Is this a wine?

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Neal.Mollen
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Is this a wine?

#1 Post by Neal.Mollen » July 24th, 2020, 9:13 am

More pointedly, is this a wine you would put in your mouth?

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If so, let me know what you think, because it gets a big no-no-no from me
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Re: Is this a wine?

#2 Post by mark rudner » July 24th, 2020, 9:15 am

mix with ice and rum?

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Re: Is this a wine?

#3 Post by JackW e i s s b e r g » July 24th, 2020, 9:40 am

The name is challenging. Evocative of something you might be tested for... But in defense of what might be great, I know next to nothing about this new-ish natural wine movement and it may well be completely amazing.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#4 Post by PeterH » July 24th, 2020, 9:42 am

Why not? Hazy IPAs are all the rage. I'd be careful about keeping it cool before opening, though. Cool, as in refrigerated.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#5 Post by Brian S t o t t e r » July 24th, 2020, 9:46 am

First read that as "colostrum". No thanks.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#6 Post by Josh Grossman » July 24th, 2020, 9:46 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:13 am
More pointedly, is this a wine you would put in your mouth?

Image

If so, let me know what you think, because it gets a big no-no-no from me
I'm pretty sure it's in the early stages of Methode Champenoise? I think they just forgot to rack it?

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Re: Is this a wine?

#7 Post by PeterH » July 24th, 2020, 9:48 am

JackW e i s s b e r g wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:40 am
The name is challenging. Evocative of something you might be tested for... But in defense of what might be great, I know next to nothing about this new-ish natural wine movement and it may well be completely amazing.
I had to look it up. Means "goblin".

I looked up cellartracker notes too. As expected, it is characterized as "explosive". At $26 it is an easy pass, even if I was curious.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#8 Post by mmarcellus » July 24th, 2020, 9:50 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:13 am
More pointedly, is this a wine you would put in your mouth?

Image

If so, let me know what you think, because it gets a big no-no-no from me
There you go, reading the NYT again. [wink.gif]

I would certainly give this a try, based on Eric's rec and Brix's general reputation. I have had some excellent Pet-Nats that were at least as cloudy as this one. I've had some nasty Pet-Nats as well, but cloudiness and a crown cap aren't particularly strong indicators of quality one way or the other.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#9 Post by Robert Sand » July 24th, 2020, 9:55 am

It seems to be a Petillante, a sparkling wine with quite low pressure ... from Riesling ... could be good or bad ... I would certainly taste or at least smell it, but only for free ...

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Re: Is this a wine?

#10 Post by AD Northup » July 24th, 2020, 10:09 am

Guess this is a different vineyard than Kick Ranch?
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Re: Is this a wine?

#11 Post by Andrew Kotowski » July 24th, 2020, 10:11 am

Robert Sand wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:55 am
It seems to be a Petillante, a sparkling wine with quite low pressure ... from Riesling ... could be good or bad ... I would certainly taste or at least smell it, but only for free ...
I had a similar styled wine at Les Enfants du Marche in Paris with Michel Abood and I thought it was great. Sent him a ping with a link to this thread, as he can talk for days about the style.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#12 Post by Kevin Porter » July 24th, 2020, 10:14 am

I'm not hip(ster) enough to be on the Pet Nat bandwagon but I'd certainly try it. I recently really enjoyed Birichino's "Petulant Naturel".

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Re: Is this a wine?

#13 Post by Michel Abood » July 24th, 2020, 10:55 am

Disclaimer= we sell this in NY/NJ

It's a Pet'nat of Riesling from Kickon Ranch in Santa Barbara. So no secondary fermentation, the first fermentation finishes in the bottle, and therefore there's no fining/filtering (which explains the cloudiness, but think of it as col fondo). It does need to be very cold when opening as it can get a little excited to be shared (and they have bottle tags explaining why, due to tartrate crystals deposits). If you know me, I have very low tolerance for dirty/flawed wines, even natural ones, and hate hate hate hate mouse (it doesn't help that I'm super sensitive to it). Jody and Emily make soulful, terroir-driven wines that just happen to be low/no sulfur.

