Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

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Kasey Dubler
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Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#1 Post by Kasey Dubler » October 21st, 2020, 1:45 pm

Was working on putting something together and having a hard time finding much information.

I am looking for Châteauneuf-du-Pape red wines, which are either NOT the majority Grenache, or at least much lower %s...

First one that came to mind is Château de Beaucastel "Hommage à Jacques Perrin” which is famously Mourvèdre heavy, but wasn't sure if there were more out there.

Thank you for any help!

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#2 Post by HenryB » October 21st, 2020, 2:10 pm

Beaucastel itself is typically not a majority of Grenache either, FWIW
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#3 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s » October 21st, 2020, 2:26 pm

Château de la Gardine has a bottling called "Generations" that is 1/3 Grenache, 1/3 Mourvedre and 1/3 Syrah.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#4 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » October 21st, 2020, 2:27 pm

Mas de Boislauzon "Le Tintot"
Raymond Usseglio "La Part des Anges"
SQN/Cambie "Chimère"

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#5 Post by Paul Jaouen » October 21st, 2020, 2:52 pm

Rayas Fonsalette 100% Syrah
Best,
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#6 Post by Ramon C » October 21st, 2020, 3:13 pm

Read about it, but don't know if it's any good:
2016 Chimère (Sine Qua Non) Châteauneuf-du-Pape
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#7 Post by crickey » October 21st, 2020, 3:39 pm

Depending on how low you are willing to go for "not focused," there are a number that have a quite significant level of other grapes, just less than 50%. Both the Saint Prefert Charles Giraud, Clos du Caillou Reserve and the Clos St Jean Deus ex Machina are about 40% mourvedre, with 60% grenache. Certain vintages of some wines can vary; for instance, the 2017 Clos des Papes is only 45% grenache, with 40% mourvedre, although the 2016 is 60% grenache and 30% mourvedre, the variation due to a poor grenache crop in 2017.

A good resource to research for your question can be found on Jeff Leve's website here:

https://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/20 ... e-vintage/

Noting that 2017 had a poor grenache crop, you can nonetheless quickly get a sense of the grape content of 200 wines. There are more with less than 50% grenache than I would have thought, although I haven't heard of many of those wines.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#8 Post by Scott McDonald » October 21st, 2020, 7:40 pm

Grand Veneur CdP Les Origines is 50% grenache, 30% syrah, 20% mourvèdre.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#9 Post by Kris Patten » October 21st, 2020, 8:57 pm

Paul Jaouen wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:52 pm
Rayas Fonsalette 100% Syrah
Non-qualifier....Cotes du Rhone.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#10 Post by Christian Obermanns » October 21st, 2020, 9:25 pm

HenryB wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:10 pm
Beaucastel itself is typically not a majority of Grenache either, FWIW
Am I wrong or doesn't the Beaucastel blend include all the allowed varieties of the Rhone Valley, including whites?

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#11 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s » October 21st, 2020, 9:51 pm

Christian Obermanns wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 9:25 pm
HenryB wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:10 pm
Beaucastel itself is typically not a majority of Grenache either, FWIW
Am I wrong or doesn't the Beaucastel blend include all the allowed varieties of the Rhone Valley, including whites?
You are not wrong.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#12 Post by Craig G » October 21st, 2020, 10:39 pm

Christian Obermanns wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 9:25 pm
HenryB wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:10 pm
Beaucastel itself is typically not a majority of Grenache either, FWIW
Am I wrong or doesn't the Beaucastel blend include all the allowed varieties of the Rhone Valley, including whites?
I don’t think this is true of the red wine. It’s true of their vineyards.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#13 Post by Robert Sand » October 21st, 2020, 11:40 pm

Paul Jaouen wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:52 pm
Rayas Fonsalette 100% Syrah
Fonsalette is NO CdP.

Bois de Boursan has a lower Grenache %

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#14 Post by Ian Dorin » October 22nd, 2020, 5:06 am

Grand Veneur VV is another one.
Xavier Vignon Anonyme too.

Most vintages of Vieux Donjon and Vieux Telegraphe are just over, but show the varietal as well.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#15 Post by Robert Sand » October 22nd, 2020, 6:10 am

Domaine Barroche produced a 100% Mourvedre cuvee called "?" in 2018 !
Also the Fiancee had less Grenache -

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#16 Post by Paul Jaouen » October 22nd, 2020, 7:55 am

Robert Sand wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 11:40 pm
Paul Jaouen wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:52 pm
Rayas Fonsalette 100% Syrah
Fonsalette is NO CdP.

