Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

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Sc0tt F!tzger@ld
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Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#1 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » July 9th, 2020, 6:34 am

I've tackled most of the major wine regions and varieties with some level of seriousness, with the exception of Burgundy. I've poked around the edges with Chablis and Cru Beaujolais, but no serious red burg purchases. As I approach 50, I'm wondering if I should redirect some of my purchasing towards this category or just be content with my other French, Italian, German, and increasingly dwindling supply of domestic wines.

I'll confess that I've never had the "epiphany" red burg, of which so many aficionados speak. I'm sure some suggestions will include backfilling, so appreciate any thoughts on vintages which would continue to drink well over the next 10-15 years. My comfortable price zone tends to be in the < $150 range, although I'll occasionally break this rule for exceptional bottles. Also, feel free to point me to any other existing threads - not looking to beat any dead horses here. Thanks!

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#2 Post by jason stein » July 9th, 2020, 6:36 am

Frankly, I think there is a decent amount of sub-$150 burgundy available to backfill via retailers and auctions. Definitely worth dipping your toes into. Also, I think plenty of burgundy can provide a lot of pleasure even at relatively young ages. Stuff like the 2017 Fourrier Gevrey VV is rocking right now.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#3 Post by Tomás Costa » July 9th, 2020, 6:54 am

Disclaimer: I am a complete newbie, and given that feel free to ignore 100% of what I say.

The impression I've gotten around this forum is that there is plenty of enjoyable Burgundy to be had in an array of price ranges, but the famous 'Burgundy epiphany' only comes from aged wines of superior quality, and therefore is only available at this very moment from higher end bottles from specific producers of excellence - which used to cost a certain amount when people around here began cellaring them, and now cost something like 10 times as much. If you were a huge fan of an indie band which has since exploded in fame, you probably got to see them first row in your hometown for a bargain price, and newer fans won't. The alternative is to buy good QPR today (the average quality of viticulture and winemaking today has never been higher) and wait for the magic to happen. I'm doing that, but I'm much younger.

The other issue is that Burgundy has low supply relative to the demand, and therefore what you get for, say, $50 in Burgundy is not what you get for $50 in many other places where the real estate is not as expensive. To take this analogy further, the kind of housing you'll be able to afford in rural Idaho will be different from what you'll be able to afford in Manhattan with the same amount of money. The exception to this is probably in the less heralded parts of Burgundy. For instance, I really like Bachelet-Monnot's wines in the Maranges and they are around 30€. Their Puligny-Montrachet Village wine is already almost double the price.

Again, I want to make it clear that you will henceforth get replies from people who are actually experienced in Burgundy, and who may feel I'm spouting nonsense.
Last edited by Tomás Costa on July 9th, 2020, 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#4 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » July 9th, 2020, 7:34 am

Tomás Costa wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 6:54 am
The impression I've gotten around this forum is that there is plenty of enjoyable Burgundy to be had in an array of price ranges, but the famous 'Burgundy epiphany' only comes from aged wines of superior quality, and therefore is only available at this very moment from higher end bottles from specific producers of excellence - which used to cost a certain amount when people around here began cellaring them, and now cost something like 10 times as much.

The other issue is that Burgundy has low supply relative to the demand, and therefore what you get for, say, $50 in Burgundy is not what you get for $50 in many other places where the real estate is not as expensive. To take this analogy further, the kind of housing you'll be able to afford in rural Idaho will be different from what you'll be able to afford in Manhattan with the same amount of money.
I think this is why I haven't jumped in yet. I've been putting my money in other areas like Champagne, Bordeaux, and Piedmont, for example, as I've historically felt there's better value. And I'm not looking for daily drinkers or just "good" wines - really looking for some outstanding experiences, but not sure what I can find in my price range.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#5 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » July 9th, 2020, 7:41 am

And I want to state that I know there are lots of good burgs out there which don't break the bank. I've seen posts from Howard and others for example, which call out specific wines and producers. I need to pick up some of these and try them.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#6 Post by kmason » July 9th, 2020, 8:06 am