That said the wine is clean and refreshing, I would urge you to at least try it before passing judgement.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#14 Post by K John Joseph » July 24th, 2020, 11:06 am

I think Petnat tastes kind of like grape beer
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Re: Is this a wine?

#15 Post by Scott Brunson » July 24th, 2020, 11:28 am

mark rudner wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:15 am
mix with ice and rum?
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Re: Is this a wine?

#16 Post by T. Melloni » July 24th, 2020, 11:37 am

From their site:
This wine is fermented spontaneously.
Other Information: Cobolorum means “goblin,” which is our affectionate nickname for the Kick On Ranch Riesling vines. We call this undisgorged, no-added-anything pét-nat our Naughty Goblin Bubbles, as it must be kept very cold or it may leap out of the bottle to greet you! Natural sediment will rise from the bottom after uncapping, to create the “cloud of delicious.”

I generally have disliked many of the "natural" wines I have tasted. They taste flawed/dirty to me. But in the case of Pet-Nat, I have started to develop an appreciation. I don't think of them as wine, however. (Bias.) I put them in a category of a cider or even a sour beer.
La Garagista from Vermont (Deirdre Heekin) makes some fantastic Pet Nat wines - floral, vibrant and not at all dirty.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#17 Post by Neal.Mollen » July 24th, 2020, 11:38 am

Michel Abood wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 10:55 am
Disclaimer= we sell this in NY/NJ

It's a Pet'nat of Riesling from Kickon Ranch in Santa Barbara. So no secondary fermentation, the first fermentation finishes in the bottle, and therefore there's no fining/filtering (which explains the cloudiness, but think of it as col fondo). It does need to be very cold when opening as it can get a little excited to be shared (and they have bottle tags explaining why, due to tartrate crystals deposits). If you know me, I have very low tolerance for dirty/flawed wines, even natural ones, and hate hate hate hate mouse (it doesn't help that I'm super sensitive to it). Jody and Emily make soulful, terroir-driven wines that just happen to be low/no sulfur.

That said the wine is clean and refreshing, I would urge you to at least try it before passing judgement.
Congrats on having a wine you sell in the NYT! Hope you get emptied out.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#18 Post by Thomas Keim » July 24th, 2020, 11:58 am

Robert Sand wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:55 am
It seems to be a Petillante, a sparkling wine with quite low pressure ... from Riesling ... could be good or bad ... I would certainly taste or at least smell it, but only for free ...
I would love to try this - and it's from one of California's best Riesling sites (not that there's that many of them). I love wines like this, they have the shelf life of milk so you have to drink them fast -
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Re: Is this a wine?

#19 Post by A G Aguirre » July 24th, 2020, 12:45 pm

I have had a few vintages and bottles of this in the last few years. It’s an experience. The first time I had it was at Lolo in SF. The waitress had clearly never opened this before because it was a mess. The bubbles just kept overflowing in the ice bucket. Needs to be ICE cold and the crown cap opened carefully. Since then we’ve learned our lesson. It’s a tasty, refreshing wine using grapes from one of more famous Riesling vineyards in CA. It’s a bit “natty” but fun overall to drink. Certainly not a substitute for Champagne. Their other wines are solid too. Had a decade long vertical of their still riesling at a tasting last year and was pretty impressed, considering the minimalist approach.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#20 Post by Ben M a n d l e r » July 24th, 2020, 5:07 pm

