de Negoce offer

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James Mc
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5951 Post by James Mc » October 19th, 2020, 2:01 pm

Kyle S chaffer wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:59 pm
which are the other #s that we think are Robert Craig? thanks
Cam eluded to this offer being the same source as 21, 22, 46, and 47
Last edited by James Mc on October 19th, 2020, 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5952 Post by Troy Stark » October 19th, 2020, 2:02 pm

I agree with MatthewT. For many of the other offers, there are multiple possibilities. For this one, there's literally not another producer it could be. I mean, maybe there is and we just haven't found it, but I don't think it's any of the others that have been suggested (Ladera, etc.) for a number of reasons that have already been covered.

At 15.7%, those grapes must have been RIPE. Larry can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are even many yeast strains that can operate at that high of an ABV. I think I've seen 16% on a couple of non-fortified wines in my life, but I think it's an exception rather than the rule.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5953 Post by DanielP » October 19th, 2020, 2:04 pm

But does Calistoga really fit at all with Robert Craig?
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5954 Post by MatthewT » October 19th, 2020, 2:05 pm

Kyle S chaffer wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:59 pm
which are the other #s that we think are Robert Craig? thanks
It's the email.

"in addition to N.21, 22, 46 and 47 sold previously"
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5955 Post by Aleks V » October 19th, 2020, 2:06 pm

Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:20 pm
Passing due to ridiculous ABV
Same here. I didn’t even realize Napa producers made cabs that hot. Paso obviously a different story...
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5956 Post by Robert M yers » October 19th, 2020, 2:40 pm

I was thinking of biting until I saw that 15.7. Wow, that could be a reason to declassify right there.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5957 Post by David Buck » October 19th, 2020, 6:22 pm

Aleks V wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:06 pm
Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:20 pm
Passing due to ridiculous ABV
Same here. I didn’t even realize Napa producers made cabs that hot. Paso obviously a different story...
FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5958 Post by Andreas Birnik » October 19th, 2020, 6:28 pm

Troy Stark wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:02 pm
I agree with MatthewT. For many of the other offers, there are multiple possibilities. For this one, there's literally not another producer it could be. I mean, maybe there is and we just haven't found it, but I don't think it's any of the others that have been suggested (Ladera, etc.) for a number of reasons that have already been covered.

At 15.7%, those grapes must have been RIPE. Larry can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are even many yeast strains that can operate at that high of an ABV. I think I've seen 16% on a couple of non-fortified wines in my life, but I think it's an exception rather than the rule.
wyeast 4946 is suitable for red wine and can handle up to 18% ABV
https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/bold-redhigh-alcohol

They also have wyeast 4021 for white/sparkling wine that can handle up to 17% ABV
https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/dry-whitesparkling

So when de Négoce releases a 17% white wine, you know what yeast has been used ;-)
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5959 Post by Curtis Chen » October 19th, 2020, 6:32 pm

David Buck wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 6:22 pm
Aleks V wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:06 pm
Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:20 pm
Passing due to ridiculous ABV
Same here. I didn’t even realize Napa producers made cabs that hot. Paso obviously a different story...
FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..
What does a Cabernet Port blend taste like ._.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5960 Post by EAScrog » October 19th, 2020, 6:59 pm

Curtis Chen wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 6:32 pm


What does a Cabernet Port blend taste like ._.
Dunno, but Zinfandel ports can be pretty tasty
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5961 Post by Rodrigo B » October 19th, 2020, 7:08 pm

The leaderboard shows MattT with 21 cases? I think Matt's trying to play down his de Negoce addiction [snort.gif] neener
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5962 Post by MatthewT » October 19th, 2020, 7:13 pm

Rodrigo B wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:08 pm
The leaderboard shows MattT with 21 cases? I think Matt's trying to play down his de Negoce addiction [snort.gif] neener
LOL someone else did that, not me. I'm mid 40's myself and with the 4 I've bought for family 50.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5963 Post by Chris Crutchfield » October 19th, 2020, 7:24 pm

David Buck wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 6:22 pm
FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..
I think the record is OG N.41 at 16%

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5964 Post by DanielP » October 19th, 2020, 7:26 pm

