Bordeaux....and when to drink, early or late.

Soooo, being a budding aficionado of wine and learning more all the time.
I got a lot of good wine books over the last years and look at this board for the knowledge that so many of you impart.
Great info.

I have some good Bordeaux younger more than older and some 2010 and 12 and 15 and 16 along with 18 Croix de Beaucailiou
Some other Superieur stuff as well.

Here is the thing.
I know this has been Addressed ad infinitum over the years and I Still feel the need to have it explained to me in a way that totally makes sense.
Do all wines shut down?
Is there a hard and fast rule for this?

2015 Bordeaux comes to mind here.
It was all so good…young. Very approachable early.
14…not so much and 16, although a tremendous vintage (Loved the description of how that years vintage unfolded what with the rain early and then flowering in perfect weather…then more rain and drought…With, cool nights and drought which Cabernet loves and then a finishing rain before harvest)
Lower alcohol levels…Etc Etc.
It was that Strength to Strength article that made me buy a case of Leoville Barton.
I have a 2010 LB that I got as a gift from my girl in 2016.
She asked what I wanted sooooo…

I would love to try one of the 6 LB 2016’s that I have and I’m guessing…Hoping…Praying…that I am not too late already with the wine shutting down thing.

When a Good Bordeaux goes into hibernation or shuts down or whatever…is there no hope for it?
Does a 3 or 4 or more hour decant bring it out of its “state”?
Or is it just closed for years and you are just Out Of Luck!?

I still don’t understand the exact mechanics of what happens?
What about my 2010 Brunello’s and 12’s

I have some 2016 Barnett Cab and Chappellet Sig 2017.
Do they shut down too?

I learned early on from smart folks about 09 and 10 vintages of Bordeaux and have a Montrose I got as an investment. 2010
Also got two 2nd wines of 10 Montrose and a few 3rd wines.
The one La Dame I had was amazing a couple few years ago.
The main wine said drink from 2020 to 2100

LOLOL

2100?

After trying the 2nd wine…I BELIEVE IT!!!

But, as much as I have come full circle on wine and find that I Do Love Bordeaux, I’m still perplexed about what and when and how to consume it early or later or whatever.

Sooooo, would YOU folks try a 2016 Leoville Barton just to see right now, or is it too late?

I have some 12 Barde-Haut that was drinking so nice a year or so ago.
Also have a Fleur 12 and 4 D’Armailhac 12’s.
I had 1 D’arm and saw a price I couldn’t pass up so grabbed 3 more a short time ago.
The recent reviews on Vivino were pretty enticing.

That 12 Fluer and D’arm were the first two bordeaux’s I bought at Costco in 2015.

I just don’t understand this closed down thing and how it works.
I’ve seen the basic definition of the small amount of air being consumed and all.
There Has to be a more scientific explanation of what is happening.

I know the 2010 Larrivet is drinking very good right now.

Or is it?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Thanks for your patience.

And…I hope you All had a great Holiday and Happy New Year’s all!

Cheers!

Let me add that I am not relishing the thought of Waiting on good wine to age for a Dozen years before I open a bottle.
LOLOL

I mean, I did try one of the 2018 Croix de Baeucaillou’s and even my amateur experience could tell it needed more time.
But maybe Only a couple more years…or more?

In 2017 I had a Renieri 2010 Brunello Riserva. Best wine I have had ever.
Suckling gave it a 100. (He recently gave the regular 2015 a 100 too) He does like giving high marks doesn’t he??
But that 2nd wine of Montrose comes close to being the 2nd best wine I had.
The 1986 Haut Brion I told you folks about a couple years ago was not impressive.
WCI’s Jeff Leve was right.

Lots of interesting questions here, and you may find that the answers vary with who is responding as this is a personal choice to a great extent. The French tend to drink everything young, the British tend to age everything. Personally I think each vintage has its own character, 2015 is fairly friendly, 2012 is early maturing, 2010 can be hard and tannic. My own choice for a great wine of a great year, if I only have 6, would be to leave it until I thought it was peaking, likely to be another decade for your Léoville-Barton. I often get a few halves and use them as the tests to see when to pull the cork on the full bottles.