Geez 50. I'm approaching 70 and I just bought a case of 2015 Pousse d'Or Corton Bressandes Grand Cru. That's my answer [cheers.gif]
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#7 Post by Tomás Costa » July 9th, 2020, 8:08 am

kmason wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 8:06 am
Geez 50. I'm approaching 70 and I just bought a case of 2015 Pousse d'Or Corton Bressandes Grand Cru. That's my answer [cheers.gif]
That's another much praised high QPR wine! When do you plan on opening the first one?
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#8 Post by kmason » July 9th, 2020, 8:16 am

Opened one the day after it arrived. Somewhat dark and rich as befits the vintage, black fruits a bit of forest floor in the nose, well integrated tannins. Very enjoyable and I'm glad I bought it.

I've also been enjoying a very tasty Santenay Vieilles Vignes 2017 from Justin Girardin. $30.00 retail.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#9 Post by alan weinberg » July 9th, 2020, 8:18 am

talk to Martin Steinley and start collecting. Also, you can backfill older vintages fairly easily.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#10 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » July 9th, 2020, 8:20 am

Tomás Costa wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 6:54 am
Disclaimer: I am a complete newbie, and given that feel free to ignore 100% of what I say.

The impression I've gotten around this forum is that there is plenty of enjoyable Burgundy to be had in an array of price ranges, but the famous 'Burgundy epiphany' only comes from aged wines of superior quality, and therefore is only available at this very moment from higher end bottles from specific producers of excellence - which used to cost a certain amount when people around here began cellaring them, and now cost something like 10 times as much.
Not true at all in my experience. I've had several "epiphany" experiences from wines 10 years old or less and well under $150 even today, let alone when I purchased them. Bouchard Le Corton and Pousse d'Or Bousse d'Or Volnays come to mind. That's just me, others can no doubt recommend others.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#11 Post by Robert Sand » July 9th, 2020, 8:24 am

I don´t see the problem - you don´t hope to be 80+ ?

It doesn´t make much sense to buy 2017s, 2018s, 2019s - then wait 12, 15, 20+ years ... just to find out that Burgundy doesn´t do it for you.

Better look for some (close to) mature bottles, taste them now - then decide further.

I would recommend (reds only): nothing younger than 2007, but 07 should be fine to drink on almost all levels.
Some 2006s, NO 2005 (they need at least 5-10 more years),
NO 2004 (infected by green meanies),
NO or only few 2003, because they are atypical ripe with low acidity,
but 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999 !
Older vintages must be selected with care ...

Don´t forget to open bottles well in advance!

I´m not from the US, so I don´t know what is available for you, but stick to good producers first, then choose vineyards and Crus.

If you like the aged versions you can still decide to buy younger bottles for cellaring.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#12 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » July 9th, 2020, 8:27 am

Tomás Costa wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 6:54 am
Disclaimer: I am a complete newbie, and given that feel free to ignore 100% of what I say.

The impression I've gotten around this forum is that there is plenty of enjoyable Burgundy to be had in an array of price ranges, but the famous 'Burgundy epiphany' only comes from aged wines of superior quality, and therefore is only available at this very moment from higher end bottles from specific producers of excellence - which used to cost a certain amount when people around here began cellaring them, and now cost something like 10 times as much. If you were a huge fan of an indie band which has since exploded in fame, you probably got to see them first row in your hometown for a bargain price, and newer fans won't. The alternative is to buy good QPR today (the average quality of viticulture and winemaking today has never been higher) and wait for the magic to happen. I'm doing that, but I'm much younger. For instance, I have it on very good advice that an excellent QPR high end red Burgundy is the 2015 Bouchard Clos de Beze. It's still an expensive wine, but nowhere near what other producers' stuff goes for.

The other issue is that Burgundy has low supply relative to the demand, and therefore what you get for, say, $50 in Burgundy is not what you get for $50 in many other places where the real estate is not as expensive. To take this analogy further, the kind of housing you'll be able to afford in rural Idaho will be different from what you'll be able to afford in Manhattan with the same amount of money. The exception to this is probably in the less heralded parts of Burgundy. For instance, I really like Bachelet-Monnot's wines in the Maranges and they are around 30€. Their Puligny-Montrachet Village wine is already almost double the price.

