Large Burg Houses

I did a bunch of searching and its possible its just hard to find the right combination of keywords. Anyways, a couple of threads recently have kind of danced around this topic but never addressed it specifically.

My basic question is: do some of these large houses in Burgundy (Faiveley, Bouchard, Drouhin, Jadot) present the value that the lower pricing of their bottlings compared to others of the same terroir seem to represent? I have seen several mentioned recently that quality at Faiveley and Bouchard has increased recently, and there were recent threads about which bottlings at Drouhin are domaine bottlings, and I would say these topics are within limits here. would also say on limits to discuss specific bottlings or vintages from these producers that represent good/poor values.

Looking for guidance from the wealth of burg experience on the board!

My view: the negociants (misleading term b/c most of their best wines are domaine fruit) provide superlative value these days, and the quality for some has increased notably in recent years. I particularly love the direction that Faiveley has gone recently (mainly reds but whites too), and Jadot has been killing it recently in both reds and whites. Bouchard makes some of the best-value whites out there (I don’t buy Bouchard reds), and Drouhin is great but prices for the upper-level wines have gotten very high. My personal sweet-spot (i.e., best-value) wines at the big houses include the following (I’ve excluded great but very pricey wines like Drouhin ‘Petits Monts’):

Faiveley: Gevrey ‘Cazetiers’ and ‘Combe Aux Moines,’ Chambolle ‘Fuees’ and ‘Combe d’Orveau,’ NSG ‘Les Saint Georges,’ Mercurey ‘Close des Myglands,’ Corton ‘Clos des Cortons,’ Latricieres-Chambertin

Jadot: Corton ‘Pougets,’ Pommard ‘Rugiens,’ NSG ‘Boudots,’ Gevrey ‘Clos Saint Jacques’ and ‘Estournelles,’ Chambertin Clos-de-Beze (not cheap but a good value relative to other Beze), Corton Charlemagne

Drouhin: Beaune ‘Clos des Mouches’ (rouge and blanc), Chambolle 1er, Vosne 1er, Beaune ‘Greves’

Bouchard: Corton Charlemagne, Meursault ‘Perrieres’ and ‘Genevrieres’

thanks for this entire answer! thats exactly the kind of info I knew this site had in its knowledge bank. In my searching I saw the comment on Faiveley and Bouchard both improving dramatically in recent vintages and was curious how recent that comment seems to be referring to? I saw a comment in an article for Faiveley recently that seemed to indicate Faiveley was maybe around 2012?

You mentioned you don’t buy Bouchard reds, do you think they are just not in the same quality range? Enfant Jesus seems to be everywhere, but the price is typically one where I know there are other Beaune 1ers out there in a similar range from producers I have more experience with (Montille Beaune Perrieres and Greves, Dominique Lafon Beaune Greves, for example).

thanks again!

I believe but am not certain that the first “new-Faiveley” vintage was '07. Whereas Faiveley historically was stern and structured, “new Faiveley” is much more generous and textured (some would say polished) in youth – but I’m cautiously optimistic they’ll age beautifully. Last week, I opened an '09 Faiveley Chambolle ‘Combe d’Orveau’ that was flat-out gorgeous.

Re Bouchard, there’s no particular reason I don’t buy their reds – I enjoy them but the oak can be heavy-handed. I don’t buy them mainly because one just can’t buy everything. The Enfant Jesus is a nice wine (with a long history), but if I’m buying Beaune I usually prefer Drouhin’s ‘Clos des Mouches’ (one of my favorite wines in all of Burgundy) or, for more value, Drouhin’s Beaune ‘Greves’ (leaves a similar impression to the Mouches) or any number of Jadot’s value-priced-but-ageworthy 1ers. I do like Montille’s Beaune wines.

I love old faiveley. The style is rustic but many turn out to be excellent wines with enough time. Combe d orveau is my favorite of their wines and it ages very well. That said they’ve been inconsistent. I’ve had some very poor examples of other faiveley wines, especially from the 90s. I haven’t had many post 2007 wines from them.

I’m less enamored of Jadot reds. Ive had some decent examples, 96 bonnes mares was a good wine, but in general I’ve never liked them enough to repurchase any.

I haven’t had many whites from either producer.

Bouchard the whites are first class. Drouhin I don’t have much experience with.

ive also seen a lot of chatter about Jadot being a little bit more hit or miss.

sounds like maybe I need to get in on Faiveley and Bouchard whites for sure.