Whatever the decision enjoy the learning and keep on tasting.

Yeah, lots of questions.
I would say that, in general, chateaux owners are trying to lean more towards a style of wine that is accessible earlier than in years/decades past. That being said, even from vintage to vintage the wine will dictate when it ought to be consumed. You will need to wait decades, IMHO for a Leoville Las Cases to be “ready” versus an Haut Bailey.

It also matters your style preference . I have a friend that prefers to drink his wine young. Me, I like to push the envelope of maturity. Trying to drink a wine at it’s apex of evolution is a big part of my wine affinity. To me, Bordeaux are supposed to show tertiary characteristics to be “mature”. He and I can argue till the cows come home and nothing will change. I smell a sitcom…

To answer another one of your questions, I cannot speak well to trying to drink a wine while missing it’s shut down period. I think that is a definite risk of opening young wines. But I do not think a long decant is a fixer for a wine that is shut down. It might help a bit but it is no substitute for time in the bottle.

I would suggest to you, what helped me out a lot, it become intimate with winebid. There you can buy single bottles of various wines with various amounts of age on them. This is excellent practice to hone your preferences. You will also find, that for many wines, the economics of buying some well stored mature wines versus their current vintages is not cost prohibitive.

Enjoy!

I would have to think that now is not good timing for a Leoville Barton 2016. But I have not tried any. The 2010 Brunello’s I have had in 2020 were delicious

I have been drinking Bordeaux for a long time and I am going to be a hard liner on this. The following is true for pretty much all classed growth Bordeaux in my experience.

–Left bank Bordeaux always shuts down. Right bank Bordeaux often does too.
–the shut down period lasts from about 4 years after vintage date to about 15 years after vintage date. It is very predictable.
–in general you should not open your Bordeaux during this period. Exceptions are some right bankers, especially in “soft” fruity warm years. Even there it is tricky though. On the left bank, sometimes smaller vintages (e.g. 1999, 2002) will give pleasure before the 15 year mark, but they will still be better at 15 years old.
–15 years is generally a safe time to open up again. You will be glad you waited. At 15 years the wines will still have all their fruit but in a much more integrated and accessible form.
–occasionally higher-end wines in some very tannic vintages (1986, 1995, 2000, 2005, probably 2010) are not fully open at 15 years old and you may want to wait till 18-20. But even in those vintages they will be starting to open around 15 years.

I remember the period where I was just starting to collect Bordeaux and I was like “holy shit, I bought all these wines and now the old timers are telling me I have to wait OVER TEN YEARS to drink them?” It seemed insane.

So I ignored this advice for a while. It led to wasting all of the 1996 Bordeaux I owned. I wasted every single 1996 left bank Bordeaux I owned, including great wines like the 96 Pichon Lalande and Ducru Beaucaillou purchased near release, by drinking them in their shut down period. They showed almost nothing. I could have gotten the same pleasure from a Haut Medoc.

also – no, a long decant will not fix a shut down wine.

You have to wait. Sorry.

This is why when I passed 50 years old I stopped buying Bordeaux with the 2016 vintage

To learn Bordeaux backfill older wines while you are waiting for your new releases to come around. The market is full of older Bordeaux at prices not that far off hyped new releases.

So much right on these last two posts. I stopped at 49 with the 2014 vintage, which I love, but got sucked back in with the quality of 2016. Some great stuff in this vintage. That said, 15 is a minimum to me for many of the wines I buy, and frankly, wish I had a deeper, more mature cellar. I popped two 2005s recently at they are still primary. A vintage like that, for quality left bank wine, really needs 25.

