Dunn Howell Mountain vs Ridge Montebello

Admittedly, this may be a odd comparison. However, I found myself in a conversation with two others who were extolling the virtues of waiting for structured, tannic California cabernets to mature. Each of the two had only tasted one of the wines noted here–that is, one was a fan of Ridge having never tasted a Dunn, and the other, vice-versa. I’ve not had the opportunity to drink an aged version of either wine. Curious to hear the insights of those who have tasted both in their prime.

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Both make excellent wines - but they are very different. MB IMHO is much richer and with a lot more new oak that has to integrate. Dunn is more tannic when young. Both need time. I don’t think they would be that hard to tell apart - famous last words.

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I’ve had more Dunn than MB but have indeed had both. Dunn is, to my palate, a more pure expression of Cabernet. It tends to be more structured and less rich. As a mountain (Howell) Napa Cabernet, it is expressive of California sunshine but to my mind represents a middle of the road between overblown Napa cabs and more austere Bordeaux Cabernet. It is excellent (probably my favorite traditional leaning Napa wine) and distinctive, but very clearly of its place, grape, and tradition.

Monte Bello tends to be richer and is more distinctive. It is expressive of its place (the Santa Cruz Mountains) so much so that it defines the standard for the terroir. It is a blend and so at its best is a harmonious mixture of different notes of the Merlot, Petit Verdot and Cab Franc that are part of the MB song. Yes it’s more oaked but that integrates well. Because the SCM has a slightly different microclimate from other wine regions in California, gross generalizations about Napa don’t necessarily apply. However, California is still California and the weather is very consistent relative to Europe - which means very few dud years. Maybe there were two really off years (1998 and 2003) in the last 30, though I have not tried every vintage.

I haven’t done much head to head tasting by vintage but I refuse to argue that one is better than the other. They are both fabulous consistent performers. They both age well and most vintages would outlast all of us if they are stored/corked well. One could argue that MB is a unique expression of wine, wine making, and California. More unique? Is that a thing?

On the scale of world class wine, they are both cheap and readily available. Pick a vintage (any from the 90s except ‘98), buy one of each and see what you think.

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I had my first taste of Dunn earlier this year, a 2014 Dunn Howell Mountain I got for a bargain price. I was quite surprised as it was nothing like what I had been led to believe Dunn was like. It wasn’t a “big” chocolatey fruit bomb type Napa Cab, it had decent acidity and OK structure that made it pretty quaffable. But it was rather sweet, slick/smooth and didn’t seem to have anything like the formidable structure for aging that I had thought it would. Nor did it have a lot of traditional Cabernet characteristics (leafiness, herbal elements, etc.) It didn’t seem very old world to me and I wasn’t left particularly curious as to how it would age. Has Dunn changed their style?

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I think I’ve read here and there that Dunn’s style has changed recently. Can’t confirm, but wouldn’t be surprised if it did.

Sadly, old MB isn’t that cheap anymore. Easily on par with super-second Bordeaux pricing with comparable age.
They’re both fantastic wines, but the comparison between MB and any of the other famous US cabs is the American oak. I also think Ridge MB is the greatest American wine.

Disclaimer: most of my experience with these wines are with at least two decades of bottle age, I rarely drink cabernet young.

Yup.

As a result, I would take mature Dunn over Ridge any day of the week. Actually, over almost any CA Cab.

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I think we’ve gone into this before… Randy Dunn, for reasons of economy, used to use only 50% new oak, but chose the most impactful barrels he could find. These Vicard barrels tended to impart lots of supplemental tannin to the wine, something Howell Mountain Cabernet arguably doesn’t need. Mike Dunn hasn’t changed much in terms of winemaking, but he has changed the barrel program: 100% new, but much less impactful wood. I don’t find the wines any more overtly oaky, if anything the opposite; but they display suppler, more polished tannins young. There is also an overarching trend, which is that by the mid-2000s Randy began to pick riper than he had in the 1980s for example. That is actually something Mike is more likely to walk back than the opposite I think, based on my discussions with him.

