de Negoce offer

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Eric White
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6401 Post by Eric White » October 24th, 2020, 3:09 pm

I guess I'll provide another West Coast (OR) shipping data point:

- No 8, Cabernet. - shipped by mistake in summer, $5 hold fee refunded
- No 16, Sauv Blanc - delivered in summer per my request
- No.12 Chardonnay - delivered a couple weeks ago, did not request hold

Others that have been delivered over the past couple months:
3, 4, 6, 7, 9. 11. 15, 19, 21

Still awaiting:
20, 22, 25, 27, 28, 29, 31, 37, 39, 42, 43, 44, 47, 48, 49, 50, 55, 56, 68, 69, 70, 74

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Kris Patten
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6402 Post by Kris Patten » October 24th, 2020, 4:03 pm

PeterH wrote:
October 23rd, 2020, 9:13 pm
Well, so much for expecting a high end WA Syrah. I'm sure this will be a great deal as a wedding, company picnic, or other event wine.
No way you are going to see Reynvaan, Cayuse (and associated), K Vintners, Gramercy, or Betz in a Negoce label. Outside of them, most WA Syrah is well under $40 so I wouldn't expect to see any WA Syrah over $12 in this project.
ITB

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6403 Post by Eric White » October 24th, 2020, 4:27 pm

Kris Patten wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:03 pm
PeterH wrote:
October 23rd, 2020, 9:13 pm
Well, so much for expecting a high end WA Syrah. I'm sure this will be a great deal as a wedding, company picnic, or other event wine.
No way you are going to see Reynvaan, Cayuse (and associated), K Vintners, Gramercy, or Betz in a Negoce label. Outside of them, most WA Syrah is well under $40 so I wouldn't expect to see any WA Syrah over $12 in this project.
Agreed, with the exception of K Vintners and Betz. KV because they produce a huge amount of wine across a wide variety of price points, I could easily see them having excesss. And Betz, only because they've started showing up on discount sites over the past couple years (LastBottle, for example).

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Roy Piper
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6404 Post by Roy Piper » October 24th, 2020, 4:40 pm

G. D y e r wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:12 am

FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..
Re alcohol levels..... 15.0-15.5% is not uncommon at all. But 15.6-16%+ is rare for Cab in Napa, now. Firstly, because most people notice the alcohol at that level and dislike it. Also, because there is only one yeast that can ferment that high commonly used in primary ferments and that is William Selyem "Jacklass Hill" Zin yeast. Most winemakers I know who use that yeast tend to water back to the mid to low 15s, rather than finish over 15.5%, if they pick over 26.5 brix. In addition, with Parker gone, alcohols are slightly trending slightly lower, anyway. Also, they are trending lower due to new optical sorters and new de-stemmers, which remove anything resembling a dimple or raisin. You can easily pick at 26.5 brix now and finish at a natural 14.8%, with no water-add. I did that exact thing with one of my vineyards this vintage. A few years ago you would finish 26.5 brix at 15.9%. I would probably dislike a 16.2% Cab most of the time. Once past 15.3% "real" alcohol (not what it says on the label), Cabs seem hot to me.

De-alcing is more and more common the higher and higher in price you go. One critical Napa darling de-alched routinely for many years. All those 13.5% Cabs? Guessing they were 14-14.5+% naturally and then de-alched. Proof for this can be found in multiple places online, as the former owner/winemaker openly admitted to it. I hear the new winemaker has stopped that process.

I find that the more a winery needs 98-100pts to keep sustainable, the MORE intervention is needed and more often. Interventions are not cheap. The goal for some wineries is to pull out every stop every year to ensure the wines score well. They may not be large changes, but a series of small adjustments, here and there, with none of them large enough on their own to be considered "cheating." The thing is... they work. I see it over and over. I can think of a couple of wines that tinker, with great results, even getting 100pts. I probably should follow suit, frankly, as those wines seem so damned polished upon release. Not doing these things costs me money, no doubt. Critics want extracted, tannic, concentrated wines but at the same time one that has the finesse of a 10-15 year old wine. They allow BDX time to do this in bottle, but not Napa, in a weird double-standard that acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Another method to up the scores is "sweetspotting" the acid levels, either by addition or subtraction. This may be the most common way of hitting a target. Winemakers get a wine and create samples of the pH at 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, 3.7 etc, up to 4.1... figure out which one they like best and then add or subtract acid to hit that level to the whole wine, usually in tank before bottling. Have no doubt this works wonders. A Cab at 3.65 pH is nothing at all like the same juice at 3.95. Pinots have been known to do this as well, now and then.

I can say that additions of mega purple to finished wines sold in bottle are wayyyy down the last decade. They are so easy to spot. Very glad about this. I think large scale interventions are actually in decline. Mainly because vineyard management is getting so darned good!

For me, given I both make the wine AND sell it, I prefer to avoid as much changes after fermentation as possible because the sales person in me is not separated from the winemaker person in me. My rule of thumb is, once it is in barrel, unless there is a danger, I try not to tinker. But I have no problem with any kind of nutrient add, acid add, enzyme or water-add... as long as it's before it goes to barrel. Others might also view THOSE things as interfering or manufacturing, and in fact the "natural wine" movement is all about that. But in my opinion, it is NOT possible to make a great Napa Cab at a natural 13.5% alcohol. Anyone who needs that as a requirement should go to Bordeaux. Just make sure it is the Left... and not the Right, Bank. :-P

One last thing.... all these ways to tinker with a wine? Napa gets it ALL from Bordeaux. Whether it is yeast or nutrients or any such thing, French companies have close to a 100% market share in Napa. We got all this from them. One of the big 100-point BDX estates uses sweetspotters and reverse osmosis all the time. One great BDX everyone spends insane money on adds sugar to their ferments every year, whether the vintage needs it or not, because they like the effect on mouthfeel. Napa is just picking up where BDX leaves off. And the critics never know the difference. In fact, they ALL reward the practice and the points, and resulting prices, prove that. Think about it.... why would anyone make all those adjustments unless it paid off?