2014 Anderson's Conn Valley cabs went up to 16.4% ABV lol
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5965 Post by M.Kaplan » October 19th, 2020, 7:26 pm

MatthewT wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:13 pm
Rodrigo B wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:08 pm
The leaderboard shows MattT with 21 cases? I think Matt's trying to play down his de Negoce addiction [snort.gif] neener
LOL someone else did that, not me. I'm mid 40's myself and with the 4 I've bought for family 50.
I can’t imagine buying 500+ bottles of unknown grab bag wines. Hope it works out for you.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5966 Post by MatthewT » October 19th, 2020, 7:56 pm

M.Kaplan wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:26 pm
MatthewT wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:13 pm
Rodrigo B wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:08 pm
The leaderboard shows MattT with 21 cases? I think Matt's trying to play down his de Negoce addiction [snort.gif] neener
LOL someone else did that, not me. I'm mid 40's myself and with the 4 I've bought for family 50.
I can’t imagine buying 500+ bottles of unknown grab bag wines. Hope it works out for you.
Thanks man. Really appreciate it.

But just so you know, it's not 500+ bottles of unknown grab bag wines, whatever the F that even means. I have bought 12 bottles (and sometimes 24 but rarely) of specific unknown wines. But usually just 12. And they are ALL different wines. And I've now tried 4 (48) of them and LOVED them.

Go me! Winning!
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5967 Post by Aleks V » October 19th, 2020, 8:08 pm

DanielP wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:26 pm
2014 Anderson's Conn Valley cabs went up to 16.4% ABV lol
Not sure I could drink that. I like more modern wines just fine but when ABV gets over 15% the finish resembles crappy cherry / blueberry liquer to me.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5968 Post by Vince L. » October 19th, 2020, 8:25 pm

MatthewT wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:56 pm

Thanks man. Really appreciate it.
champagne.gif to how you handle these nowadays. Back in the days it would've more of the [popcorn.gif]
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5969 Post by larry schaffer » October 19th, 2020, 8:37 pm

Troy Stark wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:02 pm
I agree with MatthewT. For many of the other offers, there are multiple possibilities. For this one, there's literally not another producer it could be. I mean, maybe there is and we just haven't found it, but I don't think it's any of the others that have been suggested (Ladera, etc.) for a number of reasons that have already been covered.

At 15.7%, those grapes must have been RIPE. Larry can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are even many yeast strains that can operate at that high of an ABV. I think I've seen 16% on a couple of non-fortified wines in my life, but I think it's an exception rather than the rule.
Plenty of strains can go that high - and come on folks, so many wines out there are still made at >15%. Forget the numbers - if you like it, you like it. The problem here, of course, is that you can't purchase a single bottle . . .

But seriously, there are so many Naa cabs out there at that all level - not to mention most Saxums and SQNs, for instance.

Cheers.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5970 Post by JonathanG » October 19th, 2020, 8:52 pm

MatthewT wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:56 pm
M.Kaplan wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:26 pm
MatthewT wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 7:13 pm


LOL someone else did that, not me. I'm mid 40's myself and with the 4 I've bought for family 50.
I can’t imagine buying 500+ bottles of unknown grab bag wines. Hope it works out for you.
Thanks man. Really appreciate it.

But just so you know, it's not 500+ bottles of unknown grab bag wines, whatever the F that even means. I have bought 12 bottles (and sometimes 24 but rarely) of specific unknown wines. But usually just 12. And they are ALL different wines. And I've now tried 4 (48) of them and LOVED them.

Go me! Winning!
I am winning right along side you buddy. And I haven't even tried one yet. In fact, I think 98% of the wines I have bought over the past 12 months were "grab bag" for me since I never tried them before. Really hope I like the massive amounts of 2018 and 2019 Bordeaux I bought without tasting it!
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5971 Post by Leonard Maran » October 19th, 2020, 11:27 pm

Remember when “winning” was gross, coming from Charlie Sheen?

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5972 Post by ChrisWolff » October 20th, 2020, 5:13 am

larry schaffer wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 8:37 pm
Troy Stark wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:02 pm
I agree with MatthewT. For many of the other offers, there are multiple possibilities. For this one, there's literally not another producer it could be. I mean, maybe there is and we just haven't found it, but I don't think it's any of the others that have been suggested (Ladera, etc.) for a number of reasons that have already been covered.

