Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

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William Kelley
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#51 Post by William Kelley » June 17th, 2020, 9:07 am

J. Ashourian wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 4:49 am
Basically every bottle of Merchant bottled old bordeaux and Burgundy. Berry Bros, Vandermeulen, D. Sanders, etc... Ive had a bunch and maybe think its a sanitary issue in the bottling process. Most of them smell bad.
I have had some great merchant-bottled wines. In the UK, the Grants of St James and the Army & Navy Stores (who bottled 1945 de Vogüé Musigny among other things) can be really good. The BBR bottlings always seem a bit soft and round to me, and I disagree with people who claim the BBR 1961 Palmer is better than the Château bottling.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#52 Post by Paul Jaouen » June 17th, 2020, 9:08 am

R. Somerville wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 1:03 pm
Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande 1982.

Call me a philistine, but 3 random bottles from the same case were thoroughly underwhelming for all the hype of '82.
In multiple 82 tastings, PL always finished in the top 3 or 4. An incredible wine!
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#53 Post by Brian Tuite » June 17th, 2020, 9:33 am

Marcassin Chardonnay, just didn’t do
anything for me but increase the oak level in my blood.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#54 Post by R. Somerville » June 17th, 2020, 9:43 am

Paul Jaouen wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:08 am
R. Somerville wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 1:03 pm
Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande 1982.

Call me a philistine, but 3 random bottles from the same case were thoroughly underwhelming for all the hype of '82.
In multiple 82 tastings, PL always finished in the top 3 or 4. An incredible wine!
Well, the case I was drinking from was anything but at 20 years + on 3 separate occasions - that's why it was sold. Also, don't tell me that 3 random bottles were all problematic and the rest would've been fine. The wine, like all my wines, are stored from merchant receipt in an ancient bellow ground cellar that never moves either side of 16 degrees C.

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#55 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » June 17th, 2020, 9:54 am

William Kelley wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:00 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 8:42 am
That said, 13.64 for abv in the modern world is, at best, mid-range for alcohol. And the vast majority of wines produced in Australia, California, Washington, much of Italy, and Spain are routinely much higher abvs. Even most Austrian Riesling of the Smaragd weight is probably over that.
Sure, but this was not the modern world! This was when e.g. 1990 Ducru Beaucaillou was 12.1% and the 1990 La Mission 12.0%, after chaptalization. It doesn't seem so high today, but it was definitely an outlier back then—just as the wine is proving to be a stylistic outlier in the history of La Chapelle.

The pH is also really low given that, for example, Robert Michel's 1990 Cornas came out at over pH 4 in the 1990 vintage. Admittedly, Jaboulet destemmed and Robert Michel did not, but still....
Agreed! I think you also recently mentioned that the 82 Mouton was 11.5%. It’s just a reminder that global warming/modern viticulture/picking very ripe fruit is creating a vastly different base line for what we see in wines today.

I started tasting with wines in the 1980s, and some in the 70s, and the feel and weight of those wines was drastically different (in my opinion) but flavors weren’t typically green. I think the 1990(considered a warm vintage at the time) wines you mentioned have alcohols that would easily be classed as low alcohol today. And in many regions almost impossible to achieve, and many winemakers would consider the fruit lesser for coming in at the Brix they would have harvested at. I am speculating so this is a musing rather than a statement, but what a dramatic shift. My first vintage in the Willamette Valley was 2002, and while we consider ourselves cool climate, my wines that year were close to 14%.

In the past two decades(almost) as I was pushing for lower alcohols(without using water or reverse osmosis to achieve it) I have had push back from most of my growers on choosing farming techniques that challenge the plants in order to lower Brix levels but still have time for the fruit to ripen. But less than 30 years ago, this is the norm for the greatest regions in France(the ones we all claim to have been inspired by).

And if Jaboulet destemmed and Robert Michel did not 3.38 vs 4.0 seems well within the shift stems would cause.

It’s great to have your knowledge on the boards, and I definitely appreciate you sharing.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#56 Post by William Kelley » June 17th, 2020, 10:17 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:54 am

Agreed! I think you also recently mentioned that the 82 Mouton was 11.5%. It’s just a reminder that global warming/modern viticulture/picking very ripe fruit is creating a vastly different base line for what we see in wines today.

I started tasting with wines in the 1980s, and some in the 70s, and the feel and weight of those wines was drastically different (in my opinion) but flavors weren’t typically green. I think the 1990(considered a warm vintage at the time) wines you mentioned have alcohols that would easily be classed as low alcohol today. And in many regions almost impossible to achieve, and many winemakers would consider the fruit lesser for coming in at the Brix they would have harvested at. I am speculating so this is a musing rather than a statement, but what a dramatic shift. My first vintage in the Willamette Valley was 2002, and while we consider ourselves cool climate, my wines that year were close to 14%.

In the past two decades(almost) as I was pushing for lower alcohols(without using water or reverse osmosis to achieve it) I have had push back from most of my growers on choosing farming techniques that challenge the plants in order to lower Brix levels but still have time for the fruit to ripen. But less than 30 years ago, this is the norm for the greatest regions in France(the ones we all claim to have been inspired by).

And if Jaboulet destemmed and Robert Michel did not 3.38 vs 4.0 seems well within the shift stems would cause.

It’s great to have your knowledge on the boards, and I definitely appreciate you sharing.
Thanks for the kind words!

And yes, I agree, it's a huge shift. If the late 1950s, 1960s and 1970s in France were defined by big shifts in viticultural and winemaking practices (e.g. average yield at top Médoc properties before 1961 was below 20 hl/ha; by the 1970s, it was 40 hl/ha), then the turn of the millennium was arguably defined more by changing tastes.