If I felt the need to do something to save a vintage and stay solvent, I would. No reason to go out of business in the name of a "purity test." But I just don't want to make a HABIT of things, manufacturing finesse and voluptuousness every year. I would prefer to try to gain as much quality in the vineyard and during fermentation and then blending and then call it a day. My own wines are often rugged and sometime angular on release but get better with every passing year (I think :) .) I would rather, hopefully, let time add the finesse. I've had too many highly scoring wines that are best the day they are released and are already losing color at age 7. But hey... wineries are not selling old vintages, are they?

In the end, everyone has to make their own decisions. This is a very hard business and about to get a LOT harder. If I was making 1,500 or 2,500 cases, it might force my hand into making decisions about what to do before releasing the wine, that at 300 cases, I just don't need to. It's one of the reasons I stay so small. Less temptation. But I know how to pull the levers.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6405 Post by Aleks V » October 24th, 2020, 5:35 pm

Roy Piper wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:40 pm
G. D y e r wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:12 am

FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..
Re alcohol levels..... 15.0-15.5% is not uncommon at all. But 15.6-16%+ is rare for Cab in Napa, now. Firstly, because most people notice the alcohol at that level and dislike it. Also, because there is only one yeast that can ferment that high commonly used in primary ferments and that is William Selyem "Jacklass Hill" Zin yeast. Most winemakers I know who use that yeast tend to water back to the mid to low 15s, rather than finish over 15.5%, if they pick over 26.5 brix. In addition, with Parker gone, alcohols are slightly trending slightly lower, anyway. Also, they are trending lower due to new optical sorters and new de-stemmers, which remove anything resembling a dimple or raisin. You can easily pick at 26.5 brix now and finish at a natural 14.8%, with no water-add. I did that exact thing with one of my vineyards this vintage. A few years ago you would finish 26.5 brix at 15.9%. I would probably dislike a 16.2% Cab most of the time. Once past 15.3% "real" alcohol (not what it says on the label), Cabs seem hot to me.

De-alcing is more and more common the higher and higher in price you go. One critical Napa darling de-alched routinely for many years. All those 13.5% Cabs? Guessing they were 14-14.5+% naturally and then de-alched. Proof for this can be found in multiple places online, as the former owner/winemaker openly admitted to it. I hear the new winemaker has stopped that process.

I find that the more a winery needs 98-100pts to keep sustainable, the MORE intervention is needed and more often. Interventions are not cheap. The goal for some wineries is to pull out every stop every year to ensure the wines score well. They may not be large changes, but a series of small adjustments, here and there, with none of them large enough on their own to be considered "cheating." The thing is... they work. I see it over and over. I can think of a couple of wines that tinker, with great results, even getting 100pts. I probably should follow suit, frankly, as those wines seem so damned polished upon release. Not doing these things costs me money, no doubt. Critics want extracted, tannic, concentrated wines but at the same time one that has the finesse of a 10-15 year old wine. They allow BDX time to do this in bottle, but not Napa, in a weird double-standard that acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Another method to up the scores is "sweetspotting" the acid levels, either by addition or subtraction. This may be the most common way of hitting a target. Winemakers get a wine and create samples of the pH at 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, 3.7 etc, up to 4.1... figure out which one they like best and then add or subtract acid to hit that level to the whole wine, usually in tank before bottling. Have no doubt this works wonders. A Cab at 3.65 pH is nothing at all like the same juice at 3.95. Pinots have been known to do this as well, now and then.

I can say that additions of mega purple to finished wines sold in bottle are wayyyy down the last decade. They are so easy to spot. Very glad about this. I think large scale interventions are actually in decline. Mainly because vineyard management is getting so darned good!

For me, given I both make the wine AND sell it, I prefer to avoid as much changes after fermentation as possible because the sales person in me is not separated from the winemaker person in me. My rule of thumb is, once it is in barrel, unless there is a danger, I try not to tinker. But I have no problem with any kind of nutrient add, acid add, enzyme or water-add... as long as it's before it goes to barrel. Others might also view THOSE things as interfering or manufacturing, and in fact the "natural wine" movement is all about that. But in my opinion, it is NOT possible to make a great Napa Cab at a natural 13.5% alcohol. Anyone who needs that as a requirement should go to Bordeaux. Just make sure it is the Left... and not the Right, Bank. :-P

One last thing.... all these ways to tinker with a wine? Napa gets it ALL from Bordeaux. Whether it is yeast or nutrients or any such thing, French companies have close to a 100% market share in Napa. We got all this from them. One of the big 100-point BDX estates uses sweetspotters and reverse osmosis all the time. One great BDX everyone spends insane money on adds sugar to their ferments every year, whether the vintage needs it or not, because they like the effect on mouthfeel. Napa is just picking up where BDX leaves off. And the critics never know the difference. In fact, they ALL reward the practice and the points, and resulting prices, prove that. Think about it.... why would anyone make all those adjustments unless it paid off?

If I felt the need to do something to save a vintage and stay solvent, I would. No reason to go out of business in the name of a "purity test." But I just don't want to make a HABIT of things, manufacturing finesse and voluptuousness every year. I would prefer to try to gain as much quality in the vineyard and during fermentation and then blending and then call it a day. My own wines are often rugged and sometime angular on release but get better with every passing year (I think :) .) I would rather, hopefully, let time add the finesse. I've had too many highly scoring wines that are best the day they are released and are already losing color at age 7. But hey... wineries are not selling old vintages, are they?

In the end, everyone has to make their own decisions. This is a very hard business and about to get a LOT harder. If I was making 1,500 or 2,500 cases, it might force my hand into making decisions about what to do before releasing the wine, that at 300 cases, I just don't need to. It's one of the reasons I stay so small. Less temptation. But I know how to pull the levers.

Roy, thanks so much for sharing. This context is super helpful. Wish we could get names named, but recognize you can’t do that. Either way, the explanation is much appreciated.
Oy-V3y

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6406 Post by larry schaffer » October 24th, 2020, 5:38 pm

Roy,

Great post indeed - and I hope those on this thread and others truly take note.

First off, an alc number is just that - a number. You do not drink a number - you drink a wine. Sometimes the alcohol is noticable and sometimes it's not, but to me, it's simply wrong to pre-dispose how a wine will 'show' based solely on that. Can a wine over 15% appeal to the AFWE crowd? Possibly not . . .but then again, just because a wine is labeled at 13% dies NOT make it 'old world' in style.