I'd definitely give it a shot, though I really dislike these wines bottled under crown cap because it's so hard to effectively open them carefully. Not a problem most of the time, but I had a bad experience earlier this year that has made me a little gun-shy. Straight out of the fridge I opened the crown cap, the pressure nearly blew the bottle opener out of my hand, a serrated piece of metal landed 25 feet away, and maybe a quarter of the contents of the bottle spilled out onto the table. I wouldn't expect that from a pet-nat, since I would expect it should be easy to control the end pressure by bottling at the right RS level, but here we are.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#21 Post by Marshall Manning » July 24th, 2020, 9:12 pm

I'll try any wine once just to see if I like it.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#22 Post by Andrew Kotowski » July 24th, 2020, 9:37 pm

Marshall Manning wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:12 pm
I'll try any wine once just to see if I like it.
It IS a Riesling, after all ;)
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Re: Is this a wine?

#23 Post by IlkkaL » July 24th, 2020, 10:39 pm

Andrew Kotowski wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 10:11 am
Robert Sand wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:55 am
It seems to be a Petillante, a sparkling wine with quite low pressure ... from Riesling ... could be good or bad ... I would certainly taste or at least smell it, but only for free ...
I had a similar styled wine at Les Enfants du Marche in Paris with Michel Abood and I thought it was great. Sent him a ping with a link to this thread, as he can talk for days about the style.
I also had this at a party once and was extremely positively surprised even to the point where I could see myself actually buying a bottle. I suppose this was largely due to it not being all that strange/natty in the end but instead really refreshing and drinkable. On the other hand I've had some Pet-Nats that were truly disgusting, for example an Alsatian Riesling Pet-Nat with 14.5% ABV and very strong oxidative notes - a glass seemed like too much to endure.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#24 Post by Rich K0rz€nk0 » July 25th, 2020, 12:09 am

I'd give it a spin. Not sure if I'd actively seek it out, however if I did see it in a shop I'd bag it for a what the hell. Appreciate Michel's notes on it.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#25 Post by Howard Cooper » July 25th, 2020, 4:39 am

Why not? I could see drinking this the day before my next colonoscopy. It looks like it would clean me out pretty well and could not taste as bad as other things I have used for that purpose.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#26 Post by Al Osterheld » July 25th, 2020, 6:48 am

Sure, I'd drink it. Have tasted a lot hazier wine coming out of the press.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#27 Post by tcavallo » July 25th, 2020, 6:53 am

Look at the bubbling at the surface in the photo, this was obviously shaken up prior to photographing, putting all the yeast and sediment from the bottom of the bottle back into suspension. You can store any undisgorged wines upright for a few days/weeks to settle them and they definitely don't look so hazy. Like mentioned above, think of it like Col Fondo. You can pour it off or shake it up.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#28 Post by Chris Johnson » July 25th, 2020, 7:05 am

We’ve met Jody and Emily a couple of times, very nice people and they are doing some neat things down here in San Diego. We went and tasted with them after reading Ken Zinns mention them a couple of times. My wife and her friends enjoy this. One friend did make the mistake of not getting it cold enough and made a bit of a mess in her kitchen. It reminds me of drinking some Belgian beers, have had the same haze and bottle oozing happen plenty of times. Their wine is clean tasting, no funk. I’ve had the Birchino Pet Nat and they are easily on the same level.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#29 Post by A G Aguirre » July 25th, 2020, 12:04 pm

Update: decided to pop the last bottle of this we have. When else is the NYT gonna profile an obscure 200 case pet nat?Bought a year ago (2018 vintage) and it’s been sitting upright in our regular fridge since then. Popped the crown cap and the bubbles didn’t stop overflowing for 2 minutes (we let it sit in the sink.) After it settled down (and lost a few ozs), we poured. Might have been the loveliest example I’ve had of this wine. It had a distinctly floral aspect, with crisp, tart stone fruit notes. Acid was totally in balance. No VA or even funk. When these are on, they are great!
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Re: Is this a wine?

#30 Post by Al Osterheld » July 25th, 2020, 12:54 pm

Bryan Harrington made one (intentional) pet nat, called Pet Bet, from a skin fermented Pinot Gris. Not nearly as hazy as the bottle above, but equally explosive. It was my favorite thing to sip while pouring at his two open houses in November and December. Nothing profound, but tasty and refreshing.

