Richebourg and Richebourg sous Veroilles

Friends,

Is there really a difference between “Richebourg sous Veroilles” and the “real” Richebourg? One time wine maker at Hudelot-Noellat’s Pierre Nawrocki was convinced so. Was it because his boss owned Richebourg proper? Still, I have my doubts. I thought to detect a difference between Richebourgs by Jean Gros, Anne Gros (all Veroilles) and the ones by say HN, Grivot, Thibault Liger Belair and Leroy (I had the 88,89,90,91,92 and 93 from Lalou when I was a customer there) ). Somehow the latter ones turned out to be “fuller”, or “richer” if you will, "more complete versions of the same ((?) wine. Or am I imagining things like the late great John Lennon wanted us to…Looking forward to your remarks…


SINCERELY JOHAN

Johan…hmm. You did not give me enough data to make a proper guess.

I need the harvest dates of each vintage when Leroy picked their grapes and how long did they finished the harest. As the grapes in sous Veoilles ( ou Les Veroilles ) needs to harvest 2 to 3 days later than the grapes in the proper Richebourg. Beside…Leroy always makes her wines - regardless where - quite full. [cheers.gif]

Did you do some march-tastings of Richebourg from DRC vs Leroy ? For example form em vintage 1995 - single blind ? [wink.gif]

Is there any reason for you to believe what Pierre Nawrocki said is true ? Is he being too honest ?



Yours truly :

Peter Chiu blush .

Dear Peter,

What Nawrocki tried to say was that there was a clear difference in terroir. He thought it was unfair for VEROILLES to be callled RICHEBOURG. But of course the one sold by HN was and still is RICHEBOURG PROPER so he may have been biased…

SINCERELY JOHAN

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I think you’re imagining things.

I think the AF Gros richebourg from 15-16 are among the best made, and they’re heavily veroilles. DRC is about 25/75 or 1/3-2/3.

I would not be surprised if ppl picked AF gros over drc blind in 15-16.

Johan…thanks for the reply. Your post made me curious and I do some readings.

Michael - thanks for the link. It is an interesting read of the history of… Richebourg … back in 1924.

Beside the difference in harvesting date, I also believe the size of Richeboug is not that big ( unlike CdV ) to make a significant difference. I agree with Michael’s
comment.

Here is what M. Kramer said about Appellation ( and the authenticity ) : a world of made is not a world of born.

Appellation was created not without the influence of commercial reason - for example : grapes from the liex-dit Clos de Beze has the option to be labeled under the following 2 AC : (1) Les Chambertin Grand Cru or (2) Chambertin-Clos de Beze Grand Cru .

Whereas the grapes from the lieu-dit Chambertin has only one option to be labeled under AC Les Chambertin Grand Cru ( and has no right to be labeled under the AC - Chambertin-Clos de Beze Grand cru.

Bossuet said : the greatest disorder of the mind is to believe things as they are because Peter Chiu wish them to be so…

PS - Johan : please take note that my last sentence is not aim at you or anyone - but rather just a general observation …

Dear Peter,

No offense taken. Thank you for your reply. I posted the topic because in my opinion no journalist ever wrote about whether it was justified to upgrade VEROILLEs to RICHEBOURG. We only learn that “sous” became “ou”. Interesting semantics. But what about the quality of the wine…???
SINCERELY JOHAN

Did you read the article linked?

Dear Michael,

Thank you for answering once again. And I did read the article written by Steen. I am a subscriber to WINEHOG. He answers the issue whether the two are equal quality wise. But based on what? As I remember it Steen has not that much experience in tasting RICHEBOURGS. Not in the same way Clive Coates had, or Sarah Marsh, or Meadows or for that matter R Parker. And they never touched the issue. Still, much obliged for reminding me of the fact that STEEN did try. His conclusion : not a significant difference quality wise.

SINCERELY JOHAN

But what about the quality of the wine…???

I assume the quality of the wine means the wine of AC : RichebouRg Grand Cru ( as a whole ).

Hmmm…I do not remember the date nor the place, and I do not remember the name of the lady…all I remember was : the bottle was Chambertin.

For me…Richebourg is *too rich [wink.gif] * and it is not as complete as a Chambertin - year-in and year-out.

I was told Napoleon lost the battle of Waterloo because he did not drink a Chambertin the night before.

For Richeboug…I only had the DRC, Leory and the Gros family. I went past the journey for Burgundy, so…when it is 4 to 5bottles for the price of 1, I much prefer AF Gros.