Second, I could not agree more about making any alterations prior to fermentations beginning (ideally), or before it goes to barrel as a last resort. By doing so, these alterations - be it acudnornwater adds especially - truly integrate in a seamless manner in almost every case.

I am a true believer that each wine i produce should be 'transparent' vis a vis variability in the vintage, in the sites I work with, in the varieties I work with, and with regards to my overall winemaking philosophy at that time.

Interesting comments about hyper sorting and lower alcohol levels. That said, if your overall brix are 26.5 in your must after sorting even without raisins, it would be rare to go under 15% unless the yeast strain naturally works at a lower conversion factor than normal. Roy, did the same strain work at the same conversion rate in all of your ferments?

Cheers.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6407 Post by Chris Crutchfield » October 24th, 2020, 5:49 pm

Roy Piper wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:40 pm
G. D y e r wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:12 am

FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..
Re alcohol levels..... 15.0-15.5% is not uncommon at all. But 15.6-16%+ is rare for Cab in Napa, now.
It was a typo in the offer for OG 20. It's actually something like 14.5%.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6408 Post by Kris Patten » October 24th, 2020, 6:20 pm

Eric White wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:27 pm
Kris Patten wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:03 pm
PeterH wrote:
October 23rd, 2020, 9:13 pm
Well, so much for expecting a high end WA Syrah. I'm sure this will be a great deal as a wedding, company picnic, or other event wine.
No way you are going to see Reynvaan, Cayuse (and associated), K Vintners, Gramercy, or Betz in a Negoce label. Outside of them, most WA Syrah is well under $40 so I wouldn't expect to see any WA Syrah over $12 in this project.
Agreed, with the exception of K Vintners and Betz. KV because they produce a huge amount of wine across a wide variety of price points, I could easily see them having excesss. And Betz, only because they've started showing up on discount sites over the past couple years (LastBottle, for example).
K, you are wrong, I speak from selling K and we cannot keep stock.

Please share why you believe otherwise.
ITB

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6409 Post by Eric White » October 24th, 2020, 6:59 pm

Kris Patten wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 6:20 pm
Eric White wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:27 pm
Kris Patten wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:03 pm


No way you are going to see Reynvaan, Cayuse (and associated), K Vintners, Gramercy, or Betz in a Negoce label. Outside of them, most WA Syrah is well under $40 so I wouldn't expect to see any WA Syrah over $12 in this project.
Agreed, with the exception of K Vintners and Betz. KV because they produce a huge amount of wine across a wide variety of price points, I could easily see them having excesss. And Betz, only because they've started showing up on discount sites over the past couple years (LastBottle, for example).
K, you are wrong, I speak from selling K and we cannot keep stock.

Please share why you believe otherwise.
with that approach? Nah, you're clearly not interested in a dialog. Good luck though, you'll need it.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6410 Post by Leonard Maran » October 25th, 2020, 2:27 am

So snarky Eric...

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6411 Post by WilliamRobe'rtH » October 25th, 2020, 5:44 am

I'm still waiting for #5, #15, #18. None have arrived and no shipping labels created. I'm pretty patient but would like some wine so I don't have to order more from Wineaccess to tide me over. I emailed an inquiry and was sent back the schedule going forward which includes #30 and #32 which was supposed to go out last week but has not.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6412 Post by ChrisWolff » October 25th, 2020, 5:52 am

I don’t understand the point of everyone posting their orders that haven’t shipped yet. What are you hoping to accomplish?

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6413 Post by WilliamRobe'rtH » October 25th, 2020, 5:56 am

I really don't understand people that complain about people posting about their very delayed shipments that they bought in July. What are they hoping to accomplish when they could just scroll by?
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6414 Post by Bob Chapman » October 25th, 2020, 5:57 am

The responses so far are certainly of great concern. Some posters suggest they receive wine promptly and others suggest they have not received the same issue number at all? Some of the issue numbers are in the 1-15 range? Those were due months ago. As for our friend who ordered and received “40 cases”, 500 bottles SO FAR is a rather interesting commitment. What are you doing with all that wine?

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6415 Post by Michael Feldman » October 25th, 2020, 6:09 am

Bob Chapman wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 5:57 am
The responses so far are certainly of great concern. Some posters suggest they receive wine promptly and others suggest they have not received the same issue number at all? Some of the issue numbers are in the 1-15 range? Those were due months ago. As for our friend who ordered and received “40 cases”, 500 bottles SO FAR is a rather interesting commitment. What are you doing with all that wine?
Thinking the same thing. Retail? [snort.gif]

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6416 Post by Bob Chapman » October 25th, 2020, 6:15 am

WilliamRobe'rtH wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 5:56 am
I really don't understand people that complain about people posting about their very delayed shipments that they bought in July. What are they hoping to accomplish when they could just scroll by?
Well, for one - no legit business would randomly ship to some, and not others. Secondly, any customer who is promised a purchase by promised date has a legit and legal expectation to get that purchase. Perhaps the fan boy poster would like to send a few million bucks to me and wait foe 6-8 months for a response?

Clearly if wine isn’t being shipped anywhere CLOSE to advertised shipping dates, the ads themselves are intended to be misleading. There was a great deal if effort advertising this opportunity and many respected reviewers went out on a limb.

The first business was taken into receivership because of cash flow issues. This business model was designed to “solve” problems.

These case lots are in the 100’s of cases. How is it possible that some have received a specific issue but others have not?

The business model is advertised this way: CH will keep retains of all lots and issues to sell them for a higher price at a later date. The early “futures buyer” (us) provide operational expenses in return for a “discount” on wine.

We all trust the company ability to choose and judge wine. We also trust we get the product we order and pay for by the promised dates. If some get this product while others still await the SAME product, we have a problem. That problem can quickly accelerate into a larger problem. One would reasonably assume many customers will alert their credit card companies. They will reasonably seek a refund. Maybe that will not occur. If thousands of cases of wine seem undelivered to some, but delivered to others, we certainly have an issue.