Again, I want to make it clear that you will henceforth get replies from people who are actually experienced in Burgundy, and who may feel I'm spouting nonsense.
Value in burgundy is a relative thing but there are very good age worthy burgundies in the 75-150 price point and even the 50-100 price point.

Will you be able to cellar the top grand Crus? No, but the very top wines from most regions are out of reach at that price point.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#13 Post by Robert Pavlovich » July 9th, 2020, 9:06 am

They say all roads lead to Burgundy. Kind of haunts some people because it’s so often true. Get in and don’t look back. There are really nice wines at all price points. 2017 reds have been drinking well, and I’ve had luck with lower to mid level 2010’s. The in between vintages of 10-17 aren’t really optimal for right now generally speaking, though plenty of exceptions. Low to mid level 05’s have been waking up too.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#14 Post by Scott Brunson » July 9th, 2020, 9:19 am

I’m 58 and mostly backfilling.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#15 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » July 9th, 2020, 9:20 am

kmason wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 8:06 am
Geez 50. I'm approaching 70 and I just bought a case of 2015 Pousse d'Or Corton Bressandes Grand Cru. That's my answer [cheers.gif]
Awesome, there's hope!

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#16 Post by R. Frankel » July 9th, 2020, 9:28 am

@Scott - one question I have is - do you like Burgundy? You didn’t mention that. If you’re not sure, I’d recommend buying a good handful of 2016-2018 and drinking them this year. Burgundy has the helpful quality that it has a ‘drinks well young’ window that is absolutely delightful. This isn’t about some massive epiphany (though always welcome!) but honestly assessing your own interest.

I’ve attended La Paulee since the 2013 vintage and have mostly found the wines to be open. This has helped me figure out which producers I like more than others. Sure it has led me to spend a bit more, and there’s a bit of schadenfreude over producers that amazed me but are out of my price range. But young Burgundy is delicious!

So buy and try some young stuff!
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#17 Post by Howard Cooper » July 9th, 2020, 9:32 am

For threads, try:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=119762

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=155013

For a specific recommendation, try a villages Chambolle-Musigny or Vosne-Romanee from Hudelot-Noellat. If you can find a 2012 or 2014, get those. The 2015s and 2016s, while promising, are likely very young right now. The 2017 will be very primary, but this also is a pretty easy drinking vintage. 2018s will be expensive because of the tariffs (as a result of the tariffs, Burgundy prices are really expensive in general right now in the US). I recommend Hudelot-Noellat because it is pretty easy to find and pretty easy to drink. There are some producers that make pretty structured wines like D'Angerville, Chandon de Briailles, etc., where the wines are really well made but need time. Other producers make big rich wines. There are really small producers that make good wine like Jouan and Tremblay, but good luck finding them. There are the big name producers like Roumier and Mugneret-Gibourg, but their prices (at least in the US) reflect how popular the wines are (prices for MG, at least, are much better at the winery, but that generally is not an option).

Hudelot-Noellat is somewhere in the middle. Old established winery with a new generation that took over in 2008 in the person of Charles Van Canneyt who even now is about 32 or so. Fabulous wines that are sort of somewhere in the middle in terms of style. Wines can range from about $30 or so for the Bourgogne (at least before the tariffs, not sure the price of 2018s) to multiple hundreds for Richebourg and Romanee St. Vivant. The villages wines are a good entry point IMHO. I would get both the CM and the VR and compare and contrast them. If you think they taste the same, Burgundy is not for you. If you think one is really good and the other not so good, Burgundy probably is not for you. If you think, wow, both of these wines are really good but they are really distinct from each other, you will be hooked.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#18 Post by Tomás Costa » July 9th, 2020, 9:38 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:32 am
If you think one is really good and the other not so good, Burgundy probably is not for you. If you think, wow, both of these wines are really good but they are really distinct from each other, you will be hooked.
It is probably better to compare different vineyards from the same producer, as you mentioned, rather than the other way around, but this was how I came to understand I preferred Rossignol-Trapet's basic style to straight Trapet's (comparing Gevreys).
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#19 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » July 9th, 2020, 9:39 am