What is so interesting about Burgundy in the last few years is that people are really rethinking viticulture quite radically for the first time in several generations.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#57 Post by Nick Christie » June 17th, 2020, 10:27 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:54 am

Agreed! I think you also recently mentioned that the 82 Mouton was 11.5%. It’s just a reminder that global warming/modern viticulture/picking very ripe fruit is creating a vastly different base line for what we see in wines today.

....

In the past two decades(almost) as I was pushing for lower alcohols(without using water or reverse osmosis to achieve it) I have had push back from most of my growers on choosing farming techniques that challenge the plants in order to lower Brix levels but still have time for the fruit to ripen. But less than 30 years ago, this is the norm for the greatest regions in France(the ones we all claim to have been inspired by).

It’s great to have your knowledge on the boards, and I definitely appreciate you sharing.
I co-sign what Marcus said, William. And I also am very fascinated by his point on how to push for lower alcohols with modern techniques. Boy, is it a dream of mine to one day taste 'new' Californian wines that truly echo the legendary 1970s, particularly with lower alcohol.

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#58 Post by Nick Christie » June 17th, 2020, 10:37 am

William Kelley wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:04 am
julianseersmartin wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 7:24 pm
A lot of 1982 BDX are pretty boring these days. Long been overpriced and overvalued.
An interesting point, and until recently I might have agreed with you, but last year I bought a bunch of 1982 BDX that had never moved from a cold cellar in Alsace, and it made me think that many disappointing 1982s are that way because they have travelled too much. I'm increasingly convinced that the reputation of the vintage meant that it was commoditized and traded all over the world, to the detriment of the wines. From my cellar in France, the Ducru Beaucaillou I have still tastes around a decade from full maturity! And even the glorious Pichon Lalande, which several commentators say is on the downslope, is nowhere near any kind of decline.
As I was born in 1982, my father bought many cases on Futures and they haven't moved from North Carolina since they arrived. I've found them delightful these last few years. I have now drunk the Calon Segur, Leoville Barton, and (via the kindness of Kelly Walker) a Trotanoy in the past 3 months and I have found them all to be full of energy.

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#59 Post by Marshall Manning » June 17th, 2020, 10:39 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:54 am
Agreed! I think you also recently mentioned that the 82 Mouton was 11.5%. It’s just a reminder that global warming/modern viticulture/picking very ripe fruit is creating a vastly different base line for what we see in wines today.

I started tasting with wines in the 1980s, and some in the 70s, and the feel and weight of those wines was drastically different (in my opinion) but flavors weren’t typically green. I think the 1990(considered a warm vintage at the time) wines you mentioned have alcohols that would easily be classed as low alcohol today. And in many regions almost impossible to achieve, and many winemakers would consider the fruit lesser for coming in at the Brix they would have harvested at. I am speculating so this is a musing rather than a statement, but what a dramatic shift. My first vintage in the Willamette Valley was 2002, and while we consider ourselves cool climate, my wines that year were close to 14%.

In the past two decades(almost) as I was pushing for lower alcohols(without using water or reverse osmosis to achieve it) I have had push back from most of my growers on choosing farming techniques that challenge the plants in order to lower Brix levels but still have time for the fruit to ripen. But less than 30 years ago, this is the norm for the greatest regions in France(the ones we all claim to have been inspired by).

And if Jaboulet destemmed and Robert Michel did not 3.38 vs 4.0 seems well within the shift stems would cause.

It’s great to have your knowledge on the boards, and I definitely appreciate you sharing.
Marcus or William...any thoughts on the conversion rate of modern yeasts versus older/native yeasts causing at least some of the increase in alcohols? Assuming vignerons want to make lower alcohol wines, do yeasts hinder them much?
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#60 Post by Jeff_M. » June 17th, 2020, 10:42 am

Had an 82' Margaux at a wine dinner in Hong Kong last year and it was off. I was totally bummed out but we made up for it with other great wines that night.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#61 Post by William Kelley » June 17th, 2020, 11:38 am

Marshall Manning wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 10:39 am
Marcus or William...any thoughts on the conversion rate of modern yeasts versus older/native yeasts causing at least some of the increase in alcohols? Assuming vignerons want to make lower alcohol wines, do yeasts hinder them much?
I don't think that's so important, especially as even producers that don't inoculate are seeing similarly higher abvs than 30 years ago. Factors I would highlight would be:

- the choice to pick riper fruit
- the legacy of clones geared to produce large volumes and high sugar, which accumulate sugar rapidly in a warming climate and all the more rapidly with yields declining due to vine age or producer choice
- more sorting, so fewer marginally ripe grapes to bring down the average potential alcohol
- closed fermentation tanks as opposed to open-tops
- the use of concentrators

To look at Bordeaux with broad brush strokes, there was a viticultural revolution that took off precipitously with the massive replantings that followed the 1956 frost: lower vine densities adapted for mechanization, more productive rootstocks and clones, and more intensive use of agrochemicals (with herbicide use superseding cultivating the soils at many addresses by the 60s). The result was yields that doubled or tripled (but importantly with the same sugar levels as before) compared to what was achieved in the 1950s by the 1970s, and even though there are still plenty of very nice Bordeaux, it would be hard to say that more than a handful of wines made in that decade are fit to stand alongside the best wines of the 50s or before. By the end of the 1980s, vintages began to get a bit riper on average, and producers tried waiting longer to bring a bit more flesh and character to the vines; but the farming was still geared towards producing historically large volumes; and towards meeting the historical challenge of getting enough sugar rather than the emerging challenge of having too much. And that problem only got more acute in the 2000s. That's how we get from 11.0%, chaptalized to 11.5 or 12%, to natural alcohols of 14.5 in just a few decades. Or at least, that's my interpretation.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#62 Post by Bruce Krug » June 17th, 2020, 12:41 pm

98 Beaucastel Hommage in 2015. It was so sweet and sherry like that I could hardly drink it. Actually poured half the bottle down the drain. Major bummer for me.

