is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

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Gaudissabois Johan
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is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#1 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » October 2nd, 2020, 9:01 am

Is LES SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status ?

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#2 Post by Josh Grossman » October 2nd, 2020, 9:11 am

Gaudissabois Johan wrote:
October 2nd, 2020, 9:01 am
Is LES SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status ?
If all parts of Clos de Vougeot are than Aux Boudots is probably of the same quality. I think many think of it as the most affordable Vosne 1er though. I don't see anything special about Les Saint Georges though:
https://www.chateau-marsannay.com/wp-co ... -nuits.jpg
Last edited by Josh Grossman on October 2nd, 2020, 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#3 Post by RyanC » October 2nd, 2020, 9:14 am

My view: yes.

In the hands of multiple producers--Chevillon, Gouges, T. Liger-Belair, even Faiveley--and over a long period of time, LSG has regularly yielded wine that is distinctive and exceeds the quality of lower-level GCs. It's also obviously a famous and long-established site.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#4 Post by A Songeur » October 2nd, 2020, 9:35 am

Assuming Clos St Jacques, Amoureuses and Malconsorts also become Grand cru? Or irrespective ?...
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#5 Post by Howard Cooper » October 2nd, 2020, 12:53 pm

Why do you people want more vineyards to get Grand Cru status? All it will do is make prices for the wines from those vineyards go up.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#6 Post by Craig G » October 2nd, 2020, 1:00 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
October 2nd, 2020, 12:53 pm
Why do you people want more vineyards to get Grand Cru status? All it will do is make prices for the wines from those vineyards go up.
It seems to have already happened with Chevillon, though maybe it would go up even more if formalized.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#7 Post by Keith Levenberg » October 2nd, 2020, 1:28 pm

Worthy

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#8 Post by Jean Menwa » October 2nd, 2020, 2:05 pm

Lovely, but I would put a few others ahead of the line like Malconsorts, Les Amour. and CSJ.

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#9 Post by MichaelLee » October 2nd, 2020, 2:52 pm

2010 Faiveley NSG 1er LSG is stunning.

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#10 Post by Jay Miller » October 2nd, 2020, 4:32 pm

Yes, but don't spread it around.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#11 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 2nd, 2020, 4:34 pm

It is worthy. So are a few others, but I do like being able to (barely) afford them.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#12 Post by Jerry Hey » October 2nd, 2020, 7:26 pm

No. Maybe Clos St Jacques, Meursault Perrieres, Cros Parantoux

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#13 Post by Ian S » October 2nd, 2020, 7:33 pm

Why not run the Burgundy status game like the Premier League? The worst Grand Crus are relegated to Premier Crus, and the best Premier Crus are promoted to Grand Crus, say once every 2 or 3 decades. Off hand, I'd bet a few of us can name several GCs that could easily be demoted, and there are already a few worthy 1er candidates for upgrading into GC status. It would be criminal if Les Amoureuses wasn't the first to be awarded GC status.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#14 Post by Scott Brunson » October 3rd, 2020, 4:34 am

Which grand crus are worthy of 1er Cru status? [stirthepothal.gif]
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#15 Post by Sean S y d n e y » October 3rd, 2020, 6:35 am

Scott Brunson wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 4:34 am
Which grand crus are worthy of 1er Cru status? [stirthepothal.gif]
Haven't had them, but I've read and heard anecdotally that Clos des Lambrays is often a bit of a miss.

Other than that, parts of Corton, parts of Clos de Vougeot, parts of Echezeaux, maybe La Grande Rue.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#16 Post by William Kelley » October 3rd, 2020, 7:08 am

Sean S y d n e y wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 6:35 am

Haven't had them, but I've read and heard anecdotally that Clos des Lambrays is often a bit of a miss.
The old Clos des Lambrays wines of the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s and 1940s are about as good as Burgundy gets!