I certainly can’t run my business this way, but any of you who wish to post “what’s the problem with you complainers” in my defense, i will gladly send you some samples.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6417 Post by MatthewT » October 25th, 2020, 6:52 am

Bob Chapman wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 6:15 am
WilliamRobe'rtH wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 5:56 am
I really don't understand people that complain about people posting about their very delayed shipments that they bought in July. What are they hoping to accomplish when they could just scroll by?
Well, for one - no legit business would randomly ship to some, and not others. Secondly, any customer who is promised a purchase by promised date has a legit and legal expectation to get that purchase. Perhaps the fan boy poster would like to send a few million bucks to me and wait foe 6-8 months for a response?

Clearly if wine isn’t being shipped anywhere CLOSE to advertised shipping dates, the ads themselves are intended to be misleading. There was a great deal if effort advertising this opportunity and many respected reviewers went out on a limb.

The first business was taken into receivership because of cash flow issues. This business model was designed to “solve” problems.

These case lots are in the 100’s of cases. How is it possible that some have received a specific issue but others have not?

The business model is advertised this way: CH will keep retains of all lots and issues to sell them for a higher price at a later date. The early “futures buyer” (us) provide operational expenses in return for a “discount” on wine.

We all trust the company ability to choose and judge wine. We also trust we get the product we order and pay for by the promised dates. If some get this product while others still await the SAME product, we have a problem. That problem can quickly accelerate into a larger problem. One would reasonably assume many customers will alert their credit card companies. They will reasonably seek a refund. Maybe that will not occur. If thousands of cases of wine seem undelivered to some, but delivered to others, we certainly have an issue.

I certainly can’t run my business this way, but any of you who wish to post “what’s the problem with you complainers” in my defense, i will gladly send you some samples.
He was defending you not criticizing you, lol. He said he doesn't understand why people are complaining about people posting about shipping problems.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6418 Post by WilliamRobe'rtH » October 25th, 2020, 6:52 am

You misunderstand my post. I agree with you Bob. It was aimed at someone else who thinks we shouldn't post our shipping challenges. Fulfillment of our orders is important, which is why I posted that I haven't even received OG#5. I just find it frustrating and know that DN/Cam reads these. I also think a de negoce thread is the perfect place to post shipping errors. I am fairly certain it will get worked out, but at the same time it is information I view as important to others.

I don't view the poster with 40+ cases coming as a fanboy (I have 20). He wants value which has been discussed ad nauseam on this thread (I've read the entire thread). Not sure why you are so angry with someone who bought a bunch of wine. Sounds like someone good to know to me...
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6419 Post by Chr!s G|@rn3r » October 25th, 2020, 7:05 am

I'm not upset about anything just yet as I've received 4 cases of the 8 I've ordered, and the delay actually allowed the weather to cool and it gave me time to get my wine storage organized. That said, I understand the frustration from many here, and agree that this is no way to run a business. If I had to guess, this project got a lot bigger a lot faster than Cam had anticipated, and he just got kind of steamrolled. If that is true, the part that is rather confusing and more frustrating is that instead of taking care of the customer service and operations issues, he just went out and continued to source more wine before any of the issues have been corrected. He should have hired someone or a consulting firm that is great at operations to come in and fix things while he went out to source more wine. If he did, it is not getting fixed fast enough. If he didn't, then again, that is just poor business practice to let your customers deal with your problems without addressing them with a high level of action. It reminds me of what I see on shark tank or the profit when people don't have a single location that operates effectively or efficiently, but still want to open more as fast as they can as if that is somehow a solution to the problem. Get your first location (or in this case, first batch of wine/orders) running properly, and then expand.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6420 Post by Rodrigo B » October 25th, 2020, 7:06 am

With the weather posing a challenge through much of October I’m happy to have my wines “delayed” in shipping. Also, in my eyes, these delays are effectively free short term storage for me since I haven’t had to add capacity at my offsite yet, all positives in my book.

Now if you have concerns over whether or not you’ll even get your wine, I suppose that’s a valid concern, though it’s not one I share.
B r a g a

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6421 Post by Bill Stephenson » October 25th, 2020, 7:55 am

Rodrigo B wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 7:06 am
With the weather posing a challenge through much of October I’m happy to have my wines “delayed” in shipping. Also, in my eyes, these delays are effectively free short term storage for me since I haven’t had to add capacity at my offsite yet, all positives in my book.

Now if you have concerns over whether or not you’ll even get your wine, I suppose that’s a valid concern, though it’s not one I share.
I'm also happy that my wine DIDN'T ship as promised two weeks ago as it was consistently in the high 80's until just a few days ago.
It's not just DN.
I live a mere 2 hours drive from Napa/Sonoma and have had three missed delivery dates from boutique producers using UPS and FedEx.

I'm re-routing everything to the carrier's distribution pickup centers since, as a previous poster stated, I can't work from home everyday especially
if the delivery gets re-scheduled while I'm staring out the window like an anxious prom-date.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6422 Post by ChrisWolff » October 25th, 2020, 8:00 am

WilliamRobe'rtH wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 5:56 am
I really don't understand people that complain about people posting about their very delayed shipments that they bought in July. What are they hoping to accomplish when they could just scroll by?
You can’t just scroll by pages and pages of the same complaints to find the occasional post of value. At that point I might as well punt the whole thread, which I’m thinking is the solution

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6423 Post by Scott Jameson » October 25th, 2020, 8:06 am

ChrisWolff wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 5:52 am
I don’t understand the point of everyone posting their orders that haven’t shipped yet. What are you hoping to accomplish?
One reason it's of interest is that earlier in this thread, people were insisting the wines were being shipped in numerical order, i.e. N.01 would be shipped before N.02 which would be shipped before N.03, and so on. The recent emails from Cam re. shipping tended to not mention these early orders so I was curious if others were still waiting for them to be shipped.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6424 Post by tpetty » October 25th, 2020, 8:12 am

I wonder if his website is working correctly. Still shows 433 cases of #68 available - which is the same thing it showed the other day. Hard to believe that NO ONE has bought a case of Pride cab in the last day or 2.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6425 Post by Dave R. » October 25th, 2020, 8:17 am

Rodrigo B wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 7:06 am
With the weather posing a challenge through much of October I’m happy to have my wines “delayed” in shipping. Also, in my eyes, these delays are effectively free short term storage for me since I haven’t had to add capacity at my offsite yet, all positives in my book.