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#63 Post by R. Somerville » June 17th, 2020, 12:49 pm

William Kelley wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 11:38 am
Marshall Manning wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 10:39 am
Marcus or William...any thoughts on the conversion rate of modern yeasts versus older/native yeasts causing at least some of the increase in alcohols? Assuming vignerons want to make lower alcohol wines, do yeasts hinder them much?
I don't think that's so important, especially as even producers that don't inoculate are seeing similarly higher abvs than 30 years ago. Factors I would highlight would be:

- the choice to pick riper fruit
- the legacy of clones geared to produce large volumes and high sugar, which accumulate sugar rapidly in a warming climate and all the more rapidly with yields declining due to vine age or producer choice
- more sorting, so fewer marginally ripe grapes to bring down the average potential alcohol
- closed fermentation tanks as opposed to open-tops
- the use of concentrators

To look at Bordeaux with broad brush strokes, there was a viticultural revolution that took off precipitously with the massive replantings that followed the 1956 frost: lower vine densities adapted for mechanization, more productive rootstocks and clones, and more intensive use of agrochemicals (with herbicide use superseding cultivating the soils at many addresses by the 60s). The result was yields that doubled or tripled (but importantly with the same sugar levels as before) compared to what was achieved in the 1950s by the 1970s, and even though there are still plenty of very nice Bordeaux, it would be hard to say that more than a handful of wines made in that decade are fit to stand alongside the best wines of the 50s or before. By the end of the 1980s, vintages began to get a bit riper on average, and producers tried waiting longer to bring a bit more flesh and character to the vines; but the farming was still geared towards producing historically large volumes; and towards meeting the historical challenge of getting enough sugar rather than the emerging challenge of having too much. And that problem only got more acute in the 2000s. That's how we get from 11.0%, chaptalized to 11.5 or 12%, to natural alcohols of 14.5 in just a few decades. Or at least, that's my interpretation.

Wise words and spot on in my humble opinion.

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#64 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 17th, 2020, 1:31 pm

William Kelley wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:07 am
J. Ashourian wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 4:49 am
Basically every bottle of Merchant bottled old bordeaux and Burgundy. Berry Bros, Vandermeulen, D. Sanders, etc... Ive had a bunch and maybe think its a sanitary issue in the bottling process. Most of them smell bad.
I have had some great merchant-bottled wines. In the UK, the Grants of St James and the Army & Navy Stores (who bottled 1945 de Vogüé Musigny among other things) can be really good. The BBR bottlings always seem a bit soft and round to me, and I disagree with people who claim the BBR 1961 Palmer is better than the Château bottling.
I have some Belgian merchant bottled Lafleur Petrus 1947. Acquired from a great merchant whom I trust totally, post Hardy, pre Rudy, about twenty years ago. The labels are horrible, and I’ve never been able to make out fully the merchant but the chateau and vintage are clear. There is no way I could or would want to sell the wine; so I am stuck trying to drink them.

I am not too concerned; I have opened five bottles from the case with four being stellar, and one over the hill. One bottle broke but it seemed like the good stuff, but the glass seemed more fragile than the others, and it cracked with minimal handling.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#65 Post by Nick Christie » June 17th, 2020, 2:10 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 1:31 pm
I have some Belgian merchant bottled Lafleur Petrus 1947. Acquired from a great merchant whom I trust totally, post Hardy, pre Rudy, about twenty years ago. The labels are horrible, and I’ve never been able to make out fully the merchant but the chateau and vintage are clear. There is no way I could or would want to sell the wine; so I am stuck trying to drink them.
Key Question: I hear the cautious drudgery in your plaintive post. Is there anyone in your wine group you'd like me to fight for your entertainment on a future occasion with said '47 Lafleur Patrus? Just, you know, to keep the ambiance similar as in tastings past. Think on it, Mark [training.gif] .

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#66 Post by Howard Cooper » June 17th, 2020, 2:38 pm

William Kelley wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 10:17 am


What is so interesting about Burgundy in the last few years is that people are really rethinking viticulture quite radically for the first time in several generations.
I have loved your posts (and pictures) on this subject and it really deserves a full thread. For example, what are the last few years? I would have thought this started in the 80s and 90s.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#67 Post by alan weinberg » June 17th, 2020, 3:00 pm

learned about the need always to have a backup when I hand carried an 85 Henri Jayer Echezeaux to a tasting. It was the most corked wine I’ve ever had. Evidently that particular bottling is now known for a high corked rate. I still shed tears.

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#68 Post by Mark Mason » June 17th, 2020, 3:01 pm

I remember the hype of 1989 Lafite very well as I was working in a wine shop then and this was my first crazy expensive bottle of wine I ever bought at $79. I still have it and maybe wish I had gone for Haut Brion.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#69 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » June 17th, 2020, 7:46 pm

William Kelley wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 11:38 am
Marshall Manning wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 10:39 am
Marcus or William...any thoughts on the conversion rate of modern yeasts versus older/native yeasts causing at least some of the increase in alcohols? Assuming vignerons want to make lower alcohol wines, do yeasts hinder them much?
I don't think that's so important, especially as even producers that don't inoculate are seeing similarly higher abvs than 30 years ago. Factors I would highlight would be:

- the choice to pick riper fruit
- the legacy of clones geared to produce large volumes and high sugar, which accumulate sugar rapidly in a warming climate and all the more rapidly with yields declining due to vine age or producer choice
- more sorting, so fewer marginally ripe grapes to bring down the average potential alcohol
- closed fermentation tanks as opposed to open-tops
- the use of concentrators