Honestly, these debates often end up being rather arid, as anywhere on the Côte d'Or is quite an exciting place to produce wine, if the sites are farmed at the level that they deserve. Les Saint Georges will be valorized by great viticulture and winemaking, not by writing "Grand Cru" on the label.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#17 Post by Sean S y d n e y » October 3rd, 2020, 7:15 am

William Kelley wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 7:08 am
anywhere on the Côte d'Or is quite an exciting place to produce wine, if the sites are farmed at the level that they deserve.
This comment is worthy of high-level 1er and possibly Grand Cru status. [snort.gif]
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#18 Post by C. Mc Cart » October 3rd, 2020, 7:25 am

I think the current classifications are pretty spot on. CSJ should have been given GC status from the beginning but given prices, I can't imagine any owners are complaining.
Lambrays, like most, reflect their GC status with suitable age.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#19 Post by Keith Levenberg » October 3rd, 2020, 8:21 am

Resting on the current classifications doesn't really work in the case of Les St. Georges because it almost certainly would have been classified grand cru in the original classification on its merits. Henri Gouges didn't let it get considered because he was the mayor of Nuits at the time and a major owner of the cru and apparently didn't want the appearance of impropriety.

It's clearly more of a grand cru than the lesser -Chambertins and Cortons.

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#20 Post by alan weinberg » October 3rd, 2020, 8:24 am

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 8:21 am
Resting on the current classifications doesn't really work in the case of Les St. Georges because it almost certainly would have been classified grand cru in the original classification on its merits. Henri Gouges didn't let it get considered because he was the mayor of Nuits at the time and a major owner of the cru and apparently didn't want the appearance of impropriety.

It's clearly more of a grand cru than the lesser -Chambertins and Cortons.
I read somewhere that it was more of, “I don’t want to pay the fee of getting this classified grand cru.”

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#21 Post by Marcus Dean » October 3rd, 2020, 3:40 pm

William Kelley wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 7:08 am
Sean S y d n e y wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 6:35 am

Haven't had them, but I've read and heard anecdotally that Clos des Lambrays is often a bit of a miss.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#22 Post by David Kubiak » October 3rd, 2020, 9:06 pm

I would argue that the innate qualities of wines from the NSG terroir do not reach grand cru status no matter how impressive they are as examples of their vineyards.

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#23 Post by William Kelley » October 4th, 2020, 12:10 am

David Kubiak wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 9:06 pm
I would argue that the innate qualities of wines from the NSG terroir do not reach grand cru status no matter how impressive they are as examples of their vineyards.
I have had bottles of '30s Nuits from Thomas Bassot, 1940s Gouges, magical Chevillon old and young, Lalou's Boudots, and even, frankly, some vintages of the Mugneret sisters' Chaignots (try the 1999 blind next to DRC's 1999 Echézeaux - not necessarily a foregone conclusion) that would call that assertion into question.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#24 Post by Robert Sand » October 4th, 2020, 1:27 am

NO, if you compare it to the best (better?) 1er Crus North of LSG and the majority of the Grand Crus.
YES, if you compare it with some weak Grand Crus like some examples of Clos Vougeot, Echezeaux, Charmes-Chambertin et al

But imho LSG never showed the finesse and complexity of a real fine Grand Cru even when fully mature, which is only after 25+ years in a good vintage, it usually is a bit foursquare and lacking elegance.
(moreover I often prefer Vaucrains and Boudots)

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#25 Post by Robert Sand » October 4th, 2020, 1:29 am

Sean S y d n e y wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 6:35 am

Haven't had them, but I've read and heard anecdotally that Clos des Lambrays is often a bit of a miss.
I could even call some vintages and Crus of DRC a bit of a miss ...

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#26 Post by Howard Cooper » October 4th, 2020, 4:06 am

William Kelley wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 12:10 am
David Kubiak wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 9:06 pm
I would argue that the innate qualities of wines from the NSG terroir do not reach grand cru status no matter how impressive they are as examples of their vineyards.
I have had bottles of '30s Nuits from Thomas Bassot, 1940s Gouges, magical Chevillon old and young, Lalou's Boudots, and even, frankly, some vintages of the Mugneret sisters' Chaignots (try the 1999 blind next to DRC's 1999 Echézeaux - not necessarily a foregone conclusion) that would call that assertion into question.
I love the wines from MG and have had their 1999 a few times and love it, but IMHO Chaignots is not even their best premier cru. I like their Feusselottes better I think every time I have had them side by side. In fact, there have been times when I have preferred their VR (although this is more a stylistic preference).

