady Vineyard, was held in barrel an extra 4 months and bottled early this year. This extra barrel aging, a total of 27 months, allowed the wine to reach its highest potential. It is already a wine packed with layers of complexity; classic, sexy and exploding with fruit, this wine is a joy to drink.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3163 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s » September 1st, 2020, 1:27 pm

Robert M yers wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 12:47 pm
Ian S wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 8:09 am
MatthewT wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:55 am


Not banned, just no interest in posting anymore.
If you do that, the troll wins. Keep on fighting the good fight mate!

(It is, after all, an internet forum which exists for amusement.)
That’s weird though, notice how it’s back to civility now that he’s not trolling people with the “hater” Label who are here for further discussion.
Robert,
Enough of who is trolling whom. Let's stay on topic(s). [cheers.gif]
Cheers,
Paul

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3164 Post by Robert M yers » September 1st, 2020, 1:33 pm

[cheers.gif] I agree. I’ve been out for a week or more...tell Ian to quit trolling me via proxy. It’s just so hard to let inaccuracies lie [rofl.gif]
Last edited by Robert M yers on September 1st, 2020, 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3165 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s » September 1st, 2020, 1:36 pm

Ian loves to troll! I seem to recall him making a new year's prediction that he would get kicked off WB this year. Tongue in cheek (I think.)
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3166 Post by Chr!s G|@rn3r » September 1st, 2020, 1:40 pm

Constant cabernet sauv in 2016 is all french oak, 80% new, for 22 months, $185 list. So that all lines up to fit the DN offer, except for the 50% new oak for DN which doesn’t necessarily mean it is a different blend, just not as much new oak as the standard winery release which is bot surprising, and no issue here.

Also, they are not releasing a 2017 CS due to the fires, so that is why it hasn’t been released.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3167 Post by tpetty » September 1st, 2020, 2:55 pm

How do you know what offerings are upcoming? How do you know that #48 is a pinot? (Or is this just a guess/example) Is there a master list somewhere available?
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3168 Post by J. Patrick Lynch » September 1st, 2020, 3:03 pm

tpetty wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 2:55 pm
How do you know what offerings are upcoming? How do you know that #48 is a pinot? (Or is this just a guess/example) Is there a master list somewhere available?
41 - Cab
42 - Cab
43 - Cab
44 - Cab
45 - Merlot
46 - Cab
47 - Cab
48 - Pinot
51 - Cab Franc
52 - Cab Franc
53 - Merlot
54 - Cab
62 - Chard

dN has to register their labels ahead of time.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3169 Post by tpetty » September 1st, 2020, 3:07 pm

huh. I like cabs & merlot, and have already ordered 15, 17, 40 in the last week. Guess I need to start getting more selective.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3170 Post by Richard Jen » September 1st, 2020, 3:29 pm

Troy Stark wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:33 am
larry schaffer wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:27 am
Troy Stark wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:52 am


After blending, the wine is almost never returned to barrel. Doing so would destroy the blend, since each barrel ages differently. Here's how it works in the winery for most red wines;

1. Fruit comes in from harvest and is sorted before heading to the crusher/destemmer (sometimes stems are left intact depending on the variety/wine)
2. Crushed fruit goes into fermentation tanks (optional step here is a cold soak)
3. Yeast is added, or not, and fermentation begins
4. While the wine is fermenting, cap created by the grape skins is either punched down or wine is pumped over. There are a couple other ways you can manage the cap here, but these are the two most common. This is when the wine picks up color/tannin from the skins.
5. Once fermentation is complete (call it two weeks, give or take, depending on conditions) or nearly complete, the must is pressed into a tank to separate the wine from the grape skins
6. Heavy lees settle out of the wine while it rests in tank for a bit and fermentation completes if it wasn't finished
7. At this point, the wine is "barreled down", i.e. placed into barrel, for aging. Malo takes place, or not, depending on the winemaker's preferences.
8. During barrel aging, the wines are periodically sampled to see how they are doing. Sulfur is added, if necessary. Sometimes the fine lees are stirred. Sometimes the wine is racked off the fine lees into a new barrel.
9. At some point, the decision will be made that barrel time should be halted and the wine should be blended for bottling. At this point, the winemaker(s) will sample all of the barrels and come up with the final blend for the wine.
10. The selected barrels are put into a single tank and the wine is bottled.