I can relate. When I was in college and just getting into wine (circa 2000-01) there was a wine shop in town where the manager was allegedly a wine guru. After a month of buying and trying wines per his recommendations, I asked if we could step up from the $15-$25 wines into something with more sex appeal. He sold me first a 95 cos. I drank it and it offered nothing. Totally shut down. When I said it wasn’t my cup of tea but couldn’t, at the time, explain just why, he got frustrated. He then sold me the 96 Cos. Same thing happened. When I told him that this wasn’t my cup of tea either he got increasingly frustrated. Per a recommendation from a friend, I purchased Young longhorn creek cab fro about $20. It was spectacular. When I told him I preferred the $20 cab to the $90 Bordeaux he got so upset that he told me, I was welcome to shop at his store but I was no longer welcome to solicit recommendations from him. The ordeal and bruise to my novice wine ego set my wine education back a couple of years. I was in a college town in Iowa and good wine advice was slim.

I guarantee Leve’s words of wisdom will talk you into buying 2018 and 2019.

Lots of good advice here. I’d add that you should start getting used to using Cellar Tracker. Bordeaux in particular, with its high volume, has lots and lots of tasting notes. If people are saying that a wine is closed, tight, or tannic, then waiting might be a good idea! There is no more valuable tool for understanding readiness. Yes, the notes vary a ton in quality and the ratings have to be used thoughtfully, but the readiness data is super useful.

I will repeat another great tip - sample wines from Winebid which has a ton of older stuff at a wide range of prices and you can bid on just one bottle. Tasting a wide range of ages will give you the education you want.

Finally - I love Brunello, but it drinks well far younger than Bordeaux. Anything from 2006/7/8 is in the zone now, though many bottlings will be good for decades. I bet 2010 will be good now or soon as well, but haven’t had a lot of those yet. As a comparison - I generally like my Bordeaux with 20+ years. Had a 1996 Pape Clement with Christmas dinner yesterday that was wonderful and in a great place.

I align with Marcus although I think 15 years after vintage is way too early for certain structured vintages like 1986 and 1995. They are just starting to open, 1986 taking 30+ years in line with vintages like 1970 and 1975.

That said, I’d say it’s not at all clear what will happen with a vintage like 2016, with wines made in a different era and having a different structural makeup typically than what might be superficially similar vintages of the past. Will it shut down? Almost certainly. For how long? Who knows. Marcus’s advice to start testing the waters at 15 is as good as any if you like young Bordeaux. Personally, I’m guessing 15 years will not be enough for the 2016s.

Or you could do what is suggested above. In parallel with any young vintage purchases, start buying and drinking Bordeaux from 2004 and older. It’s not hard to find in bottle or case quantities. There are (almost) countless threads here on what wines to seek out.

Oh, that’s Too funny!

I believe it.

People can be very…“Funny”
But as it pertains to my point…it’s Perfect!

You can Try all you want.
But if it’s not ready…it’s not ready!

I neglected to mention…when I grabbed those D’arm’s, I also saw they had 5 or 6 bottles of Haut Bages Liberal Pauillac 2006

For a good price. 49.99
I got two and tried one last weekend.
Maybe I was a year early or maybe I didn’t appreciate it or maybe it was just OK.

But I have one more.

Anyway.
Felt compelled to respond to Your post before I read the rest.

Good stuff from everyone.

Very interesting read here. I do wonder what the science is behind dumb phases, in those cases where it is applicable. I have done verticals of wines with domestic producers, with ages ranging from very recent to 25+ years old, and I can’t think of a wine which ever came across as muted: they showed a smooth, linear evolution from primary exuberance to tertiary poise. On the other hand, I recently had a 1989 Gazin - not exactly a showstopper, in theory - which baffled me for its youthful freshness. There is something about these colder climate, classic regions that puts a particular twist on the chemistry.

Plenty of good advice here. Yep, most all Bordeaux shuts down. Not always in a way that’s easy to predict though. Some people talk about it like everything is a cup-and-handle curve but sometimes it flits back and forth. There are long-aging vintages that are better to drink at 10-15 years than they are at 20-25, but better still at 30+. Yes, drinking too early is a way bigger risk than drinking too late. There’s no reason to doubt that Montrose you mention can last a hundred years - it’s your own mortality you have to worry about, not the wine’s. People used to keep skulls on their desks as a memento mori. For wine collectors, this exercise is superfluous.