I admit, many if not most of the time I have had them side by side has been barrel samples when I have visited there but I also like their Feusselottes better generally (not side by side). That said, I will drink virtually any MG wine. They are a fabulous producer.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#27 Post by William Kelley » October 4th, 2020, 9:59 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 4:06 am
IMHO Chaignots is not even their best premier cru.
I was trying to stay on topic, however!
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#28 Post by A Songeur » October 4th, 2020, 11:41 am

Well then Feusselottes Grand cru??... then why not Ghislaine's best 1er crus?...
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#29 Post by Howard Cooper » October 4th, 2020, 11:53 am

William Kelley wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 9:59 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 4:06 am
IMHO Chaignots is not even their best premier cru.
I was trying to stay on topic, however!
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#30 Post by Greg K » October 4th, 2020, 12:23 pm

A Songeur wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 11:41 am
Well then Feusselottes Grand cru??... then why not Ghislaine's best 1er crus?...
I can’t agree with considering Barthod next to Mugnier and Roumier and thinking that’s what should elevate another Chambolle 1er cru to grand cru status.

This summer a few of us did a blind Roumier vs. Mugnier dinner. Someone brought a 2010 Barthod 1er as a ringer and we all called it as a disappointing bottle of Roumier [snort.gif]
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#31 Post by billnanson » October 5th, 2020, 6:00 am

Robert Sand wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 1:27 am
NO, if you compare it to the best (better?) 1er Crus North of LSG and the majority of the Grand Crus.
YES, if you compare it with some weak Grand Crus like some examples of Clos Vougeot, Echezeaux, Charmes-Chambertin et al

But imho LSG never showed the finesse and complexity of a real fine Grand Cru even when fully mature, which is only after 25+ years in a good vintage, it usually is a bit foursquare and lacking elegance.
(moreover I often prefer Vaucrains and Boudots)
But then you are necessarily ignoring the weak examples of LSG too for your 'YES' comment, Robert...
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#32 Post by Robert Sand » October 5th, 2020, 2:08 pm

billnanson wrote:
October 5th, 2020, 6:00 am
Robert Sand wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 1:27 am
NO, if you compare it to the best (better?) 1er Crus North of LSG and the majority of the Grand Crus.
YES, if you compare it with some weak Grand Crus like some examples of Clos Vougeot, Echezeaux, Charmes-Chambertin et al

But imho LSG never showed the finesse and complexity of a real fine Grand Cru even when fully mature, which is only after 25+ years in a good vintage, it usually is a bit foursquare and lacking elegance.
(moreover I often prefer Vaucrains and Boudots)
But then you are necessarily ignoring the weak examples of LSG too for your 'YES' comment, Robert...
Maybe it wasn´t clear that I was kind of sarcastic -
but the argument of weak Clos Vougeots and Echezeaux always comes up when discussing "new Grand crus" -

So: NO, NSG doesn´t need a Grand Cru !

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#33 Post by Charlie Carnes » October 5th, 2020, 3:24 pm

William Kelley wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 12:10 am
David Kubiak wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 9:06 pm
I would argue that the innate qualities of wines from the NSG terroir do not reach grand cru status no matter how impressive they are as examples of their vineyards.
I have had bottles of '30s Nuits from Thomas Bassot, 1940s Gouges, magical Chevillon old and young, Lalou's Boudots, and even, frankly, some vintages of the Mugneret sisters' Chaignots (try the 1999 blind next to DRC's 1999 Echézeaux - not necessarily a foregone conclusion) that would call that assertion into question.
Great call on the sisters' Chaignots. That wine always does it for me!