At 15.7%, those grapes must have been RIPE. Larry can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there are even many yeast strains that can operate at that high of an ABV. I think I've seen 16% on a couple of non-fortified wines in my life, but I think it's an exception rather than the rule.
Plenty of strains can go that high - and come on folks, so many wines out there are still made at >15%. Forget the numbers - if you like it, you like it. The problem here, of course, is that you can't purchase a single bottle . . .

But seriously, there are so many Naa cabs out there at that all level - not to mention most Saxums and SQNs, for instance.

Cheers.
Doesn’t seem like much of a problem given the rate and frequency these offers are selling out

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5973 Post by G. D y e r » October 20th, 2020, 8:12 am

David Buck wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 6:22 pm
Aleks V wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 2:06 pm
Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 19th, 2020, 1:20 pm
Passing due to ridiculous ABV
Same here. I didn’t even realize Napa producers made cabs that hot. Paso obviously a different story...
FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..
One point to keep in mind is that dN is probably not applying 'corrections' like reverse osmosis and spinning cone methods to de-alc the wine. The original producers, if blending those lots under their own label, may well do so given that they can afford to at a higher price point.

Napa Cabernet is generally being grown in a warm climate, harvested late, yielded at low levels to increase concentration, and aggressively sorted to get the 'best' berries. 15% to 16% ABV is probably very common, if not the norm, given all of the factors that lead to (uniformly) ripe fruit.

I'm sure the overall prevalence of de-alc is not zero in Napa, given the market preference for dark ripe fruit with minimal herbaceous qualities that are often typical of Cab and Bdx varieties. And I doubt de-alc is a cost/time effective approach for a operation like dN.
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In that way, he is like cornerback Darrelle Revis, deserving of his own island, Mangold Island, if you will. “That would be a rusty, filthy island where people wear ripped jeans and stay in hotel rooms that are half price,” tight end Dustin Keller said. “But they would serve wine, and only the finest for Nick Mangold.”

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5974 Post by larry schaffer » October 20th, 2020, 8:24 am

I wish Roy Piper or someone else up there would pipe in here with real 'anecdotal' info about the thinks Greg mentioned above. I certainly have heard stories about extra ripe picking, concentrating, de-alcing and de-VA'ing, etc to make the final wine. It is not uncommon for more than a few producers to bring grapes in close to 30 brix if possible and then 'massage' the wines back to a 'manageable' alcohol level for release . . .

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5975 Post by DavidR » October 20th, 2020, 8:52 am

Does anyone have the list of label registrations/upcoming offers? Would be interested in seeing what's coming down the pike.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5976 Post by Rodrigo B » October 20th, 2020, 9:16 am

Here’s the one’s we know that are upcoming:
#57 2018 St. Helena Cabernet Sauvignon 16.2% ABV
#68 2018 Sonoma County Cabernet Sauvignon 14.5% ABV
#69 2018 Napa Valley Merlot 14.8% ABV
#73 2019 Russian River Valley Chardonnay 14.5% ABV
#82 2019 Walla Walla Red Blend 56% Cabernet Sauvignon, 21% Merlot, 23% Petit Verdot. 45% new oak. $95/bottle normally. Cost: $180/case

EDIT: added missing offer
Last edited by Rodrigo B on October 20th, 2020, 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5977 Post by Troy Stark » October 20th, 2020, 9:26 am

Got caught thread drifting in the dN tasting notes thread and thought it best to move the discussion over here. Food for thought; there are quite a few blind tasting studies showing;

1. If people are told a price, they report better enjoyment of or attach better descriptors to the more expensive wine, even if the "expensive" and "cheap" wine are the exact same wine.