Bois de Boursan has a lower Grenache %
True but better than most CdPs.
Best,
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#17 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » October 22nd, 2020, 10:10 am

Paul Jaouen wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 7:55 am
Robert Sand wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 11:40 pm
Paul Jaouen wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:52 pm
Rayas Fonsalette 100% Syrah
Fonsalette is NO CdP.
True but better than most CdPs.
Perhaps, but Fonsalette Syrah is more like a Northern Rhone. It really isn't comparable to a CdP.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#18 Post by John Morris » October 22nd, 2020, 11:23 am

Craig G wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 10:39 pm
Christian Obermanns wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 9:25 pm
HenryB wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 2:10 pm
Beaucastel itself is typically not a majority of Grenache either, FWIW
Am I wrong or doesn't the Beaucastel blend include all the allowed varieties of the Rhone Valley, including whites?
I don’t think this is true of the red wine. It’s true of their vineyards.
They refer to vinifying all 13 and mention eight by name in discussing what they contributed to the red on their website:
In order to reveal their character, aromas and originality, the 13 grape varieties of Château de Beaucastel vineyards are vinified separately:
- Grenache and Cinsault provide warmth, colour and roundness,
- Mourvedre, Syrah, Muscardin and Vaccarese provide structure, aging abilities, colour and a 
very straight taste,
- Counoise and Picpoul provide body, freshness and very particular aromas.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#19 Post by larry schaffer » October 22nd, 2020, 3:44 pm

Note that many CdP varieties are available in red or white versions. Picpoul and Grenache are certainly examples of this. The Beaucastel red will only include red varieties, whereas their blanc will include white varieties.

Not mentioned here is Terret Noir, a variety that I am pretty sure Beaucastel grows and includes in their reds.

One last note - Hommage a Jacques Perrin does have a good portion of Mourvedre in it, but never more than 60% and oftentimes less than 50%. I always thought it had more but have had a few over the past few years . . .

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#20 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 22nd, 2020, 3:47 pm

larry schaffer wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 3:44 pm


One last note - Hommage a Jacques Perrin does have a good portion of Mourvedre in it, but never more than 60% and oftentimes less than 50%. I always thought it had more but have had a few over the past few years . . .
Hmmmm, you sure? I have read up to 85% in some vintages.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#21 Post by larry schaffer » October 22nd, 2020, 4:02 pm

Robert,

I of course could be wrong . . . in fact, I saw that the 2016 is 75% Mourvedre. Oops. . .
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#22 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » October 23rd, 2020, 6:40 am

larry schaffer wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 3:44 pm
Note that many CdP varieties are available in red or white versions. Picpoul and Grenache are certainly examples of this. The Beaucastel red will only include red varieties, whereas their blanc will include white varieties.



Cheers!
At least as recently as the first decade of the aughts, at Beaucastel, they claimed to use all allowable grapes, red and white, in their red wine. The amounts were miniscule but not non-existent. As proof that this was traditional at the domaine, they had on the wall a photo taken in the early 20th century of a large batch of grapes about to be vinified into the red wine and one could see quite clearly, scattered here and there among th red grapes, some white ones as well.Maybe they've changed in the past few years, but I don't think so as it would have been at least noticeable news. If anything, the practice has increased in recent years. I've read, for instance, that Pegau has been using white grapes in its red blend for some time, though I will yield to correction from Dan Kravitz about this.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#23 Post by Jeff Vaughan » October 23rd, 2020, 8:50 am

Robert Sand wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 6:10 am
Domaine Barroche produced a 100% Mourvedre cuvee called "?" in 2018 !
Also the Fiancee had less Grenache -
The Fiancee was 50% Grenache and 50% Syrah if I remember correctly. A marriage of the two so to speak.
CT: outplaying

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#24 Post by Jeff Leve » October 23rd, 2020, 9:17 am

crickey wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 3:39 pm
A good resource to research for your question can be found on Jeff Leve's website here:

https://www.thewinecellarinsider.com/20 ... e-vintage/

Noting that 2017 had a poor grenache crop, you can nonetheless quickly get a sense of the grape content of 200 wines. There are more with less than 50% grenache than I would have thought, although I haven't heard of many of those wines.
Actually, if the OP or others peruses that page, you can find blends for a large percentage of wines tasted for 2017. You can find similar info for 2016 on the site as well. I do not have the same depth of info for 2018, as those wines were all tasted at home.
Kasey Dubler wrote:
October 21st, 2020, 1:45 pm
Was working on putting something together and having a hard time finding much information. I am looking for Châteauneuf-du-Pape red wines, which are either NOT the majority Grenache, or at least much lower %s...