As to the LSG becoming GC, it really doesn't matter to me. After all, a rose by any other name...
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#34 Post by Charlie Carnes » October 5th, 2020, 3:24 pm

Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 8:21 am
Resting on the current classifications doesn't really work in the case of Les St. Georges because it almost certainly would have been classified grand cru in the original classification on its merits. Henri Gouges didn't let it get considered because he was the mayor of Nuits at the time and a major owner of the cru and apparently didn't want the appearance of impropriety.

It's clearly more of a grand cru than the lesser -Chambertins and Cortons.
Cool story!
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#35 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » October 9th, 2020, 12:07 am

Friends,

Clive Coates once said that there was no need for a new grand cru. And if lets SAINT GEORGES were to be elevated than what with CLOS-St_JACQUES, AMOUREUSES or, even more so, VOSNE CROS PARANTOUX made legendary by the late great Henri Jayer? But if LES SAINT-GEORGES is not elevated : is that not unfair to the village of Nuits?

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#36 Post by Howard Cooper » October 9th, 2020, 4:00 am

alan weinberg wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 8:24 am
Keith Levenberg wrote:
October 3rd, 2020, 8:21 am
Resting on the current classifications doesn't really work in the case of Les St. Georges because it almost certainly would have been classified grand cru in the original classification on its merits. Henri Gouges didn't let it get considered because he was the mayor of Nuits at the time and a major owner of the cru and apparently didn't want the appearance of impropriety.

It's clearly more of a grand cru than the lesser -Chambertins and Cortons.
I read somewhere that it was more of, “I don’t want to pay the fee of getting this classified grand cru.”
Shouldn't the word "fee" be changed to "taxes"?
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#37 Post by Howard Cooper » October 9th, 2020, 4:02 am

Gaudissabois Johan wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 12:07 am
Friends,

Clive Coates once said that there was no need for a new grand cru. And if lets SAINT GEORGES were to be elevated than what with CLOS-St_JACQUES, AMOUREUSES or, even more so, VOSNE CROS PARANTOUX made legendary by the late great Henri Jayer? But if LES SAINT-GEORGES is not elevated : is that not unfair to the village of Nuits?

SINCERELY JOHAN
Fair to Nuits? Should we also have Grand Crus from Santenay and Savigny to be fair to them? This seems like the worst possible reason to change classifications.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#38 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » October 9th, 2020, 4:45 am

dear Howard,

You did not understand me. Nuits solely has no grand cru because mayor GOUGES did not partcipate in the procedure at the time. -Otherwise LES SAINT GEORGES would have been grand cru. That is not he case in SANTENAY... PLEASE!!!!
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#39 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » October 9th, 2020, 5:01 am

Greg K wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 12:23 pm
A Songeur wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 11:41 am
Well then Feusselottes Grand cru??... then why not Ghislaine's best 1er crus?...
I can’t agree with considering Barthod next to Mugnier and Roumier and thinking that’s what should elevate another Chambolle 1er cru to grand cru status.

This summer a few of us did a blind Roumier vs. Mugnier dinner. Someone brought a 2010 Barthod 1er as a ringer and we all called it as a disappointing bottle of Roumier [snort.gif]
Yeah we all know you don’t care for barthod for whatever reason. I’ve done quite a few roumier and barthod cras blind head to heads and most ppl preferred the barthod version (most recently 09 and 13) but ymmv.

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#40 Post by Greg K » October 9th, 2020, 5:14 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 5:01 am
Greg K wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 12:23 pm
A Songeur wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 11:41 am
Well then Feusselottes Grand cru??... then why not Ghislaine's best 1er crus?...
I can’t agree with considering Barthod next to Mugnier and Roumier and thinking that’s what should elevate another Chambolle 1er cru to grand cru status.

