Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

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Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#1 Post by eweininger » May 11th, 2020, 6:14 pm

Drinking a bottle of Schloss Lieser WS kabinett 2018 tonight which, I must say, is really nice. This led me to ponder the fact that, while I’ve had a number JJ Prum wines from this vineyard—ranging from very good to outstanding—my experiences with other producers (generally one offs) has been hit and miss. Actually, mostly miss. I know I’ve sampled wines from Kerpen, Schaefer, and Molitor, at the least, though I haven’t kept details like vintage or my exact reaction; but none of them have grabbed me.

Anyway, I know there are folks here who have a great deal of experience with Mosel wines, so I thought I’d ask for learned opinions: outside of Prum, who makes the best wines from the WS site? And is this across the pradikat range or do you think that certain producers excel at particular levels?

Related question: I vaguely remember hearing that the boundaries of the WS were expanded significantly at some point (maybe the 1960s or 1970s?), basically to enable other producers to capitalize on JJ Prum’s reputation. Is this correct? If so, do people distinguish between the original plots and the expanded ones?

Thanks for any input. And apologies if there’s been a thread on this in the past; I’d appreciate a link if so.
Last edited by eweininger on May 11th, 2020, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#2 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 11th, 2020, 6:29 pm

Selbach-Oster makes some lovely Wehlener Sonnenuhr wines. Which pradikat depends on the vintage, as they don’t have the range of holdings of Prüm.

Willi Schaefer’s Sonnenuhr is hit and miss for me. Their plot is tiny, so not a lot of flexibility.

Kerpen isn’t in the same league as a producer, but the wines are good and good value.

Only had a few Lieser bottlings. Good stuff. We’ll see over time.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#3 Post by Kris Patten » May 11th, 2020, 6:41 pm

I think higher Pradikat wines shine in WS, Spatlese to GK Auslese, not necessarily Kabinett.

Spatlese, I enjoy Loosen, Auslese and GK Molitor, but don't drink Auslese very often so limited exposure.
Last edited by Kris Patten on May 11th, 2020, 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#4 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 11th, 2020, 6:48 pm

Depends on the holdings.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#5 Post by RichardFlack » May 11th, 2020, 6:51 pm

Asked and answered as they say.
JJ Prum, especially if you are very patient.

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#6 Post by David K o l i n » May 11th, 2020, 6:54 pm

RichardFlack wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 6:51 pm
Asked and answered as they say.
JJ Prum, especially if you are very patient.
Agree

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#7 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 11th, 2020, 6:56 pm

The OP specifically asked “outside of Prüm.”
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#8 Post by David K o l i n » May 11th, 2020, 6:59 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 6:56 pm
The OP specifically asked “outside of Prüm.”
Well, I’m going to switch my vote to “What Bu3ker says”

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#9 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 11th, 2020, 7:01 pm

FWIW, it was a 1995 Selbach Oster Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Auslese that turned me into a German Riesling fanatic.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#10 Post by RichardFlack » May 11th, 2020, 7:14 pm

Oops. Sorry read it too fast.
Suggest altering the title eg. “Who ELSE makes ....”

Obvious alternates are Pauly-Bergeeiler, Molitor, Loosen.

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#11 Post by John Morris » May 11th, 2020, 7:17 pm

Max. Ferd. Richter also makes a WS, but I’ve had only a couple a long time ago.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#12 Post by J. Rock » May 11th, 2020, 7:31 pm

I haven't had enough of this vineyard to make a fair comparison, but the 2018 Schloss Lieser WS Spatlese is great. Lieser is one of my very favorite producers though, and I don't know if I'd ever had one of their wines that I didn't love.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#13 Post by Russell Faulkner » May 11th, 2020, 7:54 pm

It’s a big vineyard (40Ha) and quite varied (South and Southwest facing) with 85m between the top and bottom vines. As implied above you can’t expect the same things from very small holdings (Schaefer is 0.2Ha).

The only producer I have in any quantity apart from Prum is Lieser and Max Ferd Richter, but so few bottles when compared to Prum as to be irrelevant really.

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#14 Post by eweininger » May 11th, 2020, 8:03 pm

Richard—title adjusted, per suggestion.