https://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050.full
We tested this hypothesis by scanning human subjects using functional MRI while they tasted wines that, contrary to reality, they believed to be different and sold at different prices. Our results show that increasing the [stated] price of a wine increases subjective reports of flavor pleasantness as well as blood-oxygen-level-dependent activity in medial orbitofrontal cortex, an area that is widely thought to encode for experienced pleasantness during experiential tasks.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=1392208
Disclosing the high price before tasting the wine produces considerably higher ratings, although only from women. Disclosing the low price, by contrast, does not result in lower ratings.
http://static.stevereads.com/papers_to_ ... riment.pdf
What the subjects were [told] was that they were going to taste a simple wine and a great wine. What in fact was in the glasses was identical, average on both occasions.... The subject perceives, in reality, what he or she has pre-perceived and finds it difficult to back away.
2. If people do NOT know the price of the wine, they will usually report they enjoy the wine that cost less. There's a reverse correlation between price and enjoyment reported when the price is unknown.

http://livebetterlife.net/wp-content/up ... stings.pdf
[W]e find that the correlation between price and overall rating is small and negative, suggesting that individuals on average enjoy more expensive wines slightly less. For individuals with wine training, however, we find indications of a positive relationship between price and enjoyment.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... A8206E0583
In three of the tastings, there was no relationship between price and enjoyment, while in the other the relationship was negative, lending additional credibility to the contention that an important segment of wine consumers do not find enjoyment to increase with price.
So, most people will say they enjoy more expensive wines better than cheaper ones (and will ACTUALLY enjoy it more if price is known), but if they are presented blind they may select otherwise. What do you think?
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5978 Post by L Harris » October 20th, 2020, 9:27 am

Rodrigo B wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:16 am
Here’s the one’s we know that are upcoming:
#73 2019 Russian River Valley Chardonnay 14.5% ABV
#68 2018 Sonoma County Cabernet Sauvignon 14.5% ABV
#69 2018 Napa Valley Merlot 14.8% ABV
#82 2019 Walla Walla Red Blend 56% Cabernet Sauvignon, 21% Merlot, 23% Petit Verdot. 45% new oak. $95/bottle normally. Cost: $180/case
We also never got #57 I don't think - Cabernet Sauvignon
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5979 Post by Robert M yers » October 20th, 2020, 9:28 am

Troy Stark wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:26 am
Got caught thread drifting in the dN tasting notes thread and thought it best to move the discussion over here. Food for thought; there are quite a few blind tasting studies showing;

1. If people are told a price, they report better enjoyment of or attach better descriptors to the more expensive wine, even if the "expensive" and "cheap" wine are the exact same wine.

https://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050.full
We tested this hypothesis by scanning human subjects using functional MRI while they tasted wines that, contrary to reality, they believed to be different and sold at different prices. Our results show that increasing the [stated] price of a wine increases subjective reports of flavor pleasantness as well as blood-oxygen-level-dependent activity in medial orbitofrontal cortex, an area that is widely thought to encode for experienced pleasantness during experiential tasks.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=1392208
Disclosing the high price before tasting the wine produces considerably higher ratings, although only from women. Disclosing the low price, by contrast, does not result in lower ratings.
http://static.stevereads.com/papers_to_ ... riment.pdf
What the subjects were [told] was that they were going to taste a simple wine and a great wine. What in fact was in the glasses was identical, average on both occasions.... The subject perceives, in reality, what he or she has pre-perceived and finds it difficult to back away.
2. If people do NOT know the price of the wine, they will usually report they enjoy the wine that cost less. There's a reverse correlation between price and enjoyment reported when the price is unknown.

http://livebetterlife.net/wp-content/up ... stings.pdf
[W]e find that the correlation between price and overall rating is small and negative, suggesting that individuals on average enjoy more expensive wines slightly less. For individuals with wine training, however, we find indications of a positive relationship between price and enjoyment.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... A8206E0583
In three of the tastings, there was no relationship between price and enjoyment, while in the other the relationship was negative, lending additional credibility to the contention that an important segment of wine consumers do not find enjoyment to increase with price.
So, most people will say they enjoy more expensive wines better than cheaper ones (and will ACTUALLY enjoy it more if price is known), but if they are presented blind they may select otherwise. What do you think?
What about cheap wine that we think is actually expensive wine?