When I was young and bought 1982 Bordeaux futures, in addition to buying classified wines to hold onto, I bought less expensive wines to drink in the meantime. Yes, some of those would would have been wonderful if kept, but they gave me some good wines to drink so I kept my hands off of others. Wines I bought at the time for this purpose included Gloria, Potensac, Chasse Spleen and Latour du Pin Figeac.

There’s nothing like personal experience, Karl.

The big set of advice guy are getting from so many people is correct - the best approach is to mature top end Bordeaux and in the meantime enjoy either wines meant to be consumed earlier or aged Bordeaux at auction or ideally both.

By doing that and opening too young wines meant to age you will first hand know what everyone is saying.

Absolutely Great responses folks.

Thank You!

Soooo, not so much for the cabs I mentioned.
That Barnett I mentioned gets rave reviews and it’s a 16.
I’ve had this wine before and I’ll be perfectly honest with you.
I had 4 Reserve de Comtesse 2015
Tried it at a Total Wine France tasting which is how I met the group I hang with.
Great folks all of them.
They are the ones I opened the 86 Haut Brion with.
I had an earlier vintage of the Barnett with them before (theirs) and loved that wine.
Sooo Good!

But when we had the 15 Reserve Comtesse that one of my friends brought, I was underwhelmed.
I traded them for Chapp Signatures and Barnett’s.
Could be more due to it being closed…but I knew I like the Chappellet Signature for the same current price and they let me swap.
And two Barnett’s + about 13$ more each.

I feel like I will enjoy those Sooo much more than Lalande’s 2nd wine.
The reviews are great.
But unlike Bordeaux, does this not need anywhere the aging that the Bordeaux’s need right??
And I guess this wine shuts down too…right?

But Differently??

This whole wine shutting down thing has never been explained to me satisfactorily.

Maybe it never will.

I am going to bite the bullet and try at least one of the Leoville Barton’s just because it’s only 4 years old and might not have the do not enter sign up yet.

Those 10 Larrivet’s and 12 D’Arm’s will also get tried.

One conclusion I feel compelled to have decided is… I’m not going to buy anymore 16 or 18 Bordeaux unless it’s at the lower end of the scale price wise.
That’s more approachable earlier anyway.

But the 2010 Prieure Lichine I had 2 1/2 years ago in May was outstanding.
I have a couple more of those and a few months back got four of the 15’s.
Not sure Why I did That!
I just need to stop buying stuff that’s 5 years old or less.

I have 4-5 2015 Siran’s and Capbern’s.
I guess those will shut down too.

Cripes!

LOL

I do like the dirt though!!

Great stuff folks.
Lots to think about.
Thanks Much!

Cheers!

Karl

Karl,
You cannot compare a couple of wines in a vacuum, expect to say at that moment you prefer wine x over y for reasons ab and c. The more you can quantify as to why the further along you might be on your journey.

Wines evolve. Some express themselves well when young, others not. You are comparing two (or more) completely different wines as different times on a non-linear line. It is an impossible situation that, we as enthusiasts, derive much pleasure from attempting to ascertain.

Personally, I am underwhelmed by second wines, but regardless, a young Bordeaux and a young Napa wine will might show worlds apart. Vintage aside. The question for you is to determine what it is about the wine that leads you to prefer one over the other. Is the the ripeness of fruit? Is it the structure (IE the acid) You might prefer a wine from a warm climate that is ripe and fruity but another might describe it as flabby w/o structure.

The bad news is it can take a long time and a lot of expense to determine your sweet spot. But the good news is, it is a heck of a lot of fun getting there. Thank goodness for this board to serve as a resource. Hope this helps even just a little…

As a relative Bordeaux novice I also find this a fascinating subject. Many phenomena in wine are often discussed on a very detailed molecular level, but the question of shutting down seems to be something much more anecdotal in nature. It only applies to certain red wines like Bordeaux and then depends on the price of the wine. It is difficult to understand the mechanism at work treating wines so differently.

Can anyone shed any light on what’s actually going on when a 100+ € wine becomes muted for several years while a 30€ wine remains relatively drinkable? This would at least be an interesting subject for enology students to focus on if there is no clear explanation.