David—thanks for this. Selbach Oster makes so many from so many sites (or so it feels) I have trouble keeping track of them. I’m pretty sure I’ve never encountered one of their WS bottlings, but I’ll definitely be on the lookout for them.

Jordan—my experiences with Lieser (limited to kab and spat from the Niederberg Helden) have been great. This kab was my first taste of their WS, and I’m pretty impressed; I’d certainly seek it out in the future.

Maybe I’m reading the room wrong, but it sounds like there’s plenty of producers folks are happy enough to drink, but other than SO (and maybe Lieser) not really any must haves. Fair?
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#15 Post by Kris Patten » May 11th, 2020, 8:17 pm

eweininger wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 8:03 pm
Richard—title adjusted, per suggestion.

David—thanks for this. Selbach Oster makes so many from so many sites (or so it feels) I have trouble keeping track of them. I’m pretty sure I’ve never encountered one of their WS bottlings, but I’ll definitely be on the lookout for them.

Jordan—my experiences with Lieser (limited to kab and spat from the Niederberg Helden) have been great. This kab was my first taste of their WS, and I’m pretty impressed; I’d certainly seek it out in the future.

Maybe I’m reading the room wrong, but it sounds like there’s plenty of producers folks are happy enough to drink, but other than SO (and maybe Lieser) not really any must haves. Fair?
If Coche Dury Corton Charlemagne and Jadot Corton Charlemagne were about the same price and availability, would you buy Jadot? JJ Prum is not much of a premium, so why drink others if you can get Prum?

As I said prior, I haven't had enough but Molitor seems on par with Prum at Auslese and GK or *** levels. Spatlese, I think Prum wins hands down, stomp up a couple more bucks.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#16 Post by Andrew K. » May 11th, 2020, 8:24 pm

WS is a beautiful place. Nothing like driving across the bridge with the top down late in the afternoon of a beautiful late summer day right before harvest. Pull over and pick a few grapes for a snack.

There are most definitely better areas of this vineyard. Some are quite flat and others towards the West and near the top are much more sloped and ideal. Selbach-Oster may have multiple plots but the main one I saw was much more in the less ideal East and flat portion headed more towards Graach. Prum has the best holdings from the prime areas. Dr Loosen has some in a few areas, and I love their wine, but their wine doesn't have the same longevity as Prum.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#17 Post by eweininger » May 11th, 2020, 8:56 pm

Kris Patten wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 8:17 pm
If Coche Dury Corton Charlemagne and Jadot Corton Charlemagne were about the same price and availability, would you buy Jadot? JJ Prum is not much of a premium, so why drink others if you can get Prum?
But the difference, of course, is that a bottle of WS spatlese costs $30-$50, as opposed ot whatever those wines go for. So even someone with my meager budget doesn’t need to worry about wringing out every last micro meter on the quality scale if there might be some interesting site expression or winemaking to be found by casting a wide net.

But that said, other than the aforementioned SO and Lieser, I’m not hearing much along those lines. So loading up on Prum sounds like the way to go.

Let me add, though, that the Molitor recommendation is one I’ll definitely follow up on. I’ve been kind of confused about molitor, tbh. The reputation seems stellar, while the bottles I’ve opened haven’t been that impressive. But I’ve just sampled a few spatleses and kabinetts, so I’m probably looking in the wrong part of the lineup.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#18 Post by Gabe Berk » May 11th, 2020, 9:14 pm

Big fan of Loosen.

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#19 Post by Kris Patten » May 11th, 2020, 9:37 pm

eweininger wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 8:56 pm
Kris Patten wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 8:17 pm
If Coche Dury Corton Charlemagne and Jadot Corton Charlemagne were about the same price and availability, would you buy Jadot? JJ Prum is not much of a premium, so why drink others if you can get Prum?
But the difference, of course, is that a bottle of WS spatlese costs $30-$50, as opposed ot whatever those wines go for. So even someone with my meager budget doesn’t need to worry about wringing out every last micro meter on the quality scale if there might be some interesting site expression or winemaking to be found by casting a wide net.

But that said, other than the aforementioned SO and Lieser, I’m not hearing much along those lines. So loading up on Prum sounds like the way to go.