To look at Bordeaux with broad brush strokes, there was a viticultural revolution that took off precipitously with the massive replantings that followed the 1956 frost: lower vine densities adapted for mechanization, more productive rootstocks and clones, and more intensive use of agrochemicals (with herbicide use superseding cultivating the soils at many addresses by the 60s). The result was yields that doubled or tripled (but importantly with the same sugar levels as before) compared to what was achieved in the 1950s by the 1970s, and even though there are still plenty of very nice Bordeaux, it would be hard to say that more than a handful of wines made in that decade are fit to stand alongside the best wines of the 50s or before. By the end of the 1980s, vintages began to get a bit riper on average, and producers tried waiting longer to bring a bit more flesh and character to the vines; but the farming was still geared towards producing historically large volumes; and towards meeting the historical challenge of getting enough sugar rather than the emerging challenge of having too much. And that problem only got more acute in the 2000s. That's how we get from 11.0%, chaptalized to 11.5 or 12%, to natural alcohols of 14.5 in just a few decades. Or at least, that's my interpretation.
I am in agreement here.

Outside of 2002, the majority of my red wines are fermented without inoculation of any kind. I think you gain a small inefficiency as some early fermentation is done by a range of non-saccharomyces organisms. But it’s still a minimal difference.

Also, it should be pointed out that most commercial yeast originate in vineyards and are simply isolated in the lab. I did experiment with a commercial yeast that was isolated from Heiligenstein in some Pinot Gris and Riesling ferments a few years ago just to see how it would turn out.

Honestly, no one mentions this but the elevation of alcohol through evaporation in dry, above ground, air conditioned facilities is probably a bigger impact(as much as .5 degrees of alcohol every 6 months).
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#70 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » June 17th, 2020, 7:50 pm

Nick Christie wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 2:10 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 1:31 pm
I have some Belgian merchant bottled Lafleur Petrus 1947. Acquired from a great merchant whom I trust totally, post Hardy, pre Rudy, about twenty years ago. The labels are horrible, and I’ve never been able to make out fully the merchant but the chateau and vintage are clear. There is no way I could or would want to sell the wine; so I am stuck trying to drink them.
Key Question: I hear the cautious drudgery in your plaintive post. Is there anyone in your wine group you'd like me to fight for your entertainment on a future occasion with said '47 Lafleur Patrus? Just, you know, to keep the ambiance similar as in tastings past. Think on it, Mark [training.gif] .
I’ll cosign with you on this one.

Happy to do some pushing, shoving, and general ruckus making with you Nick...after the ‘47 Lafleur is tasted.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#71 Post by Ramon C » June 17th, 2020, 7:55 pm

1983 Ch. Margaux

3 times and none impressed nor were close to the high expectations they came with.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#72 Post by Craig G » June 17th, 2020, 8:41 pm

Ramon C wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 7:55 pm
1983 Ch. Margaux

3 times and none impressed nor were close to the high expectations they came with.
LOL, I guess this qualifies as the most disappointing great wine I’ve never had. Back around 2005 I had a boss in a startup who was really into wine and liked to drink with customers. He was arranging a dinner with a customer who was a friend of his and wanted to serve two bottles of 83 Margaux, but he only had one. He asked me if I had one and I did (just one). He then asked if he could use my bottle and replace it for me. I gave him mine and for months after he told me he had my replacement on the way. Finally he was fired and that was the end of it. I keep hoping he’ll show up one day with my Margaux :-)
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#73 Post by Geoff F. » June 17th, 2020, 8:54 pm

Bonneau du Martray Corton Charlemagne (I forget the vintage - 2015 or 2016 maybe?) - the nose was reminiscent of baked beans, so it may have been a flawed bottle
2009 Domaine Dujac Charmes-Chambertin - this was an $80 Coravin-by-the-glass pour at RN74 Seattle. It was good, it just wasn't $80/glass good.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#74 Post by Nick Christie » June 17th, 2020, 9:02 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 7:50 pm
Nick Christie wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 2:10 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 1:31 pm
I have some Belgian merchant bottled Lafleur Petrus 1947. Acquired from a great merchant whom I trust totally, post Hardy, pre Rudy, about twenty years ago. The labels are horrible, and I’ve never been able to make out fully the merchant but the chateau and vintage are clear. There is no way I could or would want to sell the wine; so I am stuck trying to drink them.
Key Question: I hear the cautious drudgery in your plaintive post. Is there anyone in your wine group you'd like me to fight for your entertainment on a future occasion with said '47 Lafleur Patrus? Just, you know, to keep the ambiance similar as in tastings past. Think on it, Mark [training.gif] .
I’ll cosign with you on this one.

Happy to do some pushing, shoving, and general ruckus making with you Nick...after the ‘47 Lafleur is tasted.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#75 Post by Wes Barton » June 17th, 2020, 10:28 pm

William Kelley wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 11:38 am
Marshall Manning wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 10:39 am
Marcus or William...any thoughts on the conversion rate of modern yeasts versus older/native yeasts causing at least some of the increase in alcohols? Assuming vignerons want to make lower alcohol wines, do yeasts hinder them much?
I don't think that's so important, especially as even producers that don't inoculate are seeing similarly higher abvs than 30 years ago. Factors I would highlight would be:

- the choice to pick riper fruit
- the legacy of clones geared to produce large volumes and high sugar, which accumulate sugar rapidly in a warming climate and all the more rapidly with yields declining due to vine age or producer choice
- more sorting, so fewer marginally ripe grapes to bring down the average potential alcohol
- closed fermentation tanks as opposed to open-tops
- the use of concentrators