When opening, it helps to hold at 45 degree angle and try to "burp" the crown cap. Even then, helps to do it over a sink with a glass handy.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#31 Post by Michel Abood » July 25th, 2020, 1:11 pm

A G Aguirre wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 12:04 pm
Update: decided to pop the last bottle of this we have. When else is the NYT gonna profile an obscure 200 case pet nat?Bought a year ago (2018 vintage) and it’s been sitting upright in our regular fridge since then. Popped the crown cap and the bubbles didn’t stop overflowing for 2 minutes (we let it sit in the sink.) After it settled down (and lost a few ozs), we poured. Might have been the loveliest example I’ve had of this wine. It had a distinctly floral aspect, with crisp, tart stone fruit notes. Acid was totally in balance. No VA or even funk. When these are on, they are great!
Agreed, the 2018 was his best vintage until the 2019. Every year, he's been getting a better handle on both the pressure and the quality. You do need to get the bottle ice cold, and hold it at a 45 degree angle, with a glass underneath to catch what comes out. But it's lovely, fresh, and most importantly for a natural wine, CLEAN.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#32 Post by Eric Ifune » July 25th, 2020, 3:17 pm

Is this like a neuerwein? Traditional in some parts of Germany. New wine served during harvest.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#33 Post by Al Osterheld » July 25th, 2020, 3:27 pm

Isn't neuer wein often still fermenting with noticeable RS? Pet nats are typically dry or essentially dry and partly ferment in a closed bottle to trap the CO2.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#34 Post by Mark Y » July 25th, 2020, 3:38 pm

Would love to try if someone brought it to a tasting.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#35 Post by Dan Kravitz » July 25th, 2020, 3:46 pm

The only thing worse than a raw wine is a cooked wine.

Sorry.

I would try it, although my pet-nat experiences have been one OK, the other ~half-dozen undrinkable. I agree with the comparison to cider, but I'm better with the residual solids in cider than in wine.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#36 Post by Gary Schulte » July 25th, 2020, 6:15 pm

My experience in making and tasting a few pet-nats is that not all varieties & yeast combinations make a good pet-nat. Thus far I would say that chenin blanc and, separately, auxerrois provides a good platform for terrific pet-nats. On the other hand I would say that chardonnay, at least in my hands, makes a yeasty beer wine. For the small experiment of chardonnay pet-nats I have left I'm now doing a quick disgorge before drinking. Tastes decent when disgorged but not exactly a commercial method. Also on the yeast front in pet-nats I think some nucleate bubbles to readily when opening whereas others when chilled well lie low in the bottle until a few minutes after opening. In those cases nice fine relatively clean bubbly can be poured for a few glasses before sediment starts to appear.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#37 Post by Mel Knox » July 25th, 2020, 6:46 pm

Maybe we have two categories of wine drinkers.
1/wine snobs...us...we want 'normal;' wine from vineyards better than the average vineyard
2/people who drink to party, to have fun, get buzzed...maybe this direction includes txakolina, pet nat, piquette, Sangria etc and ends God Knows where...white Port and lemon juice??

I'd try wines like this one from Kick On Ranch, but probably wouldn't buy a bottle.

Oak Knoll winery used to make a raspberry wine...maybe they still do...fantastic stuff ...Since raspberries are more expensive than grapes, it can't have made a lot of money for them.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#38 Post by Marshall Manning » July 25th, 2020, 8:07 pm

Andrew Kotowski wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:37 pm
Marshall Manning wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:12 pm
I'll try any wine once just to see if I like it.
It IS a Riesling, after all ;)
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Re: Is this a wine?