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5980 Post by Troy Stark » October 20th, 2020, 9:30 am

If they think it's expensive, they will enjoy it more. Did you read the quotes from the studies? The third one under point 1 is pretty much exactly on point for your question.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5981 Post by Robert M yers » October 20th, 2020, 9:34 am

Thanks for the quotes, I was just jabbing at my own shortcomings. I did not read every example because I know the general rules to be true from personal experiences.
Last edited by Robert M yers on October 20th, 2020, 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5982 Post by MatthewT » October 20th, 2020, 9:34 am

Troy Stark wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:30 am
If they think it's expensive, they will enjoy it more. Did you read the quotes from the studies? The third one under point 1 is pretty much exactly on point for your question.
What about if you are told it's expensive but being sold to you cheap ($180 for $18) but you firmly believe it's garbage surplus crap worth $18 the actual selling price of the wine? [rofl.gif]
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5983 Post by Rodrigo B » October 20th, 2020, 9:35 am

L Harris wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:27 am
Rodrigo B wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:16 am
Here’s the one’s we know that are upcoming:
#73 2019 Russian River Valley Chardonnay 14.5% ABV
#68 2018 Sonoma County Cabernet Sauvignon 14.5% ABV
#69 2018 Napa Valley Merlot 14.8% ABV
#82 2019 Walla Walla Red Blend 56% Cabernet Sauvignon, 21% Merlot, 23% Petit Verdot. 45% new oak. $95/bottle normally. Cost: $180/case
We also never got #57 I don't think - Cabernet Sauvignon
Yep, you are right. Updated my comment.
#57 2018 St. Helena Cabernet Sauvignon 16.2% ABV

For those joking about what would happen if Cam released a 16%+ ABV wine, guess we'll see what happens when this offer comes up
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5984 Post by Troy Stark » October 20th, 2020, 9:35 am

Sorry I missed the subtle humor. Now that I see it, touche!
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5985 Post by DanielP » October 20th, 2020, 9:35 am

Most of these wine studies are useless. Why do we care about the general population that probably drinks coke with dinner every night? What it really tells you is that the general population has no taste for fine wine
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5986 Post by Troy Stark » October 20th, 2020, 9:38 am

Honestly, the more I read that third quote, the more I think it fits perfectly here, both for people who are expecting the wines to be good and those who expect it to be bad!
What the subjects were [told] was that they were going to taste a simple wine and a great wine. What in fact was in the glasses was identical, average on both occasions.... The subject perceives, in reality, what he or she has pre-perceived and finds it difficult to back away.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5987 Post by Rodrigo B » October 20th, 2020, 9:38 am

MatthewT wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:34 am
Troy Stark wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:30 am
If they think it's expensive, they will enjoy it more. Did you read the quotes from the studies? The third one under point 1 is pretty much exactly on point for your question.
What about if you are told it's expensive but being sold to you cheap ($180 for $18) but you firmly believe it's garbage surplus crap worth $18 the actual selling price of the wine? [rofl.gif]
The standard response is to find an offsite facility that has a private locked that's been used by a MLB team to store an entire team's worth of wine for consumption and then proceed to single-handedly purchase enough of said wine to fill up the entire locker. neener
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5988 Post by MatthewT » October 20th, 2020, 9:39 am

Troy Stark wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:38 am
Honestly, the more I read that third quote, the more I think it fits perfectly here, both for people who are expecting the wines to be good and those who expect it to be bad!
What the subjects were [told] was that they were going to taste a simple wine and a great wine. What in fact was in the glasses was identical, average on both occasions.... The subject perceives, in reality, what he or she has pre-perceived and finds it difficult to back away.
I agree with that. I am 1000000% biased to like these de Negoce wines. For a million reasons.