To look at Bordeaux with broad brush strokes, there was a viticultural revolution that took off precipitously with the massive replantings that followed the 1956 frost: lower vine densities adapted for mechanization, more productive rootstocks and clones, and more intensive use of agrochemicals (with herbicide use superseding cultivating the soils at many addresses by the 60s). The result was yields that doubled or tripled (but importantly with the same sugar levels as before) compared to what was achieved in the 1950s by the 1970s, and even though there are still plenty of very nice Bordeaux, it would be hard to say that more than a handful of wines made in that decade are fit to stand alongside the best wines of the 50s or before. By the end of the 1980s, vintages began to get a bit riper on average, and producers tried waiting longer to bring a bit more flesh and character to the vines; but the farming was still geared towards producing historically large volumes; and towards meeting the historical challenge of getting enough sugar rather than the emerging challenge of having too much. And that problem only got more acute in the 2000s. That's how we get from 11.0%, chaptalized to 11.5 or 12%, to natural alcohols of 14.5 in just a few decades. Or at least, that's my interpretation.
If isolated strains are around, they'll find their way in to a ferm. If they can find a point where they're able to capitalize and take over (for a phase, at least), they will. If you don't inoculate, you are starting practically zero s. cerevisiae on the grapes (zero to about one out of every one million cells). Not on the grapes, plentiful on human hands and plenty of other things. And, if you do inoculate, other strains get in, so you can't just assume what you added completed the job.

A couple more:

- Rootstock is another factor influencing sugar production.
- Leaf viruses inhibit photosynthesis to some degree, which is the vines' production of sugar. The move to eliminate these diseased vines has increased the brix for the same level of ripeness.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#76 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 18th, 2020, 2:47 am

Nick Christie wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:02 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 7:50 pm
Nick Christie wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 2:10 pm


Key Question: I hear the cautious drudgery in your plaintive post. Is there anyone in your wine group you'd like me to fight for your entertainment on a future occasion with said '47 Lafleur Patrus? Just, you know, to keep the ambiance similar as in tastings past. Think on it, Mark [training.gif] .
I’ll cosign with you on this one.

Happy to do some pushing, shoving, and general ruckus making with you Nick...after the ‘47 Lafleur is tasted.
A love it when a plan comes together...

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Tempting as this all sounds, I think fisticuffs at wine events has been suspended and social distancing rules. There is no fun in that; certainly not worth the LP 1947.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#77 Post by John O' » June 18th, 2020, 3:12 am

1973 Chateau Mouton Rothschild. My folks had a liquor store and were told this bottle would be worth a lot some day because of the Picasso label. Wrapped in foil and left in the basement for 30 years, moved and stored for another 10 years or so. Storage temps were too high.
Pretty much cooked.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#78 Post by Jay Opperman » June 18th, 2020, 3:49 am

1982 Leoville Las Cases
All Masseto
1983 Margaux
2003 Roty Charmes
The Leoville and Margaux never hit the heights that I expected and had many of each over 30 years.
Roty is hard As nails.
I guess Masseto is Too big for me...no nuance at all.Had at lease 6 vintages.

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#79 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 18th, 2020, 4:03 am

William Kelley wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 11:38 am
Marshall Manning wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 10:39 am
Marcus or William...any thoughts on the conversion rate of modern yeasts versus older/native yeasts causing at least some of the increase in alcohols? Assuming vignerons want to make lower alcohol wines, do yeasts hinder them much?
I don't think that's so important, especially as even producers that don't inoculate are seeing similarly higher abvs than 30 years ago. Factors I would highlight would be:

- the choice to pick riper fruit
- the legacy of clones geared to produce large volumes and high sugar, which accumulate sugar rapidly in a warming climate and all the more rapidly with yields declining due to vine age or producer choice
- more sorting, so fewer marginally ripe grapes to bring down the average potential alcohol
- closed fermentation tanks as opposed to open-tops
- the use of concentrators

To look at Bordeaux with broad brush strokes, there was a viticultural revolution that took off precipitously with the massive replantings that followed the 1956 frost: lower vine densities adapted for mechanization, more productive rootstocks and clones, and more intensive use of agrochemicals (with herbicide use superseding cultivating the soils at many addresses by the 60s). The result was yields that doubled or tripled (but importantly with the same sugar levels as before) compared to what was achieved in the 1950s by the 1970s, and even though there are still plenty of very nice Bordeaux, it would be hard to say that more than a handful of wines made in that decade are fit to stand alongside the best wines of the 50s or before. By the end of the 1980s, vintages began to get a bit riper on average, and producers tried waiting longer to bring a bit more flesh and character to the vines; but the farming was still geared towards producing historically large volumes; and towards meeting the historical challenge of getting enough sugar rather than the emerging challenge of having too much. And that problem only got more acute in the 2000s. That's how we get from 11.0%, chaptalized to 11.5 or 12%, to natural alcohols of 14.5 in just a few decades. Or at least, that's my interpretation.
A really good synopsis, thank you. It explains the problems of trying to achieve ripeness, while keeping the freshness and slight edginess which I loved in older Bordeaux. For instance, I have largely discounted 2010 Right Bank, finding them very alcoholic. Troplong Mondot came in at 16.2% and even the Canon under arch traditionalist, John Kolassa was well over 15%. It is hard to accept that alcohol levels on the Right Bank are this high, and likely to stay that way.

I remember an old Clive Coates note, where he talked about a winemaker who knew his grapes were ripe when he kicked the vine and grapes fell off. Recently, the winemaker was kicking, and all he got was a sore foot.

The late Denis Dubourdieu, a lovely man, a winemaker and also a professor at the University of Bordeaux, thought the grapes were ripe when the birds started lining up to eat them.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#80 Post by Howard Cooper » June 18th, 2020, 4:35 am

It is fascinating that most of the wines listed on this thread are Bordeaux. The emperor has no clothes?????