R. Frankel wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:28 am
@Scott - one question I have is - do you like Burgundy? You didn’t mention that.
I think so and I've certainly enjoyed some of the lighter PNs I've tried in other regions, e.g. Oregon.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#20 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » July 9th, 2020, 9:41 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:32 am
For threads, try:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=119762

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=155013

For a specific recommendation, try a villages Chambolle-Musigny or Vosne-Romanee from Hudelot-Noellat. If you can find a 2012 or 2014, get those. The 2015s and 2016s, while promising, are likely very young right now. The 2017 will be very primary, but this also is a pretty easy drinking vintage. 2018s will be expensive because of the tariffs (as a result of the tariffs, Burgundy prices are really expensive in general right now in the US). I recommend Hudelot-Noellat because it is pretty easy to find and pretty easy to drink. There are some producers that make pretty structured wines like D'Angerville, Chandon de Briailles, etc., where the wines are really well made but need time. Other producers make big rich wines. There are really small producers that make good wine like Jouan and Tremblay, but good luck finding them. There are the big name producers like Roumier and Mugneret-Gibourg, but their prices (at least in the US) reflect how popular the wines are (prices for MG, at least, are much better at the winery, but that generally is not an option).

Hudelot-Noellat is somewhere in the middle. Old established winery with a new generation that took over in 2008 in the person of Charles Van Canneyt who even now is about 32 or so. Fabulous wines that are sort of somewhere in the middle in terms of style. Wines can range from about $30 or so for the Bourgogne (at least before the tariffs, not sure the price of 2018s) to multiple hundreds for Richebourg and Romanee St. Vivant. The villages wines are a good entry point IMHO. I would get both the CM and the VR and compare and contrast them. If you think they taste the same, Burgundy is not for you. If you think one is really good and the other not so good, Burgundy probably is not for you. If you think, wow, both of these wines are really good but they are really distinct from each other, you will be hooked.
Thanks Howard, I've bookmarked several threads you've commented on previously. Appreciate the recommendations.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#21 Post by Dale Bowers » July 9th, 2020, 9:41 am

How much money do you have? [tease.gif]
Cheers!

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#22 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » July 9th, 2020, 9:41 am

Dale Bowers wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:41 am
How much money do you have? [tease.gif]
Yeah, I hear you.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#23 Post by R. Frankel » July 9th, 2020, 10:00 am

Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:39 am
R. Frankel wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:28 am
@Scott - one question I have is - do you like Burgundy? You didn’t mention that.
I think so and I've certainly enjoyed some of the lighter PNs I've tried in other regions, e.g. Oregon.
Well good [cheers.gif] then welcome to the credit card breaking club!

Covid year is a terrible time to explore a new region because large tastings are impossible. So you'll have to just conduct your own! Not the worst, but I'd be impressed if you could replicate a La Paulee-esque event with 100+ bottles to try. Needless to say, when this time is past, go to La Paulee. It's a special, unique event - aside from all the secondary opportunities, there is no better Burgundy (red and white) tasting event in the US that I know of.

And to answer your question - approaching 50 is nowhere near too late. I'm 56, and I'm still buying new release Burgundy. I've been trying to split my purchasing 50-50 between new releases and backfilling (2010 and older, an arbitrary distinction but that's how I think of it). Yes, you get fewer older bottles for your money, but I don't want a cellar that's untouchable for a decade or two. [Disclaimer: this all depends on how you like your aged Burgs. If you like them with 30+ years then sure, maybe it's too late. But pre-1990 Burg is nearly impossible to find in any quantity anyway.]