Now if you have concerns over whether or not you’ll even get your wine, I suppose that’s a valid concern, though it’s not one I share.
Exactly. There is no reason to believe the wine is not coming. And there shouldn’t be any rush to be drinking it now anyway. Although, I do appreciate the “early” tasting notes... more of that, less of the shipping gripes, please. [thankyou.gif] [thankyou.gif]
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6426 Post by MatthewT » October 25th, 2020, 8:19 am

It seems incredibly relevant people posting whether they have or have not received wine, given the shipping issues.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6427 Post by Timothy B a l l a r d » October 25th, 2020, 8:55 am

According to UPS My Choice: Have 9 cases with "Labels Processed" that should ship this week? Hillside Collection (27,28,29), #17 x 2, #40 x 2, #54, and #34 that was to be delivered yesterday, but changed to local UPS Access point as I was meeting another berserker for a wine tasting in Carmel Valley. The change in delivery delayed shipment to Monday for #34. OK fine.
Note almost all "Labels Processed" were completed this past week, so it seems they are being "staged". deNegoce sent me notice Saturday AM about #34 delivery as PROMISED by dN. UPS Ground delivers 6 days a week to handle increased volumes.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6428 Post by Christopher Dunn » October 25th, 2020, 9:10 am

Aleks V wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 5:35 pm
Roy Piper wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:40 pm
G. D y e r wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:12 am

FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..
Re alcohol levels..... 15.0-15.5% is not uncommon at all. But 15.6-16%+ is rare for Cab in Napa, now. Firstly, because most people notice the alcohol at that level and dislike it. Also, because there is only one yeast that can ferment that high commonly used in primary ferments and that is William Selyem "Jacklass Hill" Zin yeast. Most winemakers I know who use that yeast tend to water back to the mid to low 15s, rather than finish over 15.5%, if they pick over 26.5 brix. In addition, with Parker gone, alcohols are slightly trending slightly lower, anyway. Also, they are trending lower due to new optical sorters and new de-stemmers, which remove anything resembling a dimple or raisin. You can easily pick at 26.5 brix now and finish at a natural 14.8%, with no water-add. I did that exact thing with one of my vineyards this vintage. A few years ago you would finish 26.5 brix at 15.9%. I would probably dislike a 16.2% Cab most of the time. Once past 15.3% "real" alcohol (not what it says on the label), Cabs seem hot to me.

De-alcing is more and more common the higher and higher in price you go. One critical Napa darling de-alched routinely for many years. All those 13.5% Cabs? Guessing they were 14-14.5+% naturally and then de-alched. Proof for this can be found in multiple places online, as the former owner/winemaker openly admitted to it. I hear the new winemaker has stopped that process.

I find that the more a winery needs 98-100pts to keep sustainable, the MORE intervention is needed and more often. Interventions are not cheap. The goal for some wineries is to pull out every stop every year to ensure the wines score well. They may not be large changes, but a series of small adjustments, here and there, with none of them large enough on their own to be considered "cheating." The thing is... they work. I see it over and over. I can think of a couple of wines that tinker, with great results, even getting 100pts. I probably should follow suit, frankly, as those wines seem so damned polished upon release. Not doing these things costs me money, no doubt. Critics want extracted, tannic, concentrated wines but at the same time one that has the finesse of a 10-15 year old wine. They allow BDX time to do this in bottle, but not Napa, in a weird double-standard that acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Another method to up the scores is "sweetspotting" the acid levels, either by addition or subtraction. This may be the most common way of hitting a target. Winemakers get a wine and create samples of the pH at 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, 3.7 etc, up to 4.1... figure out which one they like best and then add or subtract acid to hit that level to the whole wine, usually in tank before bottling. Have no doubt this works wonders. A Cab at 3.65 pH is nothing at all like the same juice at 3.95. Pinots have been known to do this as well, now and then.

I can say that additions of mega purple to finished wines sold in bottle are wayyyy down the last decade. They are so easy to spot. Very glad about this. I think large scale interventions are actually in decline. Mainly because vineyard management is getting so darned good!

For me, given I both make the wine AND sell it, I prefer to avoid as much changes after fermentation as possible because the sales person in me is not separated from the winemaker person in me. My rule of thumb is, once it is in barrel, unless there is a danger, I try not to tinker. But I have no problem with any kind of nutrient add, acid add, enzyme or water-add... as long as it's before it goes to barrel. Others might also view THOSE things as interfering or manufacturing, and in fact the "natural wine" movement is all about that. But in my opinion, it is NOT possible to make a great Napa Cab at a natural 13.5% alcohol. Anyone who needs that as a requirement should go to Bordeaux. Just make sure it is the Left... and not the Right, Bank. :-P

One last thing.... all these ways to tinker with a wine? Napa gets it ALL from Bordeaux. Whether it is yeast or nutrients or any such thing, French companies have close to a 100% market share in Napa. We got all this from them. One of the big 100-point BDX estates uses sweetspotters and reverse osmosis all the time. One great BDX everyone spends insane money on adds sugar to their ferments every year, whether the vintage needs it or not, because they like the effect on mouthfeel. Napa is just picking up where BDX leaves off. And the critics never know the difference. In fact, they ALL reward the practice and the points, and resulting prices, prove that. Think about it.... why would anyone make all those adjustments unless it paid off?

If I felt the need to do something to save a vintage and stay solvent, I would. No reason to go out of business in the name of a "purity test." But I just don't want to make a HABIT of things, manufacturing finesse and voluptuousness every year. I would prefer to try to gain as much quality in the vineyard and during fermentation and then blending and then call it a day. My own wines are often rugged and sometime angular on release but get better with every passing year (I think :) .) I would rather, hopefully, let time add the finesse. I've had too many highly scoring wines that are best the day they are released and are already losing color at age 7. But hey... wineries are not selling old vintages, are they?

In the end, everyone has to make their own decisions. This is a very hard business and about to get a LOT harder. If I was making 1,500 or 2,500 cases, it might force my hand into making decisions about what to do before releasing the wine, that at 300 cases, I just don't need to. It's one of the reasons I stay so small. Less temptation. But I know how to pull the levers.