[I am sure now that I said this, the Bore Dough defenders will come out of the woods and start listing Burgundies, California Cabs and Chardonnay, Barolos, etc., to defend their region. But this thread to date has really been striking at how much it has been a Bordeaux thread.]
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#81 Post by Pat Burton » June 18th, 2020, 5:25 am

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 7:46 pm

Honestly, no one mentions this but the elevation of alcohol through evaporation in dry, above ground, air conditioned facilities is probably a bigger impact(as much as .5 degrees of alcohol every 6 months).
I've never understood this, though I accept that it is true. Ethanol has a much higher evaporation rate than water. Logic dictates that wines should therefore become less alcoholic over time. Do the barrels somehow trap EtOH but not water?
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#82 Post by William Kelley » June 18th, 2020, 5:34 am

Pat Burton wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 5:25 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 7:46 pm

Honestly, no one mentions this but the elevation of alcohol through evaporation in dry, above ground, air conditioned facilities is probably a bigger impact(as much as .5 degrees of alcohol every 6 months).
I've never understood this, though I accept that it is true. Ethanol has a much higher evaporation rate than water. Logic dictates that wines should therefore become less alcoholic over time. Do the barrels somehow trap EtOH but not water?
Osmotic pressure! Wines go up in alcohol if aged in barrel in dry cellars, and loose alcohol in very humid cellars.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#83 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 18th, 2020, 5:40 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 4:35 am
It is fascinating that most of the wines listed on this thread are Bordeaux. The emperor has no clothes?????

[I am sure now that I said this, the Bore Dough defenders will come out of the woods and start listing Burgundies, California Cabs and Chardonnay, Barolos, etc., to defend their region. But this thread to date has really been striking at how much it has been a Bordeaux thread.]
Howard,
As far as Burgundy is concerned, few people can afford the high end stuff, which is the category for disappointment. But here goes. I came back a day early from a trip to Europe because Sotheby’s was having a pre auction tasting, and a La Tache 1962, a wine that is still on the my bucket list, was listed. It still is on the bucket list, as the bottle was almost completely maderized.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#84 Post by Howard Cooper » June 18th, 2020, 5:46 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 5:40 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 4:35 am
It is fascinating that most of the wines listed on this thread are Bordeaux. The emperor has no clothes?????

[I am sure now that I said this, the Bore Dough defenders will come out of the woods and start listing Burgundies, California Cabs and Chardonnay, Barolos, etc., to defend their region. But this thread to date has really been striking at how much it has been a Bordeaux thread.]
Howard,
As far as Burgundy is concerned, few people can afford the high end stuff, which is the category for disappointment. But here goes. I came back a day early from a trip to Europe because Sotheby’s was having a pre auction tasting, and a La Tache 1962, a wine that is still on the my bucket list, was listed. It still is on the bucket list, as the bottle was almost completely maderized.
As I predicted.

People can afford first growth Bordeaux from vintages like 1959, 1982 and 1990 but not grand cru Burgundy????? [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] You must not read much in the way of Burgundy threads. Look at how many people list DRC in their top five producers of Burgundy in terms of bottles owned. [rofl.gif]
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#85 Post by Ramon C » June 18th, 2020, 5:58 am

Craig G wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 8:41 pm
Ramon C wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 7:55 pm
1983 Ch. Margaux

3 times and none impressed nor were close to the high expectations they came with.
LOL, I guess this qualifies as the most disappointing great wine I’ve never had. Back around 2005 I had a boss in a startup who was really into wine and liked to drink with customers. He was arranging a dinner with a customer who was a friend of his and wanted to serve two bottles of 83 Margaux, but he only had one. He asked me if I had one and I did (just one). He then asked if he could use my bottle and replace it for me. I gave him mine and for months after he told me he had my replacement on the way. Finally he was fired and that was the end of it. I keep hoping he’ll show up one day with my Margaux :-)
Funny story. He got fired because client complained about the "disappointing" wine served.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#86 Post by John Morris » June 18th, 2020, 6:18 am

MikeL238 wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 4:20 pm
Greg K wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 3:34 pm
1990 LLC (what a boring wine)
1990 Jaboulet La Chappelle
+1 on 1990 Jaboulet La Chappelle. Enjoyable, but definitely not worth the price.
I think there were still multiple lots in 1990, bottled over some period of time. There was a lot of variation in Rhônes more generally back then for the same reason. I know there distinctly different 83 La Chapelle bottlings.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#87 Post by Mark Golodetz » June 18th, 2020, 6:20 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 5:46 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 5:40 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 4:35 am
It is fascinating that most of the wines listed on this thread are Bordeaux. The emperor has no clothes?????

[I am sure now that I said this, the Bore Dough defenders will come out of the woods and start listing Burgundies, California Cabs and Chardonnay, Barolos, etc., to defend their region. But this thread to date has really been striking at how much it has been a Bordeaux thread.]
Howard,
As far as Burgundy is concerned, few people can afford the high end stuff, which is the category for disappointment. But here goes. I came back a day early from a trip to Europe because Sotheby’s was having a pre auction tasting, and a La Tache 1962, a wine that is still on the my bucket list, was listed. It still is on the bucket list, as the bottle was almost completely maderized.
As I predicted.

People can afford first growth Bordeaux from vintages like 1959, 1982 and 1990 but not grand cru Burgundy????? [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] You must not read much in the way of Burgundy threads. Look at how many people list DRC in their top five producers of Burgundy in terms of bottles owned. [rofl.gif]
Howard,
You don’t need me to tell you that with the exception off a few marquee wines, such as Cheval ‘47, Burgundy is way more expensive than Bordeaux.