Last bit of advice - don't just focus on top end GCs or 1ers. I try to fill my cellar with lots of village level wines. They are easier on the budget of course, and they also are drinkable earlier. Been opening some 2009 village wines (eg. Bertheau Chambolle) this year that have been wonderful. Some will take longer to open, of course. It's also much harder to backfill village level wines - they are just not available in the market, especially the auction market which tends to focus on higher end bottles.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#24 Post by Chris Seiber » July 9th, 2020, 10:09 am

R. Frankel wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:28 am
@Scott - one question I have is - do you like Burgundy? You didn’t mention that.
That was my takeaway from the original post as well. Do you like Burgundy and you're wondering if there's still time to get into it and how much would it cost? Or are you wondering if you will or should like Burgundy?

If it's the latter, you should attend some tastings, buy a few assorted mature bottles, and see if you really like it that much, and if so, how much you're willing to pay / store / wait. I don't think you should assume just because Burgundy is exalted on this board and in certain circles that therefore it should become your main thing.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#25 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » July 9th, 2020, 10:20 am

Chris Seiber wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 10:09 am
R. Frankel wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:28 am
@Scott - one question I have is - do you like Burgundy? You didn’t mention that.
That was my takeaway from the original post as well. Do you like Burgundy and you're wondering if there's still time to get into it and how much would it cost? Or are you wondering if you will or should like Burgundy?

If it's the latter, you should attend some tastings, buy a few assorted mature bottles, and see if you really like it that much, and if so, how much you're willing to pay / store / wait. I don't think you should assume just because Burgundy is exalted on this board and in certain circles that therefore it should become your main thing.
Yes, sound advice. I've dabbled a bit in Burgundy and have liked some, but not 'aha' moment yet, like with some other wines. Like you said, I should dabble some more before making any big commitment.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#26 Post by Greg K » July 9th, 2020, 10:59 am

Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 10:20 am
Chris Seiber wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 10:09 am
R. Frankel wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:28 am
@Scott - one question I have is - do you like Burgundy? You didn’t mention that.
That was my takeaway from the original post as well. Do you like Burgundy and you're wondering if there's still time to get into it and how much would it cost? Or are you wondering if you will or should like Burgundy?

If it's the latter, you should attend some tastings, buy a few assorted mature bottles, and see if you really like it that much, and if so, how much you're willing to pay / store / wait. I don't think you should assume just because Burgundy is exalted on this board and in certain circles that therefore it should become your main thing.
Yes, sound advice. I've dabbled a bit in Burgundy and have liked some, but not 'aha' moment yet, like with some other wines. Like you said, I should dabble some more before making any big commitment.
You mentioned BoJo, which isn't Burgundy ;)

But on a more serious note, I agree withe posters on this thread that there's lots of very good Burgundy well within your price range.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#27 Post by Howard Cooper » July 9th, 2020, 12:17 pm

Tomás Costa wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:38 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:32 am
If you think one is really good and the other not so good, Burgundy probably is not for you. If you think, wow, both of these wines are really good but they are really distinct from each other, you will be hooked.
It is probably better to compare different vineyards from the same producer, as you mentioned, rather than the other way around, but this was how I came to understand I preferred Rossignol-Trapet's basic style to straight Trapet's (comparing Gevreys).
I like Rossignol-Trapet's wines a good bit and have a lot more experience with their wines than I do with the wines of Trapet. I have visited RT a few times and the people there are very nice and the wines really excellent. But, I have had the wines of Trapet a few times in the last year or so and I think they are excellent as well. Note that this used to be one winery until cousins - brothers David and Nicolas Rossignol on the one hand (their mother was a Trapet I believe) and Jean-Louis Trapet on the other hand - split up the winery.
Howard

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#28 Post by Howard Cooper » July 9th, 2020, 12:21 pm

Sc0tt F!tzger@ld wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:41 am
Dale Bowers wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:41 am
How much money do you have? [tease.gif]
Yeah, I hear you.
Burgundy is only expensive if you want it to be expensive. You can save a lot of money buying wine from the Cotes Chalonnaise. Wines from producers like Domaine des Moirots and Juillot are very nice and not that much money. http://www.weygandtmetzler.com/all And, Faiveley is very well known for their wines from Mercury. Are these wines as good as a 40 year old la Tache, no, but for the money they can be quite nice.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#29 Post by Yao C » July 9th, 2020, 12:30 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 12:21 pm
Are these wines as good as a 40 year old la Tache, no, but for the money they can be quite nice.
Therein lies the rub, no? Scott said he was "really looking for some outstanding experiences"
C h 0 o n 6