I am not sure if these wines have already been mentioned in this thread, but it is interesting to note that there are at least 3 Chateauneuf du Pape's that are 100% Syrah; Maravilhas Espirito, La Mereuille Cuvee d’ Aure, and St. Paul L’Insolite.

There are also at least 3 wines from 100% Mourvedre; Semelles Pur Mourvedre, Mas de Boislauzon Tintot and Chante Perdrix, Henri Perges.

You can find several other non Grenache dominated blends all over the appellation as well.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#25 Post by John Morris » October 23rd, 2020, 11:59 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
October 23rd, 2020, 6:40 am
larry schaffer wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 3:44 pm
Note that many CdP varieties are available in red or white versions. Picpoul and Grenache are certainly examples of this. The Beaucastel red will only include red varieties, whereas their blanc will include white varieties.



Cheers!
At least as recently as the first decade of the aughts, at Beaucastel, they claimed to use all allowable grapes, red and white, in their red wine. The amounts were miniscule but not non-existent. As proof that this was traditional at the domaine, they had on the wall a photo taken in the early 20th century of a large batch of grapes about to be vinified into the red wine and one could see quite clearly, scattered here and there among th red grapes, some white ones as well.Maybe they've changed in the past few years, but I don't think so as it would have been at least noticeable news. If anything, the practice has increased in recent years. I've read, for instance, that Pegau has been using white grapes in its red blend for some time, though I will yield to correction from Dan Kravitz about this.
As I pointed out in post #18, the Beaucastel website refers to vinifying all 13 varieties separately for the red, so, unless they toss some out or downgrade them, it seems they are still using all 13.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#26 Post by Jeff Leve » October 23rd, 2020, 1:12 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 23rd, 2020, 11:59 am
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
October 23rd, 2020, 6:40 am
larry schaffer wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 3:44 pm
Note that many CdP varieties are available in red or white versions. Picpoul and Grenache are certainly examples of this. The Beaucastel red will only include red varieties, whereas their blanc will include white varieties.



Cheers!
At least as recently as the first decade of the aughts, at Beaucastel, they claimed to use all allowable grapes, red and white, in their red wine. The amounts were miniscule but not non-existent. As proof that this was traditional at the domaine, they had on the wall a photo taken in the early 20th century of a large batch of grapes about to be vinified into the red wine and one could see quite clearly, scattered here and there among th red grapes, some white ones as well.Maybe they've changed in the past few years, but I don't think so as it would have been at least noticeable news. If anything, the practice has increased in recent years. I've read, for instance, that Pegau has been using white grapes in its red blend for some time, though I will yield to correction from Dan Kravitz about this.
As I pointed out in post #18, the Beaucastel website refers to vinifying all 13 varieties separately for the red, so, unless they toss some out or downgrade them, it seems they are still using all 13.
Larry... This is not correct. You can find white wine grapes in the blend of Beaucastel. This is as per conversations I’ve had with Marc Perrin.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#27 Post by Frank Drew » October 24th, 2020, 4:39 am

Domaine Les Cailloux occasionally (1994, 1995, 2000?) produces an all-Syrah Châteauneuf-du-Pape bottling called Boréale, but the 1995 was affected by something, perhaps a spoilage yeast, and were undrinkable; my two bottles tasted like orange juice that had gone bad.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#28 Post by Robert Sand » October 24th, 2020, 6:03 am

Jean Royer made (makes?) a 100% Syrah cuvee, called ?Syrah regalis? or similar. It was good but atypical, and far too young when tasted

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#29 Post by HenryB » October 24th, 2020, 12:11 pm

on the subject of non-grenache CNDP, I've been reallyl tempted for a year or so buy this:

https://www.farrvintners.com/wine.php?wine=47186

Would be a fascinating experience, just not sure £450 is worth the price (before tax)
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#30 Post by M Officer » October 24th, 2020, 1:46 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:There are also at least 3 wines from 100% Mourvedre; Semelles Pur Mourvedre, Mas de Boislauzon Tintot and Chante Perdrix, Henri Perges.
Tintot is not 100% Mourvèdre and typically contains around 15% Grenache.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape wine which are NOT Grenache focused

#31 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » October 24th, 2020, 6:18 pm

HenryB wrote:
October 24th, 2020, 12:11 pm
on the subject of non-grenache CNDP, I've been reallyl tempted for a year or so buy this:

https://www.farrvintners.com/wine.php?wine=47186

Would be a fascinating experience, just not sure £450 is worth the price (before tax)
I was not aware of this before your post, and I agree with everything you said about it - thanks for pointing it out!

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