Not all Grand Crus are expensive. I can buy our beloved Rossignol Trapets Grand Crus for a couple of hundred dollars. Rousseau prices are a little lower than they were, but likely to still cost upwards of $2000. DRCs begin at $1500, and recently a case of La Tache 1999 went for $9000 a bottle.

Current releases of Romanee Conti sells for $10k plus, three times as much Petrus.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#88 Post by Pat Burton » June 18th, 2020, 6:32 am

William Kelley wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 5:34 am
Pat Burton wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 5:25 am
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 7:46 pm

Honestly, no one mentions this but the elevation of alcohol through evaporation in dry, above ground, air conditioned facilities is probably a bigger impact(as much as .5 degrees of alcohol every 6 months).
I've never understood this, though I accept that it is true. Ethanol has a much higher evaporation rate than water. Logic dictates that wines should therefore become less alcoholic over time. Do the barrels somehow trap EtOH but not water?
Osmotic pressure! Wines go up in alcohol if aged in barrel in dry cellars, and loose alcohol in very humid cellars.
Thank you. That makes sense now.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#89 Post by Howard Cooper » June 18th, 2020, 6:45 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 6:20 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 5:46 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 5:40 am


Howard,
As far as Burgundy is concerned, few people can afford the high end stuff, which is the category for disappointment. But here goes. I came back a day early from a trip to Europe because Sotheby’s was having a pre auction tasting, and a La Tache 1962, a wine that is still on the my bucket list, was listed. It still is on the bucket list, as the bottle was almost completely maderized.
As I predicted.

People can afford first growth Bordeaux from vintages like 1959, 1982 and 1990 but not grand cru Burgundy????? [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] You must not read much in the way of Burgundy threads. Look at how many people list DRC in their top five producers of Burgundy in terms of bottles owned. [rofl.gif]
Howard,
You don’t need me to tell you that with the exception off a few marquee wines, such as Cheval ‘47, Burgundy is way more expensive than Bordeaux.

Not all Grand Crus are expensive. I can buy our beloved Rossignol Trapets Grand Crus for a couple of hundred dollars. Rousseau prices are a little lower than they were, but likely to still cost upwards of $2000. DRCs begin at $1500, and recently a case of La Tache 1999 went for $9000 a bottle.

Current releases of Romanee Conti sells for $10k plus, three times as much Petrus.
I find the prices of both Bordeaux and Burgundy (and of many other wines) to be horribly expensive. I wish it were not so, but at least you and I are old enough to have bought a lot of our wines at more reasonable prices. But, you did not simply assert that Burgundy is expensive but rather that it is so expensive that few people on this board can afford it. There is a thread on the first page where board members list the top ten Burgundy producers in their cellars. Please look at this thread, even 2020 additions and you will find that quite a number of board members are buying these wines.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#90 Post by John Morris » June 18th, 2020, 6:52 am

William Kelley wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 5:52 pm
MikeL238 wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 4:36 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 4:34 pm
The La Chapelle 1990
I understand more than one bottling, and the European versions are stellar. The ones I have had in the U.S. were underwhelming.
[...]
There were different versions? I'm confused.
Yes, and this is quite common. Until the 20th century, almost all wines were bottled directly from the barrel, foudre or tank. Blending a large number of barrels to make a homogeneous cuvée requires pumps and large blending tanks—from a technical perspective, not so easy without modern equipment. And to this day you will have multiple bottlings of many, many wines that carry the same label. In Chablis, for example, many producers did two or even three bottlings of their huge 2018 crop, with the first bottling in many cases coming in February the year after the vintage—whereas the last bottling might see another 10 months or more on the lees. As for Jaboulet, I think it was quite typical for there to be different bottlings for different importers (my experience has been that the Malmaison bottlings for Clive Coates in the UK were the best in the era when that label was extant). And in the 1990 vintage, the variation is quite flagrant: I have had some great bottles, and also some that were very flat and roasted.

Incidentally, a friend ran numbers on the US bottling of 1990 La Chapelle recently: it's 13.64% alcohol, pH 3.38 and TA of 0.63. Looking at the numbers alone one would assume that it was heavily acid-adjusted. And when, for context, one considers that most Gentaz Côte Rôtie were below 11.5%, it is clear that the 1990 La Chapelle was at least on the cusp of overripeness.

For me, even the best bottles of the 1990 are ultimately not on the level of the 1978, 1972 or 1961, or indeed even some of the less-celebrated vintages such as 1982 (from a cold cellar). But it took me a few years and quite a few bottles to come to that point of view.
I hadn't seen this when I posted #86 above.

I'm not absolutely sure, but I believe that large Rhone producers such as Jaboulet and Guigal blended barrels into more uniform lots by the 80s even if they had several lots and bottlings of their marquee wines. I doubt that these two were bottling Hermitage or Cote Rotie barrel by barrel that late. Unlike most producers, they were large negotiants with big facilities and many tanks.

I didn't buy the '90 La Chapelle on release, but there were certainly several lots of the '83 released at different points, I remember. I bought a couple of bottles early on in SF. The wine then became scarce until a second release a year or so later, when I grabbed a couple in NYC. The lore in those days was that they released earlier-maturing lots first, then the more vin-de-garde lots later. But I don't know if that's true.

Jaboulet also had a another brand/label, the name of which I can't recall, and they released some of their Hermitage and Cotie under that name through different importers. Wine House in SF used to direct-import them. Supposedly the wine was the same as the top Jaboulet bottlings, and that certainly seemed true for the Cote Rotie bottlings.

The point is, that they had a lot of wine to sell and demand for Northern Rhone wasn't what it is today. It may have made more sense to keep some wine in tank before bottling when it could be sold.