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#30 Post by Sc0tt F!tzger@ld » July 9th, 2020, 12:49 pm

Yao C wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 12:30 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 12:21 pm
Are these wines as good as a 40 year old la Tache, no, but for the money they can be quite nice.
Therein lies the rub, no? Scott said he was "really looking for some outstanding experiences"
I can live with "quite nice", with a few "outstandings" sprinkled in.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#31 Post by Dennis Borczon » July 9th, 2020, 12:54 pm

Dale Bowers wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:41 am
How much money do you have? [tease.gif]
How much sense do you have?

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#32 Post by Howard Cooper » July 9th, 2020, 12:58 pm

Dennis Borczon wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 12:54 pm
Dale Bowers wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 9:41 am
How much money do you have? [tease.gif]
How much sense do you have?
Wine is not about sense. It is about want and then keeping want to a reasonable enough level so that it doesn't change your lifestyle.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#33 Post by M. Meer » July 9th, 2020, 1:07 pm

For a drink now situation, I would go for 10+ year old village or 15-20+ year old 1er Cru. If you can find a '95 Beaune 1er or older, that could be great.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#34 Post by Dennis Borczon » July 9th, 2020, 1:08 pm

Are you sure you're in the right place? This is Wine Berserkers. If we had any sense we would be listening to our spouses.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#35 Post by Mark Golodetz » July 9th, 2020, 1:45 pm

There are surprises everywhere in Burgundy, and you don’t need to spend a couple of thousand dollars to find a great wine. I echo Howard’s Rossignol Trapet notes. Seriously good QPR. The Glantenay which I just started a new thread on are fabulous wines, and if they are not going to be that epiphany wine, there is pleasure and surprise for an excellent sub $100 Burgundy and it will give you an idea of what fine Burgundy is about.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#36 Post by Evan Tunis » July 9th, 2020, 1:52 pm

yes

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#37 Post by Eric Egan » July 9th, 2020, 2:43 pm

I agree with a lot of the above. You don't have to spend a lot of money to find your *epiphany Burgundy*, you just have to follow what you like and listen to advice about similar producers. My epiphany was with a Guillemot Serpentieres Savigny 1978 that cost me about £30, albeit at auction about 8 years ago. Still, you can some times find good vintages from the '90s for around £50 or so (I bought 4 bottles of the '99 for £38 each a little while back - they're superb). There are plenty of other examples of superb wines at reasonable prices, even from older vintages!
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#38 Post by Tomás Costa » July 9th, 2020, 3:12 pm

I think the problem is in seeing Burgundy as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, rather just another wine region which has a vast array of wines in terms of quality, style and price. If you don't inflate your expectations, you'll be fine. If, however, you find nothing particularly interesting about Pinot Noir that's merely quaffable, you might enter a cycle of financial self-destruction as you look for the wine world's equivalent of Buddha's Enlightenment. I don't know where this mythology comes from, but it's interesting.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#39 Post by Eric Ifune » July 9th, 2020, 3:23 pm

Tomas, I agree with your first post. Yes, there are plenty of fine sub $150 Burgundies, but you have wines from the Dao and Barriada which are similar in style and quality for a quarter or a fifth the price. Some say there is no replacement for Burgundy, but I believe them to be quite insular. They need to go out and taste more. The magic of Burgundy are the well aged versions of Premier and Grand Cru. That's when they achieve their great complexity.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#40 Post by Lee Short » July 9th, 2020, 3:30 pm

Eric Ifune wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 3:23 pm
Tomas, I agree with your first post. Yes, there are plenty of fine sub $150 Burgundies, but you have wines from the Dao and Barriada which are similar in style and quality for a quarter or a fifth the price. Some say there is no replacement for Burgundy, but I believe them to be quite insular. They need to go out and taste more. The magic of Burgundy are the well aged versions of Premier and Grand Cru. That's when they achieve their great complexity.
I've had several wines from Dao and Barriada. More from Douro. I liked most of them, but didn't think any of them were in a similar style to any good burgundy. What wines from those regions are similar in style to burgundy?