I also think that haters are almost as biased to...hate them.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5989 Post by Troy Stark » October 20th, 2020, 9:40 am

DanielP wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:35 am
Most of these wine studies are useless. Why do we care about the general population that probably drinks coke with dinner every night? What it really tells you is that the general population has no taste for fine wine
The population tested in the last study I quoted were reported to be "members of a wine club," so not necessarily general pop. Here's the full abstract;
Economic theorists maintain that wine is an experience good, a product whose quality can be evaluated only after purchase and consumption. Theory holds that consumers often rely on the price of experience goods as one cue to judge their quality. In this paper, however, I provide evidence that an important segment of wine consumers do not consider price a useful cue to quality. Specifically, I test the robustness of Goldstein et al.,'s (2008) finding that, in blind tastings, average wine drinkers consider less expensive wines to taste better than more expensive wines. Four blind tastings of 2006 red Bordeaux and 2009 white Burgundy with a price range of $20–$119 were conducted, in which members of a wine club rated their extent of enjoyment of each wine. In three of the tastings, there was no relationship between price and enjoyment, while in the other the relationship was negative, lending additional credibility to the contention that an important segment of wine consumers do not find enjoyment to increase with price. (JEL Classification: C91)
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5990 Post by larry schaffer » October 20th, 2020, 9:41 am

DanielP wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:35 am
Most of these wine studies are useless. Why do we care about the general population that probably drinks coke with dinner every night? What it really tells you is that the general population has no taste for fine wine
Well, that's one way to look at it.

The other is that the general population has a DIFFERENT taste for wine than you do - which should be welcomed and encouraged because, heck, they're drinking wine . . .

Cheers.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5991 Post by Chris Crutchfield » October 20th, 2020, 9:43 am

I'm not particularly interested in blind tasting studies conducted on amateurs. It's like asking random people on the street what they think the best film of the year is and hearing that it's avengers or star wars or whatever.

I think wine aficionados can generally distinguish with reasonable accuracy between a cheap wine and an expensive wine. The signs are usually pretty obvious.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5992 Post by Chris Crutchfield » October 20th, 2020, 9:47 am

What the subjects were [told] was that they were going to taste a simple wine and a great wine. What in fact was in the glasses was identical, average on both occasions.... The subject perceives, in reality, what he or she has pre-perceived and finds it difficult to back away.
I mean, it's not too interesting that when you lie to people they will take you at face value and try to find differences that aren't there. Same as if I showed you two photos that I say are subtly different, but are actually identical.

The real test is to do a triplet test where you give 2 wines that are the same and 1 that is different, and ask the person to identify the odd one out.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5993 Post by Troy Stark » October 20th, 2020, 9:49 am

Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:43 am
I'm not particularly interested in blind tasting studies conducted on amateurs. It's like asking random people on the street what they think the best film of the year is and hearing that it's avengers or star wars or whatever.

I think wine aficionados can generally distinguish with reasonable accuracy between a cheap wine and an expensive wine. The signs are usually pretty obvious.
Chris, I am not sure a controlled study would actually support that conclusion. Consider Frederic Brochet and Denis Dubourdieu's famous study at the University of Bordeaux, which was performed upon 54 undergraduate oenology students (hardly "amateurs" in the wine sense). They couldn't even tell they were tasting white wine that had been colored red;

http://www.daysyn.com/Morrot.pdf
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5994 Post by larry schaffer » October 20th, 2020, 9:50 am

Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:43 am
I'm not particularly interested in blind tasting studies conducted on amateurs. It's like asking random people on the street what they think the best film of the year is and hearing that it's avengers or star wars or whatever.

I think wine aficionados can generally distinguish with reasonable accuracy between a cheap wine and an expensive wine. The signs are usually pretty obvious.
Chris,

The point is that they are not as obvious as everyone wants to make them out to be - not by a long shot. Yes, there are some 'mass market' wines that are easy to pick out based on RS, etc - but I can honestly say that at events like Falltacular, I've had wines that, had I had them blind, would have thought they might be 'supermarket' wines and not 'premium' or 'sought after' wines.

Cheers.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5995 Post by R Scott Hughes » October 20th, 2020, 9:50 am

MatthewT wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:39 am
Troy Stark wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:38 am
Honestly, the more I read that third quote, the more I think it fits perfectly here, both for people who are expecting the wines to be good and those who expect it to be bad!
What the subjects were [told] was that they were going to taste a simple wine and a great wine. What in fact was in the glasses was identical, average on both occasions.... The subject perceives, in reality, what he or she has pre-perceived and finds it difficult to back away.
I agree with that. I am 1000000% biased to like these de Negoce wines. For a million reasons.

I also think that haters are almost as biased to...hate them.