That said, barrel-by-barrel bottling was still common in the Rhone in the 80s at smaller wineries. Kermit Lynch supposedly had his pick of barrels, for instance, and the Chave Hermitages in that era that Lynch imported were different from the ones that Premier imported for the East Coast. (Claude Kolm organized a blind tasting circa 1990-93 where we sampled Lynch versus Premier bottles of three or four vintages. All were good, but the Lynch wines had more depth.) But I assume that Lynch's wine was a blend of the selected barrels.

[Note to William: I assume you meant 21st Century in the bolded phrase. I'm not sure, but it think the move to blending barrels was well established before 2000. I don't remember when the EU began requiring lot numbers on bottles -- I think in the early 90s. That may have been one impetus.]
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#91 Post by Sanjay Shampur » June 18th, 2020, 7:10 am

96 Salon
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#92 Post by William Kelley » June 18th, 2020, 7:20 am

I didn't mean to imply La Chapelle was bottled barrel by barrel at that time, John - I was just making the general point that the idea that cuvées would be blended together in a single big tank for an entirely homogeneous bottling is a very recent phenomenon in the wine world; and that even bottling from tank rather than barrel is a mid-20th-century innovation. La Chapelle 1990 would have been bottled from tank, but there would have been multiple bottlings of multiple blends (of different constituent parts) rather than one single, homogeneous blend—and at least some importers may have had input into what they were getting.

Logistically speaking, few large wineries e.g. Bordeaux Châteaux have a single tank big enough to hold the entire cuvée. So to make a homogenous bottling they have to produce a number of sub blends, racking the wines into different tanks, and then blend the correct proportions of the sub-blends together in a bottling tank for a bottling run.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#93 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 18th, 2020, 7:27 am

Andrew Demaree wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 7:09 pm
1990 Margaux. Didn’t have any obvious flaws, but certainly didn’t need to live up to the fantastic CellarTracker reviews and paled in comparison to a bottle of 1991 Montelena poured at the same tasting.

To be fair, I’ve only had the Margaux once and it wasn’t my bottle, so I can’t vouch for how it was handled prior to purchase. I do know that it was stored in a temperature and humidity controlled cellar after purchase.
+1, from perfectly stored bottles bought on release (by others).

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#94 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 18th, 2020, 7:57 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 5:00 am
Yao C wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 9:12 pm


Over the past year I was let down by a 1990 Taittinger Comtes which I carried all the way to Hong Kong in my luggage only to find it disjointed and seemingly less than the sum of its parts. Ditto a 1990 Pol Roger SWC. Both auction bottles so maybe storage takes the blame, or travel shock...
I had the 1990 Taittinger CdC a couple of years ago and it was marvelous. My guess would be storage or travel shock, as you suggest.
My experience with ‘90 is a lot of bottle variation due to some mistreatment in the supply chain on the East Coast on release, i.e., cooked bottles.

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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#95 Post by Thomas Keim » June 18th, 2020, 8:00 am

Just about any Chave Hermitage Blanc I have tasted -
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#96 Post by Todd F r e n c h » June 18th, 2020, 8:02 am

Funny how Bordeaux is so frequently mentioned - oh well, I like MOST Bordeaux, but I guess it applies often because of the crazy pricing on 1st Growths, expectations are high, as they should be.

Mine's not really 'great', in the same vein as First Growth pricing/popularity, but I can recall being disappointed quite a lot by Roulot, several times.
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#97 Post by Todd F r e n c h » June 18th, 2020, 8:02 am

Thomas Keim wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 8:00 am
Just about any Chave Hermitage Blanc I have tasted -
Who the heck calls those 'great' in the first place??
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#98 Post by Jayson Cohen » June 18th, 2020, 8:06 am

Nick Christie wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 9:02 pm
Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 7:50 pm
Nick Christie wrote:
June 17th, 2020, 2:10 pm


Key Question: I hear the cautious drudgery in your plaintive post. Is there anyone in your wine group you'd like me to fight for your entertainment on a future occasion with said '47 Lafleur Patrus? Just, you know, to keep the ambiance similar as in tastings past. Think on it, Mark [training.gif] .
I’ll cosign with you on this one.

Happy to do some pushing, shoving, and general ruckus making with you Nick...after the ‘47 Lafleur is tasted.
A love it when a plan comes together...

Image
We had a trivia question about this very scene last night!

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Andrew Demaree
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#99 Post by Andrew Demaree » June 18th, 2020, 9:04 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 7:27 am
Andrew Demaree wrote:
June 16th, 2020, 7:09 pm
1990 Margaux. Didn’t have any obvious flaws, but certainly didn’t need to live up to the fantastic CellarTracker reviews and paled in comparison to a bottle of 1991 Montelena poured at the same tasting.

To be fair, I’ve only had the Margaux once and it wasn’t my bottle, so I can’t vouch for how it was handled prior to purchase. I do know that it was stored in a temperature and humidity controlled cellar after purchase.
+1, from perfectly stored bottles bought on release (by others).
Unfortunately, my only other experience with Margaux was a bottle of 2005 that was gifted to my brother-in-law, that he really wanted to open with me and my wife 2-3 years ago. As you can imagine, it was nowhere near ready to enjoy...essentially a waste. [cry.gif] So, I'm 0-for-2 on Margaux, the only First Growth I've had an opportunity to taste.

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Thomas Keim
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Re: Most disappointing 'great' wine you've ever had?

#100 Post by Thomas Keim » June 18th, 2020, 9:09 am

Todd F r e n c h wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 8:02 am
Thomas Keim wrote:
June 18th, 2020, 8:00 am
Just about any Chave Hermitage Blanc I have tasted -
Who the heck calls those 'great' in the first place??
Not I -
ITB - The Yoerg Brewing Company

"What if I fall?" "Oh, but my darling, what if you fly?"

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