#39 Post by Ken B r o w n » July 25th, 2020, 10:06 pm

T. Melloni wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 11:37 am
But in the case of Pet-Nat, I have started to develop an appreciation. I don't think of them as wine, however. (Bias.) I put them in a category of a cider or even a sour beer. La Garagista from Vermont (Deirdre Heekin) makes some fantastic Pet Nat wines - floral, vibrant and not at all dirty.
+1 on both counts. To wine geek friends, I say "it's a distant cousin of Lambrusco". To beer/cider people, the pitch is that if they like Kriek or Rare Barrel, they should try this. I've never had J Brix version but La Garagista is fantastic and far from cheap at around $50/bottle.

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Re: Is this a wine?

#40 Post by A G Aguirre » July 25th, 2020, 11:19 pm

Mel Knox wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:46 pm
Maybe we have two categories of wine drinkers.
1/wine snobs...us...we want 'normal;' wine from vineyards better than the average vineyard
2/people who drink to party, to have fun, get buzzed...maybe this direction includes txakolina, pet nat, piquette, Sangria etc and ends God Knows where...white Port and lemon juice??

I'd try wines like this one from Kick On Ranch, but probably wouldn't buy a bottle.

Oak Knoll winery used to make a raspberry wine...maybe they still do...fantastic stuff ...Since raspberries are more expensive than grapes, it can't have made a lot of money for them.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#41 Post by Jason T » July 26th, 2020, 2:28 am

Andrew Kotowski wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 10:11 am
Robert Sand wrote:
July 24th, 2020, 9:55 am
It seems to be a Petillante, a sparkling wine with quite low pressure ... from Riesling ... could be good or bad ... I would certainly taste or at least smell it, but only for free ...
I had a similar styled wine at Les Enfants du Marche in Paris with Michel Abood and I thought it was great. Sent him a ping with a link to this thread, as he can talk for days about the style.
Same, though not with Michel Abood. It was delicious.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#42 Post by Jason T » July 26th, 2020, 2:34 am

Mel Knox wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:46 pm
Maybe we have two categories of wine drinkers.
1/wine snobs...us...we want 'normal;' wine from vineyards better than the average vineyard
2/people who drink to party, to have fun, get buzzed...maybe this direction includes txakolina, pet nat, piquette, Sangria etc and ends God Knows where...white Port and lemon juice??
Pet nat isn’t just about getting buzzed. Fun? Can be.

Le enfants du marche is a pretty damn great restaurant and I think they know a thing or two about the wine they serve, and it paired beautifully with their dish.

Are there crap pet nats? Yes. But there’s a lot of crap regular wine as well.

The cloudiness and crown cap turn people off, fine. But at least for the bottles I had at Le enfants du marche, I’m guessing, if they were served blind to Berserkers more times than not you’d find them enjoyable.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#43 Post by Jay Miller » July 26th, 2020, 4:18 am

Jason T wrote:
July 26th, 2020, 2:34 am

Are there crap pet nats? Yes. But there’s a lot of crap regular wine as well.
I've had a number of wonderful pet nats. I've had a number of lousy pet nats. What puzzles me are the ones I think are lousy but other people say "that's how it's supposed to taste".
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Re: Is this a wine?

#44 Post by mmarcellus » July 26th, 2020, 5:41 am

Mel Knox wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:46 pm
Maybe we have two categories of wine drinkers.
1/wine snobs...us...we want 'normal;' wine from vineyards better than the average vineyard
2/people who drink to party, to have fun, get buzzed...maybe this direction includes txakolina, pet nat, piquette, Sangria etc and ends God Knows where...white Port and lemon juice??
Hey, nothing wrong with WPLJ. "You take the bottle, you take the can, Shake it up fine, you get a good good wine"

1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive. Context is everything. I suspect that most here, if they got a pour of something like this in some little place in the boondocks of France, Italy, or even California (a time machine might be necessary for that last one), would take the wine on its own terms and would at least find it charming, assuming it was well made.