Confirmation bias is astoundingly powerful - and can be even more so for topics on which people consider themselves to be experts. And every single study that I have read on confirmation bias, at least those that are worthwhile, fully support my beliefs on the topic.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5996 Post by MatthewT » October 20th, 2020, 9:51 am

R Scott Hughes wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:50 am
MatthewT wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:39 am
Troy Stark wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:38 am
Honestly, the more I read that third quote, the more I think it fits perfectly here, both for people who are expecting the wines to be good and those who expect it to be bad!

I agree with that. I am 1000000% biased to like these de Negoce wines. For a million reasons.

I also think that haters are almost as biased to...hate them.

Confirmation bias is astoundingly powerful - and can be even more so for topics on which people consider themselves to be experts. And every single study that I have read on confirmation bias, at least those that are worthwhile, fully support my beliefs on the topic.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5997 Post by Troy Stark » October 20th, 2020, 9:52 am

Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:47 am
What the subjects were [told] was that they were going to taste a simple wine and a great wine. What in fact was in the glasses was identical, average on both occasions.... The subject perceives, in reality, what he or she has pre-perceived and finds it difficult to back away.
I mean, it's not too interesting that when you lie to people they will take you at face value and try to find differences that aren't there. Same as if I showed you two photos that I say are subtly different, but are actually identical.

The real test is to do a triplet test where you give 2 wines that are the same and 1 that is different, and ask the person to identify the odd one out.
Why is that a real test and the others are not? They all show interesting things. "Lying" to the test takers is often a necessary part of psychological tests. There's no way to test the hypothesis without it. "How do we prove that price influences perception?" Answer; "Pour people the same wine and tell them it cost different amounts and see what results you get."

By the way, the wine wasn't "cheap" OR "expensive." It was "average."
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Re: de Negoce offer

#5998 Post by Chris Crutchfield » October 20th, 2020, 9:56 am

Troy Stark wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:49 am
Chris, I am not sure a controlled study would actually support that conclusion. Consider Frederic Brochet and Denis Dubourdieu's famous study at the University of Bordeaux, which was performed upon 54 undergraduate oenology students (hardly "amateurs" in the wine sense). They couldn't even tell they were tasting white wine that had been colored red;

http://www.daysyn.com/Morrot.pdf
Did you even read the article you posted? They didn't taste the wine, they just smelled it.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#5999 Post by DanielP » October 20th, 2020, 10:01 am

Troy Stark wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:49 am
Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:43 am
I'm not particularly interested in blind tasting studies conducted on amateurs. It's like asking random people on the street what they think the best film of the year is and hearing that it's avengers or star wars or whatever.

I think wine aficionados can generally distinguish with reasonable accuracy between a cheap wine and an expensive wine. The signs are usually pretty obvious.
Chris, I am not sure a controlled study would actually support that conclusion. Consider Frederic Brochet and Denis Dubourdieu's famous study at the University of Bordeaux, which was performed upon 54 undergraduate oenology students (hardly "amateurs" in the wine sense). They couldn't even tell they were tasting white wine that had been colored red;

http://www.daysyn.com/Morrot.pdf
Once again, you're overinterpreting these studies, which are really limited in their applicability. All you can conclude is that you can trick people by lying to them.

On average, I think I could do better than a random guess when it comes to grape identification. But if you hand me a bottle that's labeled chardonnay but pour muscadet into it, I'm going to tell you that it's a chardonnay 100/100 times.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6000 Post by Rodrigo B » October 20th, 2020, 10:03 am

Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 9:43 am
I'm not particularly interested in blind tasting studies conducted on amateurs. It's like asking random people on the street what they think the best film of the year is and hearing that it's avengers or star wars or whatever.

I think wine aficionados can generally distinguish with reasonable accuracy between a cheap wine and an expensive wine. The signs are usually pretty obvious.
What you are suggesting would be a separate subject of research, whether people can pick out wines which which are more expensive from the cheaper ones. The studies Troy brought up are to meant explore how price affects people’s perception and assessment of a wine, for that you necessarily need to “lie” to participants about the price of a wine in order to analyse whether a higher or lower stated price affect's people's judgements of the quality of a wine
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