Let me add, though, that the Molitor recommendation is one I’ll definitely follow up on. I’ve been kind of confused about molitor, tbh. The reputation seems stellar, while the bottles I’ve opened haven’t been that impressive. But I’ve just sampled a few spatleses and kabinetts, so I’m probably looking in the wrong part of the lineup.
As I mentioned up thread, I enjoy Loosen Spatlese from WS, when it comes to Kabinett, I prefer Graacher Himmelreich, or frankly could live solely on Oberhauser Leistenberg Kabinett from Donnhoff outside of the Mosel, runner up to Schafer Frohlich Bockenauer Felseneck Kabinett...I enjoy energy in Kabinett vs. richness.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#20 Post by IlkkaL » May 11th, 2020, 11:11 pm

I haven't done any really comprehensive WS tasting across different producers and prädikats but have tried a healthy number of wines from this vineyard from different addresses over the years. Many make good quality but obviously styles vary a lot and even if Prüm itself is not expensive per se some other producers' wines have felt practically free of charge considering the quality (think Pauly-Bergweiler's WS Auslese at 12€/75cl a few years ago). Another thing to consider is that while Prüm's wines mostly really require sufficient time sideways many other producers' wines drink really well from the get-go. As such I would say that unless you can buy mature Prüm some of the other producers might be interesting simply for the sake that you can enjoy them right away and even if the quality is not objectively at Prüm's level it can still be exceptionally high in many cases. I know that a couple of months ago when I drank Kerpen's 2005 WS Beerenauslese * (one star) I most certainly was not wishing in my mind that I had Prüm in the glass instead.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#21 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » May 12th, 2020, 4:19 am

I haven’t tasted any other producers’ Wehlener Sonnenuhr wines with age on them except JJ Prum, which have been magical. Will continue buying those forever.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#22 Post by Robert Dentice » May 12th, 2020, 4:19 am

I would give Markus Molitor another try. They make quite a few wines from WS.

Also Loosen makes a GG, I don't love it but have only tried it at trade tastings. Reviewers rate it highly and it is a bit geeky to try a GG from WS, Schloss Lieser and a few others also make GGs.

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#23 Post by Howard Cooper » May 12th, 2020, 4:57 am

The only Wehlener Sonnenuhrs I have are from Prum and Schloss Lieser and by far the most I have come from Prum. Prum has the best section of WS (around the sundial) and makes great wines from there. I like other producers who make wines in WS but frankly if I want a wine from Selbach I am much more likely to buy one from Zelting where his best parcels are and if I want one from Loosen (not really a favorite) I would buy one from Erden or Urzig. In this case, however, I think, like JJ Prum, Loosen is a descendent of the SA Prum estate that got broken up. https://sapruem.com/open.php?id=15

I have more wines from Schloss Lieser from other vineyards but bought a few from WS to try and because I like Schloss Lieser's wines so much. I have not opened any yet.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#24 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 12th, 2020, 5:05 am

Andrew K. wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 8:24 pm
Selbach-Oster may have multiple plots but the main one I saw was much more in the less ideal East and flat portion headed more towards
When the vineyards around Wehlen and Zeltingen were being "reorganized" there was some horse trading between Prum and Selbach. Selbach obtained some prime land in the Zeltinger Sonnenuhr, while Prum picked up some Wehlener Sonnenuhr.

Which then brings me around to the point of not overlooking the Zeltinger Sonnenuhr, which produces wonderful wines. The Selbach 'Rotlay' bottling is amazing, every single year.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#25 Post by dvansteenderen » May 12th, 2020, 5:20 am

Off course also a big fan of J.J. Prüm's Wehlener Sonnenuhr.

And another vote for Schloss Lieser! Disclaimer: I import and sell these in the Netherlands...Insane p/q-ratio in my biased opinion.

Willi Schaefer third I think. However his Graacher Domprobst wines are better! But that's not the question now.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr?

#26 Post by John Morris » May 12th, 2020, 5:46 am

Russell Faulkner wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 7:54 pm
It’s a big vineyard (40Ha) and quite varied (South and Southwest facing) with 85m between the top and bottom vines. As implied above you can’t expect the same things from very small holdings (Schaefer is 0.2Ha).