I would add a third category as well. Curiosity about the different expressions of grapes found in wines made in different regions and by different individuals. Of course you have to be prepared for disappointment, but anybody in category 1 who has opened more than a handful of bottles of Burgundy should be able to handle that.
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Marc Hauser
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Re: Is this a wine?

#45 Post by Marc Hauser » July 26th, 2020, 6:47 am

Mel Knox wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:46 pm
Maybe we have two categories of wine drinkers.
1/wine snobs...us...we want 'normal;' wine from vineyards better than the average vineyard
2/people who drink to party, to have fun, get buzzed...maybe this direction includes txakolina, pet nat, piquette, Sangria etc and ends God Knows where...white Port and lemon juice??

I'd try wines like this one from Kick On Ranch, but probably wouldn't buy a bottle.

Oak Knoll winery used to make a raspberry wine...maybe they still do...fantastic stuff ...Since raspberries are more expensive than grapes, it can't have made a lot of money for them.
Do you also hate Top 40?
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Re: Is this a wine?

#46 Post by Neal.Mollen » July 26th, 2020, 7:53 am

Mel Knox wrote:
July 25th, 2020, 6:46 pm
Maybe we have two categories of wine drinkers.
1/wine snobs...us...we want 'normal;' wine from vineyards better than the average vineyard
2/people who drink to party, to have fun, get buzzed...maybe this direction includes txakolina, pet nat, piquette, Sangria etc and ends God Knows where...white Port and lemon juice??

I'd try wines like this one from Kick On Ranch, but probably wouldn't buy a bottle.

Oak Knoll winery used to make a raspberry wine...maybe they still do...fantastic stuff ...Since raspberries are more expensive than grapes, it can't have made a lot of money for them.
There may be something to this, Mel. I don't really "party" any more and definitely don't drink to get buzzed. I don't drink hard liquor of any sort more than 3 or 4 times a year, don't really get the whole cocktail thing at all. I drink wine because I like how it tastes. I have little to no curiosity in "I wonder what would this taste like if you fermented it" beverages.

That may well make me a "snob," but I am finding it impossible to muster even a little concern about that.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#47 Post by Mel Knox » July 26th, 2020, 8:08 am

Neal,

I am pretty much in your boat. When I was younger I was much more open to the second category. Raspberry wine, watermelon flavored wine...I've just had a little pet-gnat, not really my thing. People always say, Well, you have to try a good one....not much I can say about that.

I love distilled spirits,esp Cognac and single malt...but do they love me??

Top 40?? Only when Weird Al makes fun of it.
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Sean S y d n e y
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Re: Is this a wine?

#48 Post by Sean S y d n e y » July 26th, 2020, 8:24 am

Like anything else, there are good and bad pet-nats. I imagine the reaction to them being fizzy and cloudy is the same that some people used to have when confronted with unfamiliar, “exotic” foods. I really enjoyed Delinquente from Australia’s Weeping Juan pet-nat this year; it basically tasted like boozy Five Alive.

That said, I think the style lends itself to what I consider a bit of an endemic cop-out attitude amongst natty-ish producers of “oh, it’s just meant to be fun/glou-glou/not serious” that basically provides a priori indemnification for bad winemaking and mediocre wines.
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Re: Is this a wine?

#49 Post by Andrew Kotowski » July 26th, 2020, 8:34 am

Some of the reaction here is likely driven by the Brix pic being hazy orange, like a NE-style IPA. Big difference between that and the pic I posted of the 2017 Melsheimer Rurale, which looked (and drank) like a more typical “glass of wine.”
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Re: Is this a wine?

#50 Post by Andrew Kotowski » July 27th, 2020, 12:35 pm

Funny timing on this - NYT just featured your bottle in a “12 Sparkling Summer Wines” article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/dini ... ogin-email

Paragraph in the article is a rehash of this thread - serve VERY cold with a “ tangy, spicy, citrusy delight” TN.
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