Roy, thanks so much for sharing. This context is super helpful. Wish we could get names named, but recognize you can’t do that. Either way, the explanation is much appreciated.
Excellent post, indeed, Roy. I am glad to know that use of megapurple is declining in the US (or Napa, at any rate). That has been one of my pet peeves. I still still see it, but not as much as in the past.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6429 Post by larry schaffer » October 25th, 2020, 9:37 am

I think it's an interesting point Roy makes about Megapurple, but I wonder if he is only talking about smaller high end producers he is familiar with up in Napa versus larger producers elsewhere? There continues to be a 'bias' towards darker wines versus lighter colored ones, and many mass market favorites continue to be made with an apparent good dollop of residual sugar - so I would see no reason why mega purple would not continue to be used . . . unless they are sourcing better blending materials.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6430 Post by HoosJustinG » October 25th, 2020, 9:53 am

Rodrigo B wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 7:06 am
With the weather posing a challenge through much of October I’m happy to have my wines “delayed” in shipping. Also, in my eyes, these delays are effectively free short term storage for me since I haven’t had to add capacity at my offsite yet, all positives in my book.

Now if you have concerns over whether or not you’ll even get your wine, I suppose that’s a valid concern, though it’s not one I share.
I think those are fair rationalizations, but the concerning thing to me would be the extent to which they’re playing fast and loose with the truth — both when it comes to actual shipping times and their wines being magically heat proof. I think the former is - to some degree - easier to justify under the guise of growing pains of a new business. The latter is ... not. Either way, there’s a pattern developing of being not super careful with language and facts. Assuming there are other aspects of the business that are experiencing growing pains - not just the shipping side - that’s potentially concerning. I also think the response(s) - at least to the heat issue - was objectively less than satisfactory. Everyone will have to judge for themself if shipping snafus are a big deal (and I kinda come down where Rodrigo does on this issue).
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6431 Post by Benjg » October 25th, 2020, 10:03 am

Has anyone gotten so frustrated with the shipping debacle that they’ve thrown up their hands and cancelled their orders? The tone of this thread has gotten much more negative lately and understandably so with expectations not being met. I’m curious to see if a rise in order cancellations would move the needle on the shipping/promised shipping issues. BTW I’ve received 3 cases in the past 3 weeks and am expecting 2 more this week, up through OG #31.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6432 Post by R Scott Hughes » October 25th, 2020, 10:26 am

I have absolutely no concerns about the"shipping issues" and honestly think that they are being way overblown. In fact, because I did exactly what I told myself not to do and opened a bottle of 27 last night, a day after it arrived, I would be perfectly happy if none of the wine that is too young to drink didn't show up for another 6 months.

As for OG 27, I think all of the pieces for a really nice bottle are there, they just need more time to come together. I will try not to open another one for at least a year.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6433 Post by Troy Stark » October 25th, 2020, 12:51 pm

Rodrigo B wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 7:06 am
With the weather posing a challenge through much of October I’m happy to have my wines “delayed” in shipping. Also, in my eyes, these delays are effectively free short term storage for me since I haven’t had to add capacity at my offsite yet, all positives in my book.

Now if you have concerns over whether or not you’ll even get your wine, I suppose that’s a valid concern, though it’s not one I share.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6434 Post by Aleks V » October 25th, 2020, 1:29 pm

Benjg wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 10:03 am
Has anyone gotten so frustrated with the shipping debacle that they’ve thrown up their hands and cancelled their orders? The tone of this thread has gotten much more negative lately and understandably so with expectations not being met. I’m curious to see if a rise in order cancellations would move the needle on the shipping/promised shipping issues. BTW I’ve received 3 cases in the past 3 weeks and am expecting 2 more this week, up through OG #31.
I haven’t cancelled but am certainly not ordering anything else until some of my wine starts arriving and I can taste and see what the QPR looks like.

I’m still waiting on No. 17, which was originally supposed to ship Early Oct, then Oct 12, then on the 19th, now who knows when. Hopefully I’ve kept the dates straight since I have gotten so many different answers. I asked on the status of No 17 on Wednesday and finally got an answer today that it will be shipped “sometime after Oct 26.”

I’m not really worried about the wines not arriving (though it has crossed my mind), but I don’t like the runaround as it reflects poorly on DN’s operations and makes me wonder where else things aren’t operating properly. Communications have been spotty and rushed at best, dishonest at worst, which doesn’t help anything.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6435 Post by David Buck » October 25th, 2020, 1:33 pm

Chris Crutchfield wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 5:49 pm
Roy Piper wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:40 pm
G. D y e r wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:12 am

FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..
Re alcohol levels..... 15.0-15.5% is not uncommon at all. But 15.6-16%+ is rare for Cab in Napa, now.
It was a typo in the offer for OG 20. It's actually something like 14.5%.
We're going to need Roy to whip out his instruments and get an exact reading on OG 20 . Excellent post and thanks Roy. See you learn a few things on this thread [cheers.gif]

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6436 Post by Hank Victor » October 25th, 2020, 1:40 pm

Aleks V wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 1:29 pm
Benjg wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 10:03 am
Has anyone gotten so frustrated with the shipping debacle that they’ve thrown up their hands and cancelled their orders? The tone of this thread has gotten much more negative lately and understandably so with expectations not being met. I’m curious to see if a rise in order cancellations would move the needle on the shipping/promised shipping issues. BTW I’ve received 3 cases in the past 3 weeks and am expecting 2 more this week, up through OG #31.
I haven’t cancelled but am certainly not ordering anything else until some of my wine starts arriving and I can taste and see what the QPR looks like.

I’m still waiting on No. 17, which was originally supposed to ship Early Oct, then Oct 12, then on the 19th, now who knows when. Hopefully I’ve kept the dates straight since I have gotten so many different answers. I asked on the status of No 17 on Wednesday and finally got an answer today that it will be shipped “sometime after Oct 26.”

