Faiveley Clos de Beze: why do recent vintages cost way more than old vintages?

I got a newsletter from K&L today, offering 2019 Faiveley Clos de Beze for $400.

However, on wine-searcher, older vintages are WIDELY available in the mid-$200s: 2013, 2011, 2006, 2001, 1997, 2008, 2002, 1996, 2014, 2017

Additionally, the 2018 vintage is also around $400 on wine-searcher.

newhere I am new to Burgundy so this kind of pricing is really odd for me. Can someone explain?

Wholesale price on earlier vintages were lower - retailers have not increased prices in line with recent vintages.
Buy the older ones at a discount and get the benefit of bottle age.
I recently bought the 14 at half the price of current.

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I’d be careful about buying the older ones (before 2008) unless you know and like the style. They can be pretty tannic and austere. There was a distinct style change around 2007 to more friendly wines.

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Faiveley and Bouchard are doing great things these days in viticulture and winemaking. Unfortunately that has come with fast rising release prices. So you can backfill cheaper and in some cases it’s a good value, but you’ll also miss out on the improvements in later vintages.

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Thanks all for the info. Burgundy secondary market seems all fucked up IMO. The observation here that a Grand Cru from a prestigious vineyard + reputable producer does not appreciate is really weird. Seems like an unhealthy market where ONLY DRC, Rosseau, etc have rocketed into the stratosphere while other producers try to ride on their coattails. However, the secondary market price action does not lie. There is a glut of Grand Cru in the non tier-1 producers.

This is quite different from the Boardeaux market where aged vintages of 100pt wines normally trade at a premium to new releases.

I think this is a distinctly Faiveley phenomenon because of the fact that was mentioned above. most of those vintages are either before or in the middle of the Faiveley transition in a new direction. I think in a IDTT podcast Erwan basically said he started in 07 but was finally getting the results he wanted in '12. personally, I like this new style more, but the old style should do really well with age. like someone said above, great chance to buy an awesome vineyard with bottle age at a discount (if posting this thread didnt sell it all out lol)

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I agree that many Burg producers (or, often more likely, their importers) have pushed new release prices above what the market will support. Chevillon, for example, is another one, though that is fairly specific as the prices in UK/France/gray market are still in line with backfill levels. I don’t think this is very different from Bordeaux though, in both you can usually backfill all except the top few producers for less than new release.

people have no memory and want the newest releases. This has been going on for decades with all sorts of Burgs. Old Faiveley can be revelatory.

Not always. The 1982 Mouton – one of the first Parker 100-point wines – sells at a small premium ($1,100-$1,300) to the 2016 (~$1,000), and the '82 has sold in the $800-$1,300 range for a decade.

There are lots of anomalies in the wine market. The volume of production of top Bordeaux is so much greater than grand cru Burgundy, that Bordeaux prices tend to be a bit more stable.

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I’ve noticed this too. Release prices go up and up and up but prices realized on the secondary market tend to revert to the mean for most producers.

I’m surprised noone’s mentioned the exponential rise in the price of vineyard land in Burgundy - esp since 2005.
Here are some recent stats: Most expensive vineyards in France 2021 | Statista

I’m surprised noone’s mentioned the exponential rise in the price of grand cru vineyard land in Burgundy - esp since 2005.
Here are some recent stats: Most expensive vineyards in France 2021 | Statista

I took a quick look at wine-searcher just now…looks like a $250-350 wine to me with some outliers on either side that have been explained here. The very few recent listings under that are 2011 and 2013 which almost always run less regardless of wine (some very good values to be found in both). My gut feeling is this is priced where I’d expect it…some really good dirt but this is a domaine bottling by a negotiant who makes quite a bit of this, and even has a reserve version ‘Les Ouvrees Rodin’ which is probably more of a collectible thing. If a vintage like 2014 can be found on sale under $200 I might consider buying some, and the $400 simply reflects significant price increases and perceived demand for 2019, the latest hot new thing.

I bought a 1998 for maybe mid $100s on Commerce Corner in the last year or two. My note is in here:

Nobody has mentioned the 25% tariff, which has applied to wines landed over the past year and a half. That is no doubt a factor on recent vintage prices.

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It’s fascinating and amazing, but I think it’s mostly irrelevant to pricing, since relatively little land changes hands. And, luckily for wine drinkers, in the Old World no one but new entrants looks at returns on the market value of their assets. If they did, and factored in recent land prices, … well … we don’t even want to ponder that.

Anyone know how property taxes work in Burgundy? Are vineyards valuations (and property taxes) reassessed to current values every year? That would explain a lot.

Annual real estate taxes based on taxes – standard in North America – are not at all universal. But evidently France does have a form of real estate tax based on value:
https://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/article/french-taxes-on-property-2018

Wealth tax

This formed part of President Macron’s French tax reforms for 2018. Wealth tax as we knew it –‘ Impôt sur la Fortune’ (ISF) which applied to your household’s total wealth – was repealed and replaced by a new real estate wealth tax – ‘Impôt sur la Fortune Immobilière’ (IFI).

This was good news for savers and investors, since bank accounts and capital investments are no longer liable, but property investors may feel hard done by.

Individuals resident in France are taxed on the value of their worldwide real estate assets as at 1st January each year. This includes all residences – though the value of a main home can be reduced by 30% for wealth tax purposes – holiday homes and investment properties, whether owned directly or indirectly. This is based on the property wealth of the whole household (unmarried couples living together are treated as one household for this purpose).

Non-residents are liable on French real estate, including any rights over property situated in France.

However, you only need to pay wealth tax if your total taxable property assets are worth €1.3 million or more. There is a €800,000 tax-free allowance, and rates start at 0.5% for assets between €800,000 and €1,300,000, rising progressively to 1.5% for assets over €10,000,000.

one of the La Paulee seminars addressed this last month. it doesnt actually have to change hands to matter. inheritance is still taxed at the current value just like a sale would be. For example, Thibaud Clerget was saying he would probably have to sell some of the vineyard he inherited because he couldn’t afford the inheritance tax. Drouhin said that they have been paying it in advance for the next generation for years already.

Yes, inheritance tax has always been a big deal in the wine business in France and, as I recall, the rule that all children inherit equally. But at least you don’t have to pay inheritance tax until the owner dies. John was asking about property taxes of the sort we’re used to, I think.