At this point excess wine from the "bottle blend" can be bulked out if there is too much of it. That said, typically the winery is only going to put into the "bottling blend" the amount they need, so it's not typical to have a ton of extra final blend, though a few hundred cases would not be out of the question for a larger production or a bountiful harvest. Also at this point, the "extra barrels" that didn't make the cut can be mixed with the remaining bottle blend or a completely separate blend of remaining barrels can be created. It's all up to the winery at this point how they want to deal with the extra wine and what relation it may or may not have to the winery's final bottling blend, though I think more often than not, the bulk wine is probably different, though similar, to the winery's final blend. In short, if Cam doesn't say "this is the winery's bottling blend," it's probably a little different.

Hope this helps.
Not necessarily true. Historically in Bordeaux, blends are determined early on and the wines are combined at that stage to better 'marry' them...

Cheers.
You're talking about the blend of the grape varieties, not the blend of the barrels. You're right that this usually takes place after primary fermentation and before barreling down, for wines that are not single varietal. That said, even in Bordeaux, there is still barrel sampling that takes place prior to the creation of the final bottling blend. The barrels that don't make the final bottle blend for the Grand Vin go into the chateau's second and possibly third labels.

I guess I was trying to keep it simple.
Thank you, Troy and Larry. This helps a lot.

If the wine is from the bottling blend, oak treatment should be exactly the same as they share the same barrel mix?
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3171 Post by Troy Stark » September 1st, 2020, 3:34 pm

That's right. And if it has a different oak treatment specified that's a good hint it's not the same as the bottling blend.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3172 Post by Chris Seiber » September 1st, 2020, 3:52 pm

De Negoce,
De Negoce se visten los campos en la primavera.

De Negoce,
De Negoce son los pajaritos que vienen de afuera.

De Negoce,
De Negoce es el arco iris que vemos lucir.

Y por eso los grandes amores de muchos colores
Me gustan a mí.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3173 Post by Chip Louie » September 1st, 2020, 7:25 pm

I am wondering if others are using specific wine glasses to tasting. I thought is was B.S. but after trying the Reidel Performance series glasses I became a believer.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3174 Post by HoosJustinG » September 1st, 2020, 7:26 pm

Bring back MatthewT!
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3175 Post by Jonah P » September 1st, 2020, 7:35 pm

Chip Louie wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:25 pm
I am wondering if others are using specific wine glasses to tasting. I thought is was B.S. but after trying the Reidel Performance series glasses I became a believer.
I'm a big fan of gabriel glas (or zalto) universal glasses. Of course I have all shapes of Riedel, but I use those for almost everything except PN and then I use the big Riedel somm fish tanks. I do like the Riedel syrah glasses also. If the two I mentioned are too steep, Grassl makes a good universal glass as well for a bit less. Good guy selling them too. While I'm making shameless plugs for products I have no affiliation with (it's like there's a void here), repour makes an excellent wine preserver at a great price. I'm only saying that because it's also owned by a great guy, who I met on WB and I know coravin struggles with artificial corks (maybe only the super plastic ones?). I know I may want to have a bunch of these wines open for comparison. Repour was made for that. I'm sure they'll be running a special soon. Tom, if you're out there, we need a special Christmas in October sale when all these bottles land.
Last edited by Jonah P on September 1st, 2020, 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3176 Post by Ian S » September 1st, 2020, 7:38 pm

HoosJustinG wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:26 pm
Bring back MatthewT!
He hasn't been banned unless something changed from this morning.
MatthewT wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:55 am
Mike R wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 6:37 am
Did Matthew T get banned or something?
Not banned, just no interest in posting anymore.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3177 Post by Jonah P » September 1st, 2020, 7:38 pm

Doesn't anyone else find it strange that OG 40 sells out in 20 minutes and not one of the five re-releases have sold out in over four days? I get that they don't have the same hype, but there are a lot of new customers. At least one of them should be gone by now.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3178 Post by Ian S » September 1st, 2020, 7:43 pm

Jonah P wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:38 pm
Doesn't anyone else find it strange that OG 40 sells out in 20 minutes and not one of the five re-releases have sold out in over four days?
Not one bit, mate. Manchester U tickets sell out in a flash. Ipswich? Not so much.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3179 Post by HoosJustinG » September 1st, 2020, 7:45 pm

Ian S wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:43 pm
Jonah P wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:38 pm
Doesn't anyone else find it strange that OG 40 sells out in 20 minutes and not one of the five re-releases have sold out in over four days?
Not one bit, mate. Manchester U tickets sell out in a flash. Ipswich? Not so much.
Eh.... more like front row tickets for Ipswitch vs 50th row tickets for Ipswitch.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3180 Post by Michael Martin » September 1st, 2020, 7:52 pm