The only producer I have in any quantity apart from Prum is Lieser and Max Ferd Richter, but so few bottles when compared to Prum as to be irrelevant really.
Yes, sort of the Clos Vougeot of the Mosel, but with much greater variation in altitude and orientation.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#27 Post by Howard Cooper » May 12th, 2020, 5:47 am

dvansteenderen wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 5:20 am
Off course also a big fan of J.J. Prüm's Wehlener Sonnenuhr.

And another vote for Schloss Lieser! Disclaimer: I import and sell these in the Netherlands...Insane p/q-ratio in my biased opinion.

Willi Schaefer third I think. However his Graacher Domprobst wines are better! But that's not the question now.
I have had a number of wines from Schaefer over the years but I am not sure whether I have had any Wehlener Sonnenuhr from him. I primarily (exclusively?) have bought Graacher Domprobst and Himmelreich.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#28 Post by eweininger » May 12th, 2020, 7:31 am

Thanks for all the input. It's both helpful and and a lot of fun to read.

In addition to Molitor and Selbach, I'll make a point of sampling some Loosen in the near future. I know they're pretty easy to turn up. Not a producer I've been overwhelmed by in the past, but it's been a long time since I opened one.

As far as Willi Schaefer goes, the only WS I've had is the 2007 spatlese. (Admittedly, not the ideal vintage.) I've been more impressed by his Himmelreich and (especially) Domprost botllings when I've sampled those. It sounds like David B. and some others have a similar view, presumably with more experience behind it.

The Clos Vougeot analogy seems pretty apt. Upthread, Russell F. mentioned that the site is 40 Ha. My sense is that this is absolutely huge by Mosel standards? Which returns me to the question of whether there was an expansion at some point in the past carried out in order to capitalize on the reputation cultivated by JJ Prum.

As far as Lieser goes--drinking a new release WS kab is what initially triggered my questions about the site. In Cellartracker, i only see recent vintages (2010 onward). So is this a new site for Haag? The one i tried was outstanding for such a young wine; I'd happily continue adding them to my cellar.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#29 Post by eweininger » May 12th, 2020, 7:40 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 5:05 am
Which then brings me around to the point of not overlooking the Zeltinger Sonnenuhr, which produces wonderful wines. The Selbach 'Rotlay' bottling is amazing, every single year.
I have some 2010 Rotlay that I'm waiting on (along with a bunch of 2009 Schmitt). I think I opened one shortly after i got them, which turned out to be a complete mistake, so I'm trying to be patient.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#30 Post by Howard Cooper » May 12th, 2020, 8:19 am

eweininger wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 7:31 am
Thanks for all the input. It's both helpful and and a lot of fun to read.

In addition to Molitor and Selbach, I'll make a point of sampling some Loosen in the near future. I know they're pretty easy to turn up. Not a producer I've been overwhelmed by in the past, but it's been a long time since I opened one.

As far as Willi Schaefer goes, the only WS I've had is the 2007 spatlese. (Admittedly, not the ideal vintage.) I've been more impressed by his Himmelreich and (especially) Domprost botllings when I've sampled those. It sounds like David B. and some others have a similar view, presumably with more experience behind it.

The Clos Vougeot analogy seems pretty apt. Upthread, Russell F. mentioned that the site is 40 Ha. My sense is that this is absolutely huge by Mosel standards? Which returns me to the question of whether there was an expansion at some point in the past carried out in order to capitalize on the reputation cultivated by JJ Prum.

As far as Lieser goes--drinking a new release WS kab is what initially triggered my questions about the site. In Cellartracker, i only see recent vintages (2010 onward). So is this a new site for Haag? The one i tried was outstanding for such a young wine; I'd happily continue adding them to my cellar.
1971. And, it wasn’t just WS. There was a huge revision to the entire body of German wine laws. See below.

https://www.larscarlberg.com/nineteen-seventy-one/
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#31 Post by J. Rock » May 12th, 2020, 8:40 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 5:05 am
Andrew K. wrote:
May 11th, 2020, 8:24 pm
Selbach-Oster may have multiple plots but the main one I saw was much more in the less ideal East and flat portion headed more towards
Which then brings me around to the point of not overlooking the Zeltinger Sonnenuhr, which produces wonderful wines. The Selbach 'Rotlay' bottling is amazing, every single year.
A 1998 Markus Molitor Zeltinger Sonnenuhr Riesling Eiswein I had last November was stunning (and probably the best Riesling and one of the best wines I've had so far). Ever since, I've had a great appreciation for Zeltinger Sonnenuhr.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#32 Post by Jason L Jones » May 12th, 2020, 8:49 am

Dr Loosen has three WS GG bottlings: regular, alte reben, and a reserve that's on lees for 2 years. I like all three but tend to prefer the reserve.