I think Bouchard is currently the most consistent of the big houses - I thought their 2017 range at the Paulee tasting was really good, and some of their wines are consistently very good as well without being expensive, especially for whites - their Meursaults in particular. The L’Enfant Jesus is a very consistent wine.

Drouhin’s whites can be really broad/big, especially in less structured vintages. So their 17s are fat, while their 14s are really good. It think they do better reds than whites, especially since their reds are often a fraction of the price for some of the better vineyards than “non-negociants”. I think their chambolle 1ers are a particular value.

Jadot to me is extremely hit or miss. I liked their efforts in 2016 a lot, especially in Gevrey (and bought some for the first time in a long time), but other Jadot I’ve had in recent years has been…less great, let’s say. I’ve yet to have a “thrilling” Jadot wine, even from a great vineyard (though a 1990 Musigny came close).

To me Faiveley currently makes wines for a California palate. I’ve had people tell me that their reds have gotten a lot better, so I tried a 13 Fuees recently - it was a hugely extracted wine and the oak was absolutely overpowering. That said, if you want a very big oaky style of Pinot, Faiveley can be good value. The whites remain an oaky mess.

There are multiple eras of Faiveley wines - not just old and new. They have changed a good bit each time a new generation takes has taken over running the winery (although the changes cannot in my experience be dated from the exact times when a new generation has taken over). Some of my earlier Burgundies were Faiveleys from the era of around 1971-1978. These were wonderful wines. I have also enjoyed wines made by the current generation - run by Erwan Faiveley. I like less well some of the wines made by Erwan’s father in the 1990s and early 2000s. History of the Faiveley family

Someone else might be able to give better dates than I can regarding changes in style.

Of the other big houses, I find the reds of Jadot to be the most muscular, the wines of Bouchard to be rich and plump, and the wines of Drouhin to be the most elegant. They all can make excellent wines. Some of the best values than be in Beaune premier crus and in Faiveley’s Mercury. Envoyer has recently had some very good sales on Jadot Beaune premier crus.

I love the whites by Bouchard and Drouhin and the whites by Bouchard can be really great values - Meursault Perrieres for less than $100 for example.

I have enjoyed some Jadot whites from the barrel but have been scared away from buying these wines because of premox. I understand that Jadot now uses DIAM and has a better track record more recently on premox and so I have dipped my toes in buying a few 2017 whites.

​”The vintages tasted today are 2006 and before that but they don’t represent what Domaine Faiveley is today, although it was the first vintage I did after taking over. The wines [today] are quite different than what they were before”
​”since 2012 we have exactly what we want with the style and concentration"

Not my experience with the '16 Cazetiers. None of the 6 notes (huge sample set!) mention oak or extraction.

Regarding the 13 Faiveley Fuees. 13’ still would’ve been early in the process for new Faiveley and a super challenging vintage to farm, so not totally surprising. I remember trying the 16’ Faiveley Fuees just after release and it was a brilliant 16’

Interesting, I find it exactly the other way. The 17 whites from Drouhin are quite fat and round, and a 13 Criots opened a few months ago for a pre-Paulee dinner was a massive dense wine that might not be ready for another decade at least. Bouchard has been more precise in recent years in my experience.

May just be differences in our palates.

I’ve had only a handful of post 07 Faiveley but oak and California didn’t come to mind. Great texture and density, much more approachable than the hard pre-Erwan era.

I think the Bouchard reds are excellent and represent good value in today’s market. As someone said above the style is “rich and plump” but not in an over extracted or cloying way. More a way that consistently assures you of a well rounded wine with good underlying material. I think the Bouchard Le Corton red is a bargain for the quality — they used to be even more so but even today you can occasionally find them under $100

Is that possibly different for whites and reds?

My issue wasn’t with the farming! I wasn’t thrilled with the wines at Paulee either. Several people whose palates I respect have told me to try the reds (not the whites), but when I have, it’s not been a positive experience. Other people’s views may vary, of course! Lots of different styles in Burgundy.

It would be hard for them to be less approachable. I served that 13 Fuees blind to two people last week (using a modified Fu method) and everyone immediately texted how oaky it was. By day two all that was left was oak. The other bottle served blind with it was a 14 Felettig, which isn’t an oak averse producer, but it was far more balanced.

Maybe. I like the Drouhin reds quite a bit.

I think the “rich and plump” descriptor is about Bouchard reds much more than the whites, the style is quite different. But it’s not meant in a bad way!