Burg: 2012, 13, 14 or 15 ?

Just fwiw: I’ve been asked which vintage to open for a tasting now, Echezeaux 2012, 13, 14 or 15?
Same fine traditional producer.

What’s your choice?

My choice would really be none of the above; if forced, I guess 13.

The 12 grand crus I’ve opened lately have still needed time. I have heard some chatter about 13s drinking well (Rousseau) but my general thought is that they really need more time as well. 14 may be the most structured of those vintages, and 15 seems mostly shut down.

Robert, my sense is that it has a lot to do with what you are drinking. For grand crus, I am not sure if any of them are really drinking that well, but over the last year or so I have had a few villages and premier cru wines from 2012 that have been really good. A couple that I have liked a lot have been 2012 Ramonet Pernand-Vergelesses Les Belles Filles and Pierre Amiot Morey St. Denis Les Millandes. Have not had much in the way of 2013 over the last year or so making it hard to compare.

There are already older vintages in the tasting, but the question is between these four.
Which one might show best …?

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I would avoid 2012- the handful of 2012s I have revisited of late are really tightly closed. Still a great vintage, but it is behaving a lot like 2002 in that the wines (or at least the few I have revisited) seem to be in need of a very long rest and are deeply closed after one heck of a honeymoon period at release.

Also no go on 2015. Gorgeous vintage that showed well young, but more an aromatics than a fruit power vintage and so those are shutting down pretty tight (again- small personal sample here, so grain of salt.)

2014 would be my inclination. Very 2008 or 2001 like at release in the sense of showing good detail early even though there will be more with age. That said, a friend opened a 2013 Mugneret-Gibourg a few weeks ago and while it was nowhere near ready, it was displaying its primary fruit quite nicely.

So, between 2013 and 2014- I would open the one for which you have a greater number of bottles. If it is a tie, my gut instinct based on the limited data available would be open the 2014.

As with all things Burgundy: It depends …

As I said earlier, 2014 would be the last of those 4 vintages I would open. The 14 grand crus i’ve opened have been locked down tighter than Fort Knox. I think 14 is to a certain degree like 06 or 08 (I wouldn’t really say it’s that similar to 01 IMO). In my opinion 14 will end up being a gorgeous classic Burgundy vintage in 20 years, but probably will be tight even in 2034. It has good structure and acidity and adequate fruit, and once those things come in balance it will be great.

13 is another vintage that needs time but for a different reason; I think 13s will feel more light bodied now, but will gain in strength a bit, and to a certain degree, the acid may be more prominent than you’d like.

Agree on 12 and 15; 12 is a really nice vintage and at the end of the day IMO has the potential to be the best of these 4 vintages. I went very long on 12 and I think I’ll be rewarded down the line.

BTW, for those wondering if this position is inconsistent with my love of young burgs, my thoughts on Burgundy are that they should be drank very early, or once they come around but not in between.

Rousseau…Echezeaux 2013 …hmm rolleyes .

BTW, for those wondering if this position is inconsistent with my love of young burgs, my thoughts on Burgundy are that they should be drank very early, or once they come around but not in between.

Michael…don’t worry about that [drinkers.gif] .

In the late part of burgundy life, I concentrate on buying just a few wines but in multiple number of bottles including Corton red for its low prices (when compared with other g-crus) For example, one case of 12 + 2; or 2 cases of 12 + 4 to 6 bottles for low prices of 1er cru and village.

Why should I not open - despite the fact perhaps they are at close-down stage - as I like [head-bang.gif] . I am the one who will drink them…and not someone… [swoon.gif] who like aged old wine only.

I do not call them experienced burgundy drinkers - because they do not know much how a close-down red burgundy were liked… [berserker.gif]

13 is another vintage that needs time but for a different reason; I think 13s will feel more light bodied now, but will gain in strength a bit, and to a certain degree, the acid may be more prominent than you’d like.

Thanks for your information. I own multiple bottles of 13 and 14 Domay - Chambertin and CdTasmisot. When young (and surprise to me and our group ) we were more preferred the 2013.

Since covid-19 will be over soon and during this Fall…we will do an event under the Theme : Will Age Tell and Who Would Rule. 2 flights : Same producer; exact AC but different year. Most like we will repeat the event - in Spring of 2022 and perhaps …in the fall of 2022 - if they are not that close-down !!

Thewineclub just offered 13 Hudelot rsv for 495…

Following the general thread, I would agree on the 2013. I have had zero good experiences with Grand Cru level Burgundy from any of those vintages in the past year except 2013 from Rousseau, Georges-Noellat and Hudellot-Noellat. I think 2013 is probably your best shot at getting a good tasting experience.

No