Palate sensitivity over time...

Another thread reminding me of something…

I think many things we notice about our wine tasting experiences are the product of practice and previous exposure. (Obvious platitude.)

“Well, D’uh,” you say, but as it relates to flaws it may be what accounts for some people noticing more flaws…more Brett, TCA, etc…than they used to.

Over time, I have become much less ‘tolerant’ of TCA, for example. Perhaps it is because with more experience I can more readily define the experience than a newbie would.

I also seem to notice Brett more readily and disdain more and more wines that have less and less of it.
This also plays into washing stemware, for me. More and more, I find I have to hand rinse any glass that’s been through the dishwasher (usually stemless like the Reidel O line) in order to enjoy the wine we are drinking. We’ve been through many different dishwasher soaps but there are none that are ‘invisible’ IMHO. My wife and bro-in-law used to mock me, but in side by side blind tasting of the same bottle into hand rinsed vs. dishwasher ‘corrupted’ wine, they have come to agree. If never mentioned, they may have never noticed?

Do you find that in addition to becoming more skilled at the positive side of tasting, you have become less tolerant of certain flaws?

Oh, add VA to my ‘turn offs’ list.

I suspect I may be talking out my butt, so to speak, but it’s been on my mind.

Definitely agree re: TCA. I’m much more sensitive to the possibility, and less willing to give the benefit of doubt there. Not sure that’s a good thing

Can’t say there’s been a change in preferences around VA or brett. I find I enjoy both to a degree. Even if I had a magic wand to eliminate brett from all the bottles in my cellar, I’d probably choose not to use it

I’m unfortunately sensitive to TCA. Even the slightest amount throws me off of a bottle quickly. It hasn’t changed over the years except being able to know that it’s tca and not just that a bottle is “off”. I do find that my friends in the industry are more sensitive than friends outside the industry. Could be something that develops.

I have not noticed sensitivity changes for Brett or TCA.

100% behind you on the soap. Opened three different bottles of bubbles at a friend’s house over the course of a couple of days. The taste in their hand washed glasses was significantly off compared with our own glasses. Bonus rinsing didn’t seem to help.

When we cleaned our glasses with their soap, we figured out that the soap was the issue.

Being able to post in this thread was about the only upside to that adventure.

I have become extremely sensitive to TCA and Brett both over time, it’s perhaps useful professionally but kind of a nuisance otherwise. Buying apples is hard, many of them seem corked.

on a tangent, some time ago I found myself looking more for flaws rather than enjoying the wine. My reviews and evaluation focused on the negative. It’s taken effort to turn that around. Jeremy’s reviews are a good example of finding the good in wine.

My senses have dulled over the years. I haven’t noticed a change in my abilities to perceive TCA or Brett, but my ability to perceive the high toned volatiles have definitely receded

I agree Anton and have found the same.

I think a lot of it is just coming to recognize what something is over time. Heat damage is another big one many people never get. When I first got started tasting wine and was not terribly savvy about buying off the shelf, I had a number of older Bordeaux I liked that were heat damaged. I did not know it at the time because I had no tasting experience with older wines. These wines were pleasant and even somewhat complex, but I did not know that they should have had a lot more body and freshness.

And then after about a year, I had the opportunity to obtain some older Bordeaux that had been brilliantly stored- including a couple of bottles that were recently ex-chateau. In an instant I realized what I had been missing, and from that day to this I am able to discern heat damage- and even the degrees of it the broader my experience becomes.

Alan- I can relate to your sentiments as well. I went through that phase a while back before turning in the other direction. Now I just find myself being very honest about both the subjective and the objective- which could only come with loads of experience- when they clash. My recent TN for 2002 Ponsot Clos de la Roche VV that was discussed in another thread is a good example. That particular bottle (which is my only experience with the 2002) fell short of expectations based on past experiences with the 1985 and 1991- however I also noted that it was a very beautiful and attractive drink. The reality is that if that had been my first Ponsot ever, I would have loved it. Only with the knowledge and context that comes with time could I see that it could have been even better, while still appreciating and enjoying the actual experience a great deal.

I’m glad someone else notices the dishwasher smell. I’ve known it for years. When I’ve pointed it out no one else seems to notice. There are times I’ve tried to sneak away and rinse my glass heavily to get rid of it. It’s why I’ve always washed my stemware by hand.

On “flaws”, I’ve been accused of ‘always looking for flaws’ because I will point out details in wine people see as negatives. But I don’t think of all that stuff as flaws unless it really distracts from the overall presentation of the wine. I can and do enjoy plenty of wine that has some level of brett and/or VA. Enjoyment isn’t about perfection.

TCA is the exception of course. Both ways. TCA ruins wine for me. I can’t get around it. But I’ve also had friends that are happy to not notice it while poo-pooing wines with brett.

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I’m right there with you. TCA runs along a spectrum itself (less prominent to more prominent), and add to that a person’s sensitivity to it (I’m very sensitive). But corked is corked. Am I more sensitive to it because I am in the business? Not sure. My 10 year old wanted to know what this wine tasting business was all about as I was just getting into the business, so my very kind mentor set up a tasting of 4 wines for her. She pushed one away. I declared it corked; my mentor stuck to his guns that it wasn’t. She knew upon her first experience. (My mentor was a bit miffed as it was a rare wine and a favorite of his.)

So, after all those words, I am going to say that a person’s language to describe wines changes with experience, but not necessarily any sensitivity to flaws. And don’t get me started on brett!

Apples? They go through a chlorine wash?

Don’t go near those bagged “baby” carrots.

Oh, I know about the carrots, but apples are put in cold storage here and I’ve never found any TCA notes on them. Wondering about some of the imported fruits that are treated to a wash, though. It’s difficult to tell with mangoes and papayas, because they might be irradiated instead.

I do not think that my ability to detect flaws has changed. My identification of such has changed, however, due to experience. I also do not look for flaws- I open the wine to enjoy it. I will say that my preferences have changed a lot, e.g., fruit forward vs structure vs tannic vs oaky etc. And these preferences continue to evolve.

Curious about your comments on heat damage and ability to discern, is it a stewed fruit characteristic or something else? I have certainly had older wines that underperformed expectations and chalked it up to a lesser producer not built to last or a hot vintage that didn’t hold up to time as well. Sometimes a longer decant helped, sometimes not. Thanks.

I definitely notice an off taste to most dishwasher cleaned glasses but some out of the same load have no odor and some do, sometimes it blows off when in the cabinet, sometimes it doesn’t which I can’t explain. Most of the time a quick sink wash followed by coating the glass with a small pour knocks it out. More challenging when having multiple wines at a dinner party. Downside of thin delicate crystal is that a cloth wipe is dangerous for the glass and my hands.

Early on, I was told that soap can linger on the glass (on a microscopic level—not sure this is true and would appreciate commentary from any of you chemists) and so I chose not to use it for quite some time. I have found that soap isn’t necessary to clean stems either by hand or with the dishwasher, so long as hot water is used.

I think I’ve gotten more sensitive to TCA over the years. Not sure if that’s something that happens because of experience or age, but I’m generally one of the first to pick it out where I wasn’t when I was younger. It seems there is often a disagreement about TCA, and I’m not sure why…my feeling is that if one person picks it up, it’s probably there, just in a concentration low enough for some to not notice it.

American oak

Dishwasher detergent

TCA

What is Brett?

This is me too.

Yup, carrots too.

With repeated experiences, I think we just get a little better at knowing what something is, and also knowing if we like or do not like it. I just don’t give many bottles with Brett or mousiness the benefit of the doubt. TCA, none at all.