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#33 Post by eweininger » May 12th, 2020, 9:11 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 8:19 am
1971. And, it wasn’t just WS. There was a huge revision to the entire body of German wine laws. See below.

https://www.larscarlberg.com/nineteen-seventy-one/
Thanks for this, Howard. It's a great essay. The story is simultaneously fascinating and kind of banal in its recounting of bureaucratic minutiae.

For those who don't have the time to go through it, here's the paragraph that covers vineyard boundaries in WS (and elsewhere):

"Another major change initiated by the 1971 Wine Law concerns vineyards. Whereas prior to the institution of the new law, wine villages might have had a dozen or more individual vineyards or Einzellagen, with the new law the numbers were reduced greatly. The law required that vineyards be at least five hectares in size, although a good number of exceptions were approved. Some of the individual sites whose names were eliminated were consolidated with sites whose names were retained, while others became part of vineyards with new names. In theory, the new scheme seemed to make understanding labels and purchasing wine simpler for consumers. But simplicity came with a price. Some critics noted that because distinguished sites such as Scharzhofberger or Wehlener Sonnenuhr were expanded, their distinctive qualities were not necessarily found throughout the new sites. In a few cases, the opposite may have been true; fine sites whose names were eliminated with the new law may actually have enhanced their new homes."
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#34 Post by Jay Miller » May 12th, 2020, 9:26 am

eweininger wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 7:40 am
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 5:05 am
Which then brings me around to the point of not overlooking the Zeltinger Sonnenuhr, which produces wonderful wines. The Selbach 'Rotlay' bottling is amazing, every single year.
I have some 2010 Rotlay that I'm waiting on (along with a bunch of 2009 Schmitt). I think I opened one shortly after i got them, which turned out to be a complete mistake, so I'm trying to be patient.
2009 Rotlay was pretty well shut down as of late last year as well. I'm another huge fan of the bottling.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#35 Post by Marshall Manning » May 12th, 2020, 9:52 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 5:05 am
Which then brings me around to the point of not overlooking the Zeltinger Sonnenuhr, which produces wonderful wines. The Selbach 'Rotlay' bottling is amazing, every single year.
David, any thoughts on how the 2004 would be doing now? I just have 2 bottles, so wondered if it was in the zone.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#36 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 12th, 2020, 10:09 am

I really like 2004 German Rieslings now. I might consider waiting another 3-5 for a wine like the Rotlay, but I am sure it would provide a lot of pleasure.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#37 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » May 12th, 2020, 12:14 pm

Hmm, lots of Schloss Lieser responses yet I have no WS bottlings of theirs specifically. Might need to rectify this.
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2001 Joh. Jos. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#38 Post by Russell Faulkner » May 12th, 2020, 12:20 pm

I think it’s critical to not look at the Mosel from a Burgundian viewpoint. It just doesn’t work the same way.

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#39 Post by eweininger » May 12th, 2020, 1:28 pm

Russell Faulkner wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 12:20 pm
I think it’s critical to not look at the Mosel from a Burgundian viewpoint. It just doesn’t work the same way.
That's a very helpful observation. I do think that's the model i had in the back of my mind.

I'd be curious to hear whether other Mosel fanatics think that it is or isn't feasible to try and identify site/vineyard characteristics that transcend producer and vintage, as people are wont to do with Burgundy.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#40 Post by John Morris » May 12th, 2020, 2:27 pm

Russell Faulkner wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 12:20 pm
I think it’s critical to not look at the Mosel from a Burgundian viewpoint. It just doesn’t work the same way.
Please explain.