I’m not really worried about the wines not arriving (though it has crossed my mind), but I don’t like the runaround as it reflects poorly on DN’s operations and makes me wonder where else things aren’t operating properly. Communications have been spotty and rushed at best, dishonest at worst, which doesn’t help anything.
I’m glad you’re getting answers... me and a buddy haven’t gotten a response yet. I’m on the same page. Don’t see placing any more orders until what’s already bought comes in.
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6437 Post by Gray G » October 25th, 2020, 7:39 pm

there must a grape de Negoce site for ITB folks???
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6438 Post by Nate Simon » October 25th, 2020, 9:13 pm

Gray G wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 7:39 pm
there must a grape de Negoce site for ITB folks???
There certainly are sites where growers sell grapes.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6439 Post by Gray G » October 26th, 2020, 5:11 am

Nate Simon wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 9:13 pm
Gray G wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 7:39 pm
there must a grape de Negoce site for ITB folks???
There certainly are sites where growers sell grapes.
of course, but in this fashion???
my friends call me Gary, so much time, so little wine, Albanista, K Vinters rocks! MCK, Cattle King, love Gri3v3 Family wines Double Eagle baby! flavors please, non-religious freedom :) egalitarian, non-socialist, non-ITB, paid subscriber of online chat, Going Beserk everyday! "life's not black and white but black and grey"- Graham Greene

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6440 Post by Nate Simon » October 26th, 2020, 6:53 am

Gray G wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 5:11 am
Nate Simon wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 9:13 pm
Gray G wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 7:39 pm
there must a grape de Negoce site for ITB folks???
There certainly are sites where growers sell grapes.
of course, but in this fashion???
If you mean, “Hey I got 2 tons of Napa Valley Merlot but I can’t tell you who grew it,” not as far as I’ve heard.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6441 Post by Kyle S chaffer » October 26th, 2020, 6:56 am

Aleks V wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 1:29 pm
Benjg wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 10:03 am
Has anyone gotten so frustrated with the shipping debacle that they’ve thrown up their hands and cancelled their orders? The tone of this thread has gotten much more negative lately and understandably so with expectations not being met. I’m curious to see if a rise in order cancellations would move the needle on the shipping/promised shipping issues. BTW I’ve received 3 cases in the past 3 weeks and am expecting 2 more this week, up through OG #31.
I haven’t cancelled but am certainly not ordering anything else until some of my wine starts arriving and I can taste and see what the QPR looks like.

I'm in this same boat. I wonder if a bunch of us are and that's why the latest offers haven't flown so fast. I'm 7 cases in at this point and any more feels foolish until I confirm they are coming, arrive in good shape, and offer decent value.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6442 Post by larry schaffer » October 26th, 2020, 7:47 am

Nate Simon wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 6:53 am
Gray G wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 5:11 am
Nate Simon wrote:
October 25th, 2020, 9:13 pm


There certainly are sites where growers sell grapes.
of course, but in this fashion???
If you mean, “Hey I got 2 tons of Napa Valley Merlot but I can’t tell you who grew it,” not as far as I’ve heard.
I have heard of cases where wineries are able to purchase discounted fruit from specific vineyards but are told they cannot specify the Vineyard on the label or in marketing materials. As far as bulk grape or wine sites, though - no, you are given details of the Vineyard if a deal is arranged, though again, there can be NDAs in rare cases.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6443 Post by Andy.Cohen » October 26th, 2020, 9:15 am

Roy Piper wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 4:40 pm
G. D y e r wrote:
October 20th, 2020, 8:12 am

FYI - OG 20 is even higher - 15.9%....lol..
Re alcohol levels..... 15.0-15.5% is not uncommon at all. But 15.6-16%+ is rare for Cab in Napa, now. Firstly, because most people notice the alcohol at that level and dislike it. Also, because there is only one yeast that can ferment that high commonly used in primary ferments and that is William Selyem "Jacklass Hill" Zin yeast. Most winemakers I know who use that yeast tend to water back to the mid to low 15s, rather than finish over 15.5%, if they pick over 26.5 brix. In addition, with Parker gone, alcohols are slightly trending slightly lower, anyway. Also, they are trending lower due to new optical sorters and new de-stemmers, which remove anything resembling a dimple or raisin. You can easily pick at 26.5 brix now and finish at a natural 14.8%, with no water-add. I did that exact thing with one of my vineyards this vintage. A few years ago you would finish 26.5 brix at 15.9%. I would probably dislike a 16.2% Cab most of the time. Once past 15.3% "real" alcohol (not what it says on the label), Cabs seem hot to me.

De-alcing is more and more common the higher and higher in price you go. One critical Napa darling de-alched routinely for many years. All those 13.5% Cabs? Guessing they were 14-14.5+% naturally and then de-alched. Proof for this can be found in multiple places online, as the former owner/winemaker openly admitted to it. I hear the new winemaker has stopped that process.

I find that the more a winery needs 98-100pts to keep sustainable, the MORE intervention is needed and more often. Interventions are not cheap. The goal for some wineries is to pull out every stop every year to ensure the wines score well. They may not be large changes, but a series of small adjustments, here and there, with none of them large enough on their own to be considered "cheating." The thing is... they work. I see it over and over. I can think of a couple of wines that tinker, with great results, even getting 100pts. I probably should follow suit, frankly, as those wines seem so damned polished upon release. Not doing these things costs me money, no doubt. Critics want extracted, tannic, concentrated wines but at the same time one that has the finesse of a 10-15 year old wine. They allow BDX time to do this in bottle, but not Napa, in a weird double-standard that acts as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Another method to up the scores is "sweetspotting" the acid levels, either by addition or subtraction. This may be the most common way of hitting a target. Winemakers get a wine and create samples of the pH at 3.4, 3.5, 3.6, 3.7 etc, up to 4.1... figure out which one they like best and then add or subtract acid to hit that level to the whole wine, usually in tank before bottling. Have no doubt this works wonders. A Cab at 3.65 pH is nothing at all like the same juice at 3.95. Pinots have been known to do this as well, now and then.

I can say that additions of mega purple to finished wines sold in bottle are wayyyy down the last decade. They are so easy to spot. Very glad about this. I think large scale interventions are actually in decline. Mainly because vineyard management is getting so darned good!

