Newbie question.
I had a Chateauneuf du pape. Loved it.
Through my research, I discovered that a lot of Rhone style wines are made in the Central Coast of CA.
I know there are tons of huge variables, but how do California Rhone style wines compare of French Rhone style wines?
Is it logical to think, “I like French Rhone wines so I will buy the CA version of that style instead of a French version?”
Craig, if you tell us what it was you had, we might be able to offer better answers
2004 M. Chapoutier Chateauneuf-du-pape Croix de Bois.
It was amazing.
Personally I find the west coast US version of French wines a cheap imitation at worst and a different but enjoyable wine at best. They might have some similar notes and remind you of the old world favorite, but the weather and soil is so different, it’s never going to be a dead ringer. If you want to enjoy US wines, enjoy them for what they are, but don’t try to reproduce an old world experience.
I think you’re doing yourself a disservice if you don’t taste for yourself. However, generally, I find Central Coast GSMs to be riper, bigger/fuller, more alcoholic, and more extracted. Generally, I find Rhone GSMs to be more rustic, earthy, elegant/finessed. You’ll still find exceptions to the “rule” depending on producer, site, vintage, etc., so, once again, I think it’s worth exploring for yourself.
Personally, I’m probably in the minority on this site as I prefer Central Coast Rhone-styled wines vs actual Southern Rhone wines. As for Syrah (Northern Rhone), I love it from everywhere, both warm and cool climates, and I really just enjoy the variety that’s available around the world.
Cheers!
Ok, based on my past experiences with Chapoutier (not what you drank), the answer is YES there is a high likelihood that California versions will be available.
This is what I’m thinking as well. While 2004 was a fairly restrained year, Chapoutier is not an especially old school winemaker.
That doesn’t make any sense to me. I like Italian sports cars, so I buy a Corvette?
The CA “versions” are not a replacement, but their own thing…
I don’t agree with this. They may not be the same, but they can scratch a very similar itch. I like white Burgundy and certain US Chardonnay as well. They don’t have to be identical.
If you’re a newbie, buy and taste wines from everywhere. Test your palate and find out what you like and do not like. Once you find what you like, buy a lot of it, and enjoy.
Thanks for the input. Greg K, when you say a “restrained year”, what does that mean?
2004 in CdP is what we would call a somewhat “off” vintage, meaning not heralded as one of the better ones. Though really, the “better” vintages in chateauneuf tend to be warmer, and closer to Paso style. Still, I don’t think you will find any central coast wines much like that chapoutier. There are a large number of southern Rhône wines that you could try, from lots of regions around Chateauneuf du Pape, that aren’t terribly expensive. Explore those, explore some central coast versions, don’t spend a huge amount on anything, don’t buy multiples of anything, try them and learn what you like. If you’re early on in learning about wine, you will likely follow a path many of us have taken, where the bigger wines have lots of impact, taste good, but gradually you discover that elegance and complexity are of equal or greater value, and generally found in different types of wines. If you decide you love the big wines, no harm done, stay on that path. If you eventually shift away from those, you don’t want a cellar full of bottles you rarely drink.
Yes, that’s right. I’ve had Chapoutier from restrained years in the 90s and the styles clearly stood out to be more unrestrained and outside of those traditional-style Rhone wines. Pretty much akin to the less-than few CA versions I’ve had then.
2004 was a relatively cool year in the Rhône, so the wines are leaner than in the surrounding years - lower in alcohol and have a bit less fruit. That’s not going to be universal, but generally true. I’m a big fan of the 2004 northern Rhônes for current drinking - Ramon and I (and some others) did a dinner to check in on them just before COVID and they were great.
Chapoutier tends to be a more “modern” winemaker - I.e. more oak, more fruit, etc. That will mean more similarities with California producers. So you might find that certain California wines, while not the same, provide a similar experience to what you got from the Chapoutier.
You also don’t tend to find as many producers in California working with the full spectrum of Rhone varietals in their blends, tending to focus mainly on the ‘Big 3’ of Grenache Syrah and Mourvèdre. Those other varieties usually carry more savory, herbal tones in the blends, reduce a lot of the fruit prominence. Tablas Creek definitely being a noteworthy exception, but certainly others worth looking out for.
You may also look for fruit sources from cooler areas of California, which ‘can’ help the wines carry more acidity and soften some of the fruit and alcohol intensity. Not a 100% certainty, but a good guideline.
One thing to bear in mind is that most Chateauneuf is primarily grenache, while a lot of California GSMs have larger proportions of syrah and mourvedre, giving them a different flavor profile and structure.
I haven’t explored Central Coast GSMs much. Unti in Sonoma makes good grenaches with less than 25% syrah and mourvedre combined that are not over the top (the '16 is a relatively low 14.8%): Unti Vineyards - 404 Error
You are historically correct, of course, regarding Grenache. However, see below for changes which have and are occurring:
“Because of the ongoing problems that recent vintages have heaped upon Grenache, there is a strong movement in the region toward planting more of the less-common (until now) varieties allowed in the appellation, like Cinsault, Counoise, Terret Noir and even Vaccarèse, which had dwindled to a mere handful of vines by the late 2000s. A few years ago, I began to notice that an increasing number of producers were including white grapes, or increasing their use of them, likely in an effort to mitigate the power of the increased percentages of Mourvèdre and Syrah in their wines. There’s little doubt that the general style of Châteauneuf-du-Pape, which in the vast majority of cases is a blended wine, is starting to change here and there, and I’m betting that the pace will only accelerate as growers and winemakers deal with today’s agricultural reality.”
Interesting.
So it’s clear to others, that passage, by Josh Raynolds, refers to the Southern Rhone, not California.
I did not mean to confuse anyone. I simply saw your contribution and recalled just having read comments regarding the evolution of cepage in Chateauneuf du Pape. I was simply intending to provide some more recent context.
I only read the passage and presumed it was about Chateauneuf du Pape, the region
“…There’s little doubt that the general style of Châteauneuf-du-Pape, which in the vast majority of cases is a blended wine, is starting to change here and there,…”
In any case, a thought entered my mind on whether this is for the better or for the worse. Admittedly, I’ve had little CdPs post 2005 vintage and, in general, they failed to impress and which, frankly, is shared by most that I drink with.
Now I wonder whether the change in varietal mix would jump start a renaissance.