My Clos Vougeot analogy seems apt here: Both CV and WS are fairly large, prestige appellations where the quality of individual plots varies greatly.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#41 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 12th, 2020, 2:28 pm

There are some characteristics that are typical for given sites, but they are not universal for all bottlings from the site. Urziger Wurzgarten often has a touch of strawberry. I often find a lemon cream note in Wehlener Sonnenuhr. Erdner Treppchen consistently shows an herbal touch for me. There are others, but I bet different folks would take issue with my thoughts.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#42 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 12th, 2020, 2:29 pm

John Morris wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:27 pm
Russell Faulkner wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 12:20 pm
I think it’s critical to not look at the Mosel from a Burgundian viewpoint. It just doesn’t work the same way.
Please explain.

My Clos Vougeot analogy seems apt here: Both CV and WS are fairly large, prestige appellations where the quality of individual plots varies greatly.
First off you don't pay Clos Vougeot pricing for Wehlener Sonnenuhr. Secondly there are very different types of wine made from different plots of the WS vineyard. Clos Vougeot makes one thing.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#43 Post by John Morris » May 12th, 2020, 2:49 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:29 pm
John Morris wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:27 pm
Russell Faulkner wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 12:20 pm
I think it’s critical to not look at the Mosel from a Burgundian viewpoint. It just doesn’t work the same way.
Please explain.

My Clos Vougeot analogy seems apt here: Both CV and WS are fairly large, prestige appellations where the quality of individual plots varies greatly.
First off you don't pay Clos Vougeot pricing for Wehlener Sonnenuhr. Secondly there are very different types of wine made from different plots of the WS vineyard. Clos Vougeot makes one thing.
So what? How are those germain to the topic? I was responding to Russell's point that the vineyard is very large, with more and less desirable parts -- something CV is famous for -- so the analogy seems quite close.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#44 Post by Eric Ifune » May 12th, 2020, 2:52 pm

S.A.Prum makes some good versions. Part of the original estate which got split up among the family.

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#45 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 12th, 2020, 3:43 pm

John Morris wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:49 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:29 pm
John Morris wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:27 pm

Please explain.

My Clos Vougeot analogy seems apt here: Both CV and WS are fairly large, prestige appellations where the quality of individual plots varies greatly.
First off you don't pay Clos Vougeot pricing for Wehlener Sonnenuhr. Secondly there are very different types of wine made from different plots of the WS vineyard. Clos Vougeot makes one thing.
So what? How are those germain to the topic? I was responding to Russell's point that the vineyard is very large, with more and less desirable parts -- something CV is famous for -- so the analogy seems quite close.
More or less desirable for what? Kabinett? Auslese?
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#46 Post by G. Bienstock » May 12th, 2020, 4:48 pm

Eric Ifune wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:52 pm
S.A.Prum makes some good versions. Part of the original estate which got split up among the family.
The 05's from PC were good for the money but not stunning.
Last edited by G. Bienstock on May 12th, 2020, 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#47 Post by John Morris » May 12th, 2020, 6:10 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 3:43 pm
John Morris wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:49 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 2:29 pm


First off you don't pay Clos Vougeot pricing for Wehlener Sonnenuhr. Secondly there are very different types of wine made from different plots of the WS vineyard. Clos Vougeot makes one thing.
So what? How are those germain to the topic? I was responding to Russell's point that the vineyard is very large, with more and less desirable parts -- something CV is famous for -- so the analogy seems quite close.
More or less desirable for what? Kabinett? Auslese?
Do you contend that all parts of WS are excellent, just for different levels of wine?
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#48 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 12th, 2020, 6:13 pm

I contend that none of it is bad, and that each area has different strengths. I can more reliably get good Wehlener Sonnenuhr by throwing a dart than Piesporter Goldtropfchen.
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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#49 Post by maureen nelson » May 12th, 2020, 6:28 pm

Can’t believe no one mentioned Weins-Prum. Until recently the best producer of WS wines not named Prum.

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Re: Who Makes the Best Wehlener Sonnenuhr (besides JJ Prum)?

#50 Post by Kris Patten » May 12th, 2020, 6:48 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 12th, 2020, 6:13 pm
I contend that none of it is bad, and that each area has different strengths. I can more reliably get good Wehlener Sonnenuhr by throwing a dart than Piesporter Goldtropfchen.
Agreed, some are just better than others. There are no wines in WS I wouldn't drink, there are definitely some in Clos Vougeot, especially when price comes into play.
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