For me, given I both make the wine AND sell it, I prefer to avoid as much changes after fermentation as possible because the sales person in me is not separated from the winemaker person in me. My rule of thumb is, once it is in barrel, unless there is a danger, I try not to tinker. But I have no problem with any kind of nutrient add, acid add, enzyme or water-add... as long as it's before it goes to barrel. Others might also view THOSE things as interfering or manufacturing, and in fact the "natural wine" movement is all about that. But in my opinion, it is NOT possible to make a great Napa Cab at a natural 13.5% alcohol. Anyone who needs that as a requirement should go to Bordeaux. Just make sure it is the Left... and not the Right, Bank. :-P

One last thing.... all these ways to tinker with a wine? Napa gets it ALL from Bordeaux. Whether it is yeast or nutrients or any such thing, French companies have close to a 100% market share in Napa. We got all this from them. One of the big 100-point BDX estates uses sweetspotters and reverse osmosis all the time. One great BDX everyone spends insane money on adds sugar to their ferments every year, whether the vintage needs it or not, because they like the effect on mouthfeel. Napa is just picking up where BDX leaves off. And the critics never know the difference. In fact, they ALL reward the practice and the points, and resulting prices, prove that. Think about it.... why would anyone make all those adjustments unless it paid off?

If I felt the need to do something to save a vintage and stay solvent, I would. No reason to go out of business in the name of a "purity test." But I just don't want to make a HABIT of things, manufacturing finesse and voluptuousness every year. I would prefer to try to gain as much quality in the vineyard and during fermentation and then blending and then call it a day. My own wines are often rugged and sometime angular on release but get better with every passing year (I think :) .) I would rather, hopefully, let time add the finesse. I've had too many highly scoring wines that are best the day they are released and are already losing color at age 7. But hey... wineries are not selling old vintages, are they?

In the end, everyone has to make their own decisions. This is a very hard business and about to get a LOT harder. If I was making 1,500 or 2,500 cases, it might force my hand into making decisions about what to do before releasing the wine, that at 300 cases, I just don't need to. It's one of the reasons I stay so small. Less temptation. But I know how to pull the levers.

Roy, as always, thanks for your insight and perspective. The idea that people dont manipulate things everywhere in some form or fashion is quaint and perhaps people dont realize how lucky we are with the general quality of the wine we enjoy now.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6444 Post by MatthewT » October 26th, 2020, 10:57 am

In case anyone is curious just how cheap some bulk juice can go for...the most recent Becheur Old Vine juice sot him $1/bottle to source!

https://becheur.com/product/18ovmv/
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6445 Post by Mark Morrissette » October 26th, 2020, 11:11 am

MatthewT wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 10:57 am
In case anyone is curious just how cheap some bulk juice can go for...the most recent Becheur Old Vine juice sot him $1/bottle to source!

https://becheur.com/product/18ovmv/
I posted this over on the Becheur thread, but I am thinking the source is for the Mourvèdre is Evangelho Vineyard ("in the intersection of the San Joaquin and Sacramento Rivers") and then producer is likely Bedrock. Less sure on the producer than the Vineyard, but regardless, probably some pretty fine juice...

https://medium.com/@masonbalistreri/is- ... eb777c38d2

Cool video on the history of the Evangelho Vineyard from Bedrock:
https://www.bedrockwineco.com/the-study ... ho-part-1/

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Paul Flynn
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6446 Post by Paul Flynn » October 26th, 2020, 11:16 am

First case arrived today: Spring Mountain Cabernet. I see 5 more queued up on UPS my choice.
Paul

“I have to have the most expensive thing, not because it’s the most expensive but because it costs more”

Cordelia Chase

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larry schaffer
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Re: de Negoce offer

#6447 Post by larry schaffer » October 26th, 2020, 11:30 am

MatthewT wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 10:57 am
In case anyone is curious just how cheap some bulk juice can go for...the most recent Becheur Old Vine juice sot him $1/bottle to source!

https://becheur.com/product/18ovmv/
$5/gal is unusually cheap - and in the current bulk market, not gonna be had unless there are 'issues' with the lot (that is MOT to say that there are issues here at all).

Cheers
larry schaffer
tercero wines

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6448 Post by Michael Martin » October 26th, 2020, 12:29 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 7:47 am
Nate Simon wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 6:53 am
Gray G wrote:
October 26th, 2020, 5:11 am


of course, but in this fashion???
If you mean, “Hey I got 2 tons of Napa Valley Merlot but I can’t tell you who grew it,” not as far as I’ve heard.
I have heard of cases where wineries are able to purchase discounted fruit from specific vineyards but are told they cannot specify the Vineyard on the label or in marketing materials. As far as bulk grape or wine sites, though - no, you are given details of the Vineyard if a deal is arranged, though again, there can be NDAs in rare cases.

Cheers.
A good example is Bedrock’s Belle du Jour. Spectacular wine, but they couldn’t disclose the vineyard on the label or otherwise.

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6449 Post by L Harris » October 26th, 2020, 1:50 pm

N. 66 is back up (1 case only it seems)
https://www.denegoce.com/products/og-n- ... a3a4&_ss=r

I believe best guess so far was it was Clos du Val
https://www.closduval.com/product/2016- ... ignon--SVS
L u k e

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Re: de Negoce offer

#6450 Post by Chris Crutchfield » October 26th, 2020, 1:58 pm

No quantities available yet, but is this the next offer? OG N.98 2019 Walla Walla Viognier
I've often complained about overwrought Viognier's that plagued California in the 1990's and early 2000's, heavy on apricot jam but with little structure or reward. Since then things have gotten considerably better in California but it seems pretty clear to me that Washington State is ready to give CA a run for its money (of course, the French, broadly speaking, still produce the best Viognier but that's a story for another time). Today's release comes to us from one of Walla Walla's most reputable Viognier producers and this is the first of two Viognier's I purchased from them. Already in shiners, this selection is the more elegant and brighter of the two (Sauvignon Blanc lovers take note) and will be drinking beautifully by the time it gets to you. This wine normally retails in the mid-20's and seems to have pretty reliable 89-91 pt. Spectator scores in solid vintages like 2019 (though some reds got hit by the September frosts). Another damn fine value at $8/bottle, $96/case.

Pale yellow in the glass with bright citrus aromas and a kiss of apricot surrounded spicy florals top notes and honeycomb bass notes that round out the what is an uplifted and fresh bouquet. Honeydew and pear are viscous on the palate but dance through the wine on beam of lightly-honeyed minerality. The finish is long and pristine with citrus, apricot notes and honeycomb notes resonating throughout.

100% barrel fermented in neutral french oak
100% Viognier

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