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#41 Post by Eric Ifune » July 9th, 2020, 3:37 pm

Quinta de Baixo, Quinta da Pellada, Filipa Pato are starters and imported into the States. The Douro is nothing like Burgundy.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#42 Post by Sean S y d n e y » July 9th, 2020, 3:38 pm

I do not think Dão wines are similar to Burgundy. Burgundy is Burgundy, Dão is Dão, and it's okay. I actually would prefer if people didn't use the adjective Burgundian when they speak about Oregon/Ontario/California/Portuguese/Wherever Pinot Noir grows; I think it is more fair and even more valuable to try to figure out what different terroir can offer rather than assign or dock "points" for being More Burgundian, whatever that means.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#43 Post by Tomás Costa » July 9th, 2020, 3:49 pm

Eric Ifune wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 3:23 pm
Tomas, I agree with your first post. Yes, there are plenty of fine sub $150 Burgundies, but you have wines from the Dao and Barriada which are similar in style and quality for a quarter or a fifth the price. Some say there is no replacement for Burgundy, but I believe them to be quite insular. They need to go out and taste more. The magic of Burgundy are the well aged versions of Premier and Grand Cru. That's when they achieve their great complexity.
No one on this forum is more flattering towards Portuguese wines than you are, Eric, and I can't tell how dearly I appreciate that, but I don't think Touriga Nacional from Dão is the cousin of Pinot Noir from Burgundy anymore than Nebbiolo might be, even though they're all reds from cooler regions, so I'll have to agree with Sean. Certainly not Bairrada, a relatively maritime region whose producers see themselves as Portugal's Bordelais - the Caves São João's Cabernets being evidence of that. That being said, there are excellent Portuguese wines I would classify as Burgundian in their conception, namely Niepoort's Charme, or Rita Marques' Conceito wines. I would certainly recommend those wines to any burgheads, but the terroirs are different: Douro is mostly schist, Dão is mostly granite. The Dão-Burgundy parallel is probably more logical in the whites: I remember my dad tasting a Puligny wine I bought and saying it reminded him of Encruzado.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#44 Post by Dan Kravitz » July 9th, 2020, 4:00 pm

I will make some fairly specific recommendations to the OP (I am writing only about red wines in this post):

Look for 2009 and/or 2010 wines from the Cote de Beaune. There are hundreds available. Appellations I would look for would be:
Pernand
Savigny-les-Beaune (generally agreed best value)
Beaune
Pommard (generally agreed worst value)
Volnay
Chassagne-Montrachet
Monthelie (under the radar and usually friendly)
Auxey-Duresses (under the radar and sometimes surly)
Santenay (another runner in the value sweepstakes)

For ~$100 you can find a wide range of Premier Crus. You can find some Savignys for ~$50, from maybe half a dozen producers.

You have a budget. This ain't rocket science. Look for what's available in your budget and give 'em a try.

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#45 Post by jason stein » July 9th, 2020, 4:02 pm

-duplicate-
Last edited by jason stein on July 9th, 2020, 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#46 Post by jason stein » July 9th, 2020, 4:03 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 4:00 pm
I will make some fairly specific recommendations to the OP (I am writing only about red wines in this post):

Look for 2009 and/or 2010 wines from the Cote de Beaune. There are hundreds available. Appellations I would look for would be:
Pernand
Savigny-les-Beaune (generally agreed best value)
Beaune
Pommard (generally agreed worst value)
Volnay
Chassagne-Montrachet
Monthelie (under the radar and usually friendly)
Auxey-Duresses (under the radar and sometimes surly)
Santenay (another runner in the value sweepstakes)

For ~$100 you can find a wide range of Premier Crus. You can find some Savignys for ~$50, from maybe half a dozen producers.

You have a budget. This ain't rocket science. Look for what's available in your budget and give 'em a try.