This summer a few of us did a blind Roumier vs. Mugnier dinner. Someone brought a 2010 Barthod 1er as a ringer and we all called it as a disappointing bottle of Roumier [snort.gif]
Yeah we all know you don’t care for barthod for whatever reason. I’ve done quite a few roumier and barthod cras blind head to heads and most ppl preferred the barthod version (most recently 09 and 13) but ymmv.
Thinking Barthod’s wines are significantly below Roumier’s in quality is not an unusual position; given where the market is, I’d say it’s very much in the majority.
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#41 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » October 9th, 2020, 5:24 am

Greg K wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 5:14 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 5:01 am
Greg K wrote:
October 4th, 2020, 12:23 pm


I can’t agree with considering Barthod next to Mugnier and Roumier and thinking that’s what should elevate another Chambolle 1er cru to grand cru status.

This summer a few of us did a blind Roumier vs. Mugnier dinner. Someone brought a 2010 Barthod 1er as a ringer and we all called it as a disappointing bottle of Roumier [snort.gif]
Yeah we all know you don’t care for barthod for whatever reason. I’ve done quite a few roumier and barthod cras blind head to heads and most ppl preferred the barthod version (most recently 09 and 13) but ymmv.
Thinking Barthod’s wines are significantly below Roumier’s in quality is not an unusual position; given where the market is, I’d say it’s very much in the majority.
Price certainly has some correlation with quality, but so much of that is tradition and history. I haven't been impressed with Roumier at all in recent years, and certainly not for the price the wine currently commands. Mugnier is another story. Even looking at the plain village wines, here are the current prices (just a quick look at WS pro) Roumier $275, Mugnier $225, Vogue $185, Barthod $99. It's hard to assess the wines at such a young age but my general recollections on them are that I'm not sure I think the Roumier was any better at all than the Barthod, which was a fantastic wine, much less at 3x the price.

Greg K
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#42 Post by Greg K » October 9th, 2020, 6:36 am

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 5:24 am
Greg K wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 5:14 am
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 5:01 am


Yeah we all know you don’t care for barthod for whatever reason. I’ve done quite a few roumier and barthod cras blind head to heads and most ppl preferred the barthod version (most recently 09 and 13) but ymmv.
Thinking Barthod’s wines are significantly below Roumier’s in quality is not an unusual position; given where the market is, I’d say it’s very much in the majority.
Price certainly has some correlation with quality, but so much of that is tradition and history. I haven't been impressed with Roumier at all in recent years, and certainly not for the price the wine currently commands. Mugnier is another story. Even looking at the plain village wines, here are the current prices (just a quick look at WS pro) Roumier $275, Mugnier $225, Vogue $185, Barthod $99. It's hard to assess the wines at such a young age but my general recollections on them are that I'm not sure I think the Roumier was any better at all than the Barthod, which was a fantastic wine, much less at 3x the price.
I certainly agree traditionally Barthod's wines have not been as good as Roumier, and in my view nothing has changed. If you like Barthod's wines, that's great, but my view is also in no way unusual.
Greg Kahn

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Claus Jeppesen
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#43 Post by Claus Jeppesen » October 9th, 2020, 7:55 am

IMO LSG is not even the best NSG 1er Cru. But maybe it was back then when Gouges was mayor
Claus

Riesling and Slate

Robert Sand
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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#44 Post by Robert Sand » October 9th, 2020, 9:29 am

Gaudissabois Johan wrote:
October 9th, 2020, 4:45 am
dear Howard,

You did not understand me. Nuits solely has no grand cru because mayor GOUGES did not partcipate in the procedure at the time. -Otherwise LES SAINT GEORGES would have been grand cru. That is not he case in SANTENAY... PLEASE!!!!
SINCERELY JOHAN


If LSG would be GC there would be the same kind of discussion as with Clos Vougeot, Echezeaux, Charmes Chambertin, Corton ... WHY GC, why the whole vineyard, is Vaucrins better etc. ...
imho LSG is lacking a certain something for GC: finesse

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#45 Post by Gaudissabois Johan » October 15th, 2020, 3:45 am

friends,

Anyone having had any experience with CHICOTOT's version of LES SAINT GEORGES?
SINCERELY JOHAN

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Re: is Nuits les SAINT GEORGES worthy of grand cru status?

#46 Post by A Songeur » October 15th, 2020, 8:48 am

Michel Bettane loves Chicotot wines.
Antoine

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