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Hm, I haven´t tasted AF Gros Richebourg since 2007, but had many older vintages (not all), and I ve been kind of underwhelmed … no match to the Richebourgs by Jean Gros (made up to 1995, before the parcel went to AF Gros), and also not compared to Anne Gros, Hudelot-Noellat, Meo-Camuzet and Grivot (when the latter wasn´t corked).
Might be that AF has improved, though …

The 15-16 AF gros are spectacular.

Thank you for your opinion of your experience of AF Gros Richeboug ( prior to 2007 ) - and that they are no match with Richebourgs by Jean Gros ( made up to 1995).

To understand the small details of the Gros family - for example who owns which and who made what …is not a small task. There is a possibility that the Richebourg of AF Gros and that of Jean Gros …were made by the same wine maker.

I have no experience of Ricbebourg by H-Noellat, Meo-Camuzet and Grivot. I am not certain but most like H-N and M-Camuzet were not available in Quebec and the Grivot was too pricey for me if it was released here. For example Grivot Richebourg is now at around CA $1700.

Only Richebourg I ever had is Jean Gros 1987 (not a great vintage) a year or 2 ago… An absolutely fabulous wine! (opened by a friend…). Have 5 bottles locked away (Grivot 2009, 2010 2011).

Antoine…Richebourg is fabulous. Most likely due to its richness which absolutely overwhelmed you and that you were at awe by her [wow.gif] , specially if it was your first encounter with her.

Did your experience remind you of meeting a movie star ( her name is : Sophia ) and that she gave you a big, big hug !! flirtysmile

No denying from me as I felt the same when I did a matching tasting of the Richebourg 1995 from DRC and Leroy in the year 2000.

That being said was the 1987 Richebourg …complete though [whistle.gif] ?

When you will be opening your Grivot 2009, 2010 - could you try to arrange and do a match-tasting alongside with Damoy Chambertin of the same vintage year ? [pillow-fight.gif]

It had quite a lot: superb nose, light but rich and complex, a ballerina on the palate (I prefer them to Movie stars…) but cannot compare withD RC Leroy.
I believe I will open a 2009 (I have 3) in a few years time…say 2024-2025… happy to organise something … but Damoy?.. really?
(by the way, Claude Kolm said it was a star of the vintage and was not surprised it was so good after all these years…

Domiane Pierre Damoy completely changed - to the better - since around 1992 when the new Pierre took over from his uncle Jacques when Jacques lost his son and wife around that time. They own one third of CdBeze and also own 0.49 ha Chambertin. They are the grapes suppliers to many CdBeze.

I got more into Damoy after I read from Bill’s book ( Mr. Nansan ). Bill is right in proclaiming his love all many versions of CdBese ( by Pierre Damoy ) as well as the reds.

Same reviews by Remington Norman - in his third Edition of : The great Domains of Burgundy. Norman concluded by saying that the new Pierre …has to be one of the lucky superstars - of the new generation - due to the holdings of his family.

I sincerely believe his Clos Tamisot ( a monopole of 1.45 ha - with vines planned in 1922-45 ) should be …the most prefer (= Peter chiu’s best ) …village wine in Gevrey.

Thanks …for the additional TNs …which I have no doubt that they are correctly described.

Richebourg has all the great signs of top burgundy…when opened at the right moment …it will also show …its complexity ( which makes one go back again and again to the glass all the evening) and also which is a requirement - in my view - for a wine to be considered : GREAT.

You are also right about matching they style ( & weight of the wine ) between Gros Richeboughs with that from …DRC and/or Leroy. So, Antoine, if I understood correctly : you much prefer a ballerina dancing on your tongue instead of a movie star giving a big hug even thought her name is Sophia [scratch.gif] !!

I’ll also take the big hug… and don’t forget ballerinas can be quite steely… a physical job and they train a lot!

No, Jean Gros’ wines were made by Michel Gros, and A F Gros’ (sister of Michel) is made by her husband Francois Parent, Rb from 1996 onwards.

Your descriptiveness of the Richebourg as a ballerina …was perhaps it was from a one star vintage and also of its age.

Hopefully your encounter of Grivot Richebourg 2009 in 2024 ( at age 15 ) will most likely . [dance-clap.gif] …met my description of a big hug from Sophia.

There is also a possibility that if you open Grivot Richebourg 2011 in 2031 ( at age 20 )…will most like …met your description of a ballerina.

Who knows ? [scratch.gif]