Dan Kravitz
Of those, I think Volnay is leaps and bounds beyond the rest, with Chassagne a relatively close second.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#47 Post by Howard Cooper » July 9th, 2020, 4:51 pm

jason stein wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 4:03 pm
Dan Kravitz wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 4:00 pm
I will make some fairly specific recommendations to the OP (I am writing only about red wines in this post):

Look for 2009 and/or 2010 wines from the Cote de Beaune. There are hundreds available. Appellations I would look for would be:
Pernand
Savigny-les-Beaune (generally agreed best value)
Beaune
Pommard (generally agreed worst value)
Volnay
Chassagne-Montrachet
Monthelie (under the radar and usually friendly)
Auxey-Duresses (under the radar and sometimes surly)
Santenay (another runner in the value sweepstakes)

For ~$100 you can find a wide range of Premier Crus. You can find some Savignys for ~$50, from maybe half a dozen producers.

You have a budget. This ain't rocket science. Look for what's available in your budget and give 'em a try.

Dan Kravitz
Of those, I think Volnay is leaps and bounds beyond the rest, with Chassagne a relatively close second.
The problem with red Chassagne is finding them. The best ones like Ramonet and Bernard Moreau are fabulous.
Howard

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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#48 Post by jason stein » July 9th, 2020, 4:57 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 4:51 pm
jason stein wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 4:03 pm
Dan Kravitz wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 4:00 pm
I will make some fairly specific recommendations to the OP (I am writing only about red wines in this post):

Look for 2009 and/or 2010 wines from the Cote de Beaune. There are hundreds available. Appellations I would look for would be:
Pernand
Savigny-les-Beaune (generally agreed best value)
Beaune
Pommard (generally agreed worst value)
Volnay
Chassagne-Montrachet
Monthelie (under the radar and usually friendly)
Auxey-Duresses (under the radar and sometimes surly)
Santenay (another runner in the value sweepstakes)

For ~$100 you can find a wide range of Premier Crus. You can find some Savignys for ~$50, from maybe half a dozen producers.

You have a budget. This ain't rocket science. Look for what's available in your budget and give 'em a try.

Dan Kravitz
Of those, I think Volnay is leaps and bounds beyond the rest, with Chassagne a relatively close second.
The problem with red Chassagne is finding them. The best ones like Ramonet and Bernard Moreau are fabulous.
I do so agree. I have a good amount of Moreau, but have trouble finding Ramonet at good prices. The Moreau Cardeuse is particularly good.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#49 Post by Tomás Costa » July 9th, 2020, 5:02 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 4:51 pm
jason stein wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 4:03 pm
Dan Kravitz wrote:
July 9th, 2020, 4:00 pm
I will make some fairly specific recommendations to the OP (I am writing only about red wines in this post):

Look for 2009 and/or 2010 wines from the Cote de Beaune. There are hundreds available. Appellations I would look for would be:
Pernand
Savigny-les-Beaune (generally agreed best value)
Beaune
Pommard (generally agreed worst value)
Volnay
Chassagne-Montrachet
Monthelie (under the radar and usually friendly)
Auxey-Duresses (under the radar and sometimes surly)
Santenay (another runner in the value sweepstakes)

For ~$100 you can find a wide range of Premier Crus. You can find some Savignys for ~$50, from maybe half a dozen producers.

You have a budget. This ain't rocket science. Look for what's available in your budget and give 'em a try.

Dan Kravitz
Of those, I think Volnay is leaps and bounds beyond the rest, with Chassagne a relatively close second.
The problem with red Chassagne is finding them. The best ones like Ramonet and Bernard Moreau are fabulous.
If you mean Ramonet's Clos de la Boudriotte as one of your examples, I believe it is not difficult at all to find here in Europe in the last half dozen vintages. There's even a 2001 for sale right here in Portugal. It's one of those supposedly terrific QPR reds I've read a bunch of times around here, but then CT wasn't nearly as enthusiastic and I ended up not committing to it. Maybe I should reconsider.
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Re: Approaching age 50 - is it too late for Burgundy?

#50 Post by maureen nelson » July 9th, 2020, 6:21 pm

I read the title of this thread and the thought that popped into my head was “it’s never too late for love!”

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