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MB’s signature really is the American Oak. No getting around that. We can talk terroir til we are blue in the face, but I think MB has wonderful source material, but it was Draper and Baugher’s blending and assemblage that make MB distinctive to me. I’m not sure I could tell a Mount Eden or other SCM can from a similarly made Napa cab, but MB is fairly distinctive.

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Gentelmen, I would throw in this discussion ( Dunn HM vs Montebello) the thrid one: Philip Togni Cabernet Sauvinon Estate.
By the way, I am very happy to own 2004 & 2007 Dunn HM, based on notes in cellartracker.com , both vintages are ready for business.
For my bottle of Togni 2010 , I think I have to wait at least 10 more years…

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Thanks. Yes, the tannins were very finessed and easy, but even more than that, the wine didn’t have the imposing black-fruited character and size that one tends to look for in long-aging Cabs. It was red-fruited and at most medium-bodied, along with the somewhat sweet character I mentioned. It reminded me of Cabs I’ve had from Washington State, which I tend not to enjoy as much as my favorites from California.

I don’t doubt it will age, and it was pleasant to drink now, but it lacked some intrigue and interest for me. I had actually been holding off on trying Dunn because my wallet can’t afford to fall in love with another California Cab producer (I’m full up and tapped out with Togni and Monte Bello), but this was not competitive with Togni for me. Anyway, don’t want to badmouth this great producer on one young bottle, but I’m going to stick to my Togni.

LOL yes. See my post above. Not only is Togni a truly great wine with age, it is the least expensive of this trio of wines. You can often find good vintages on the secondary market in the $80-95 range.

Togni can also be a challenging wine though, that especially in its first 20 years of life can express a lot of intensely savory character. It’s not to everyone’s taste.

My comments are based on Dunn (both Howell and Napa bottlings) from the 90s and early 2000s. I think the youngest one I’ve had is 2002 so I can’t comment on more recent changes.

I’ve had a wider range of MB from late '80s to a 2017 I opened last month. Oak isn’t as much an issue for me as others. Yes there is some oak on the younger wines but I don’t find that it dominates the flavors. But absolutely the combination of blending, sources, and assemblage make MB very distinctive. Post Covid I’d encourage anyone to visit Ridge’s tasting room at the Litton Springs vineyard just outside Healdsburg (maybe 90 minutes north of San Francisco). You can taste a very wide range of their offerings, and they have a “Monte Bello” tasting with 3 vintages back to the mid 2000s. In the last year I think I’ve tried the 2006 and the 2008 in addition to more current vintages. YMMV.

This is something I envy to people living in the USA…
By the way, does anyone can expalin how it was possible that despite enthusiastic opinions and high rates from Robert Parker for Togni wines 1990-97, their prices did not shot up like other cult producers?
I am not complainong about it ( the same for prices Dunn HM) but I am just curious…

Marcus, I haven’t seen Togni older bottles sub-$100 in a long long time. Maybe a couple late-00’s for around $95 but that’s it. Older vintages are at a premium.

Guys, don’t get your hopes up.

I concur. Would love to know where I can snag them up for under $100!

well, I shouldn’t mention this, but since I am pretty much loaded up on Togni I can say that in my experience vintages under 15 years old can frequently be found at auction for under $100 all in. I know I’ve benefited from that within the last year, don’t know if the very recent runup in wine prices has affected it.

I do find that Togni prices take a pretty sharp upward turn once vintages get to around 20 years old, 90s vintages are generally quite expensive. Just have to age them yourself…

I’ve got a couple of of '91 Dunns (both the Napa and Howell Mountain bottlings) and MBs laying around that I planned on opening next year for my 30th. The original plan was to consume them on separate dates, but this discussion now has me pondering whether I should open them on the same day to try them side by side.

I think there has been some change.

In the past: iron fist in an iron glove when young, which I love.

Then, when the 2011 vintage hit, I Poebga’d it and it was redolent of oak and vanilla and soft tannins. (It was Rivers Marie-like.)

I opened my most recent shipment and much more back to the style I am used to - I think more complex and approachable on release but still nicely tight in its presentation.

I am going to revisit some and see if I can provide a better timeline.

Find a 2000 Monte Bello