The drunk, naked, cyclist didn’t post tasting notes on CT for the rereleases. Maybe just that simple. [snort.gif]

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3181 Post by Leonard Maran » September 1st, 2020, 7:54 pm

Bay Area residents: I live in San Francisco and have bought 4 cases of Cabernet. If anyone wants to share on cases let me know.
I just looked and I have bought OG 13 Napa Valley, OG 25 Spring Mountain, OG 44 Rutherford and today OG 40 Diamond Mtn .
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3182 Post by Lena N » September 1st, 2020, 8:05 pm

Chip Louie wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:25 pm
I am wondering if others are using specific wine glasses to tasting. I thought is was B.S. but after trying the Reidel Performance series glasses I became a believer.
I use Eisch wine glasses and it makes a lot of difference than some of the other wine glasses.
NG

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3183 Post by ericskitei » September 1st, 2020, 8:34 pm

Should be a fun thread to revisit when 2018 Constant is released so folks can do a side by side and see just how different they are (Assuming it is Constant in the end)

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3184 Post by PeterH » September 1st, 2020, 9:24 pm

I don't understand why a winery that has wine on allocation would be selling juice at a steep discount. Why are many of you convinced about Constant?

Note: I'm sure it will vastly over-perform for its price whatever the source.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3185 Post by JonathanG » September 1st, 2020, 9:43 pm

Chris Crutchfield wrote:
August 31st, 2020, 9:52 pm
Personally, I think about this from the perspective of the second or third wine of a Bordeaux. So if the grand vin retails for $150ish, the second wine probably retails for $40-50ish.

We are obviously not getting the grand vin of these labels. We are going to get the second or third wine. But for $18, I will certainly take that bet.
That's a great analogy for sure.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3186 Post by DanielP » September 1st, 2020, 9:44 pm

PeterH wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 9:24 pm
I don't understand why a winery that has wine on allocation would be selling juice at a steep discount. Why are many of you convinced about Constant?

Note: I'm sure it will vastly over-perform for its price whatever the source.
Well your first point is sort of philosophical but doesn't really apply as a reason for why it wouldn't be Constant, given that the wine description specifically notes that it's a mailing list only wine.

I think the reasons given in the thread are pretty good given that few wineries have holdings at 2,000 ft. Constant also seems to have the production to support such a liquidation. I don't think anyone can be certain without more information, but I do think it is the most likely producer.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3187 Post by JonathanG » September 1st, 2020, 9:44 pm

PeterH wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 9:24 pm
I don't understand why a winery that has wine on allocation would be selling juice at a steep discount. Why are many of you convinced about Constant?

Note: I'm sure it will vastly over-perform for its price whatever the source.
I think this question has been addressed multiple times throughout this thread (not about Constant, but about why wineries are doing this). When its answered, it invariably turns into a heated argument, then sometimes even a dumpster fire, then the thread calms down for a bit...suggest you look at some prior posts for the views on your very valid query.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3188 Post by JonathanG » September 1st, 2020, 9:51 pm

HoosJustinG wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 7:26 pm
Bring back MatthewT!
Yea, WTH MatthewT, I nominated you for VP and now you just abandon the campaign trail? You're making me look bad! champagne.gif
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3189 Post by DanielP » September 1st, 2020, 10:07 pm

JonathanG wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 9:43 pm
Chris Crutchfield wrote:
August 31st, 2020, 9:52 pm
Personally, I think about this from the perspective of the second or third wine of a Bordeaux. So if the grand vin retails for $150ish, the second wine probably retails for $40-50ish.

We are obviously not getting the grand vin of these labels. We are going to get the second or third wine. But for $18, I will certainly take that bet.
That's a great analogy for sure.
Not sure the analogy works for me. There is no real one way a second wine is made in Bordeaux, but I think a lot of them are made from grapes that are selected for second wine production. Some also just come from younger vines or perhaps barrels that didn't make the cut for the grand vin. Or some combination of the three. But the biggest difference is that the chateaus make a second wine.

Most of these napa producers don't really make a second wine, so I don't see why the producer would ferment and barrel grapes with the intention of being subpar to the rest of the production. Rather, I would think those grapes would have been sold off instead of going through all the extra work to get them to barrel.

Now the exact circumstances probably vary offer to offer, but my understanding is that these are largely from barrels that at some point were intended to be part of the production of the wines being referenced for xyz dollars, but didn't make the cut for reasons we can only speculate (excess production, dire market conditions, quality). So, I would think that these de negoce wines would more closely resemble their labeled counterparts than a second wine would resemble a grand vin. I would be a lot less bullish if dN had bought the grapes rather than the barrels
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3190 Post by JonathanG » September 1st, 2020, 10:11 pm

The point to me was that there is grand vin type of juice, and there is "not quite good enough for the grand vin" type of juice. And they sell the grand vin for a lot, and sell the next tier at a lower price. I don't care if the Napa winemakers don't actually make a 2nd wine, and there are plenty of other theories in this massive 63 page thread now as to why wineries do this, but this one is just another one that made sense to me. But doesn't mean it's a universal truth, so feel free to disagree.

Now, (channeling MatthewT), Come on Cam, let's see another $200 for $18! OG40 was a hit but what have you done for us today!
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3191 Post by john mccarty » September 1st, 2020, 11:10 pm

J. Patrick Lynch wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 3:03 pm
tpetty wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 2:55 pm
How do you know what offerings are upcoming? How do you know that #48 is a pinot? (Or is this just a guess/example) Is there a master list somewhere available?
- Cab
42 - Cab
43 - Cab
44 - Cab
45 - Merlot
46 - Cab
47 - Cab
48 - Pinot
51 - Cab Franc
52 - Cab Franc
53 - Merlot
54 - Cab
62 - Chard

dN has to register their labels ahead of time.
except that 42 and 44 have already been released, and several numbers in the sequence haven't been assigned, so the "next 20" list really looks like this:
41 - Cab
43 - Cab
45 - Merlot
46 - Cab
47 - Cab
48 - Pinot
49 - TBD
50 - TBD
51 - Cab Franc
52 - Cab Franc
53 - Merlot
54 - Cab
55 - TBD
56 - TBD
57 - TBD
58 - TBD
59 - TBD
60 - TBD
61 - TBD
62 - Chard

9 TBD's, 5 cabs, 2 merlot's, 1 pinot, 2 cab franc, and 1 chard, although Cam has said at least 2 more chards coming our way in the near term, so at least one of the TBD's is a chard. He also claimed in a recent xview that he was targeting ~100 releases by end of year. If true, he'll actually have to step up the pace a bit, as they've been coming at about 10 per month (42 over ~4 months).

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3192 Post by J. Patrick Lynch » September 2nd, 2020, 4:35 am

john mccarty wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 11:10 pm

except that 42 and 44 have already been released, and several numbers in the sequence haven't been assigned, so the "next 20" list really looks like this:
Thanks one-upper.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3193 Post by James Mc » September 2nd, 2020, 4:50 am

ericskitei wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 8:34 pm
Should be a fun thread to revisit when 2018 Constant is released so folks can do a side by side and see just how different they are (Assuming it is Constant in the end)
Honestly not likely. Folks who bought #40 arent likely to buy a single bottle for $185+ just to confirm its the same/similar. Also, im sure buyers of Constant are likely to lay it down for 5-10+ years. But I suppose you never know, it could happen.

I think thats sort of thing is more likely to happen with some of the $50-75 for $12 type offers. At least i hope it does.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3194 Post by Troy Stark » September 2nd, 2020, 5:53 am

DanielP wrote:
September 1st, 2020, 10:07 pm
Most of these napa producers don't really make a second wine, so I don't see why the producer would ferment and barrel grapes with the intention of being subpar to the rest of the production. Rather, I would think those grapes would have been sold off instead of going through all the extra work to get them to barrel.
I think you're right on this, though keep in mind that if a brand can't supply all their needs from their estate vineyards, they can end up with excess grapes during a bountiful harvest because they usually contract for a certain acreage rather than for a certain tonnage of grapes. There are both types of contracts, but I believe (happy to be corrected) most contracts are for blocks of vines, rather than for tons of grapes. So, extra grapes happen and the producer may not be able to just sell the grapes to a third-party purchaser by the time they realize they have "too much." And they may be required to take all the grapes regardless of whether they have a way to sell the wine, or risk losing their contract.

On the other hand, I think there are companies where a big part of their business is "acres under vine" and they make substantial revenue from selling bulk wine (think Gallo, Constellation, etc.). I am fairly certain, based on what Cam has said about this venture, we can all agree that is not what these wines are.

Rather, these are boutique wineries who simply have more wine than they can sell (for whatever reason - and there are probably a myriad of them). Maybe their sales went through the floor due to COVID? Maybe it's not even just COVID? Wine sales have been declining in the US for a while, save for certain categories, is my understanding. Maybe the harvest was too large and the fruit too beautiful to simply drop it on the ground? Maybe they overestimated sales? Maybe all of the above.

Whatever the reason, consumers are the ones who benefit.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3195 Post by Todd M » September 2nd, 2020, 6:32 am

Just a quick observation here gang, but this thread has become a bit boring since MatthewT left. I think that stinks as this thread has lost something.

Everyone knew dN was a bit of gamble, a fun roll of the dice. You didn't know exactly what you were getting, didn't know exactly when it would drop (except for 40), but it was a fun distraction during a time when distractions are pretty valuable. Coming to this board and reading the back and forth regarding possible origin, early tasting notes, speculation on what was coming next - it was fun. Now it's a bit of poop show. And why? Because people didn't like Matt's enthusiasm or otherwise wanted to be a funsucker? There were a few folks here who seemed like they couldn't wait to tell everyone why the deals couldn't be what others thought they might be, or couldn't wait to demonstrate how smart and sophisticated their wine knowledge was. And it went downhill from there and denigrated into personal attacks, name calling, blah, blah, blah. Not fun (or good reading).

It is what it is, but maybe next time someone feels like posting something snarky (securely behind the anonymity of an online message board), maybe just hold the thought and let it pass.

Peace out gang and I hope you all enjoy whatever wine makes you happy. Cheers and happy drinking.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3196 Post by Max S. » September 2nd, 2020, 6:53 am

And it went downhill from there and denigrated into personal attacks, name calling, blah, blah, blah. Not fun (or good reading).
Thats kind of the nature of the beast with an online forum, there are people you enjoy interacting with and people you don't... not all that much different from real life, except a little exaggerated.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3197 Post by David Buck » September 2nd, 2020, 6:55 am

Odds of offer today: 70%
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3198 Post by Michael Martin » September 2nd, 2020, 6:59 am

Let’s not make this a thread about anyone, let’s keep it on track with discussion of DN, the offers, the wines, the origins. That is what made it interesting. Once it become dominated and dissenting posters labeled, it went downhill.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#3199 Post by Sean S y d n e y » September 2nd, 2020, 7:02 am

Todd M wrote:
September 2nd, 2020, 6:32 am
Just a quick observation here gang, but this thread has become a bit boring since MatthewT left. I think that stinks as this thread has lost something.

Everyone knew dN was a bit of gamble, a fun roll of the dice. You didn't know exactly what you were getting, didn't know exactly when it would drop (except for 40), but it was a fun distraction during a time when distractions are pretty valuable. Coming to this board and reading the back and forth regarding possible origin, early tasting notes, speculation on what was coming next - it was fun. Now it's a bit of poop show. And why? Because people didn't like Matt's enthusiasm or otherwise wanted to be a funsucker? There were a few folks here who seemed like they couldn't wait to tell everyone why the deals couldn't be what others thought they might be, or couldn't wait to demonstrate how smart and sophisticated their wine knowledge was. And it went downhill from there and denigrated into personal attacks, name calling, blah, blah, blah. Not fun (or good reading).

It is what it is, but maybe next time someone feels like posting something snarky (securely behind the anonymity of an online message board), maybe just hold the thought and let it pass.

Peace out gang and I hope you all enjoy whatever wine makes you happy. Cheers and happy drinking.
There is a difference between enthusiasm between acting personally aggrieved when someone has a view contrary to yours. Calling everyone with a different or skeptical opinion of your particular fascination a "hater" is also making it personal because you're accusing them of having a vendetta and sinister motives rather than just acknowledging that not everyone is quite as moved by okay-to-very-good mystery Cab and the business model that pushes it, or that we find it interesting from a different angle.

I'd be happy for him to come back - come back, MatthewT, I know you're reading this! - and I don't think anyone should feel like they have to withdraw from this board because of their views on any wine. But I think that allying yourself that closely with ANY enterprise/artist/person and viewing it/them as an extension of your identity isn't the best tack. If you're not on the payroll, it isn't your job. That's why I don't wear clothes with logos on them - because I'm not a billboard.

(Sorry to psychoanalyze you, Matt. Please come back.)
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Re: de Negoce offer

#3200 Post by Michae1 P0wers » September 2nd, 2020, 7:13 am

^ Basically this. Matthew is still participating in other threads, so not gone. Perhaps this is just a sabbatical from the dN thread.

This thread has been bizarre, and somewhat fascinating. While never reaching a truly toxic level, it became acrimonious quickly and stayed that way. The most interesting part was how that strange, unnecessary, us vs. them vibe seemed to appeal to many, particularly newer members, while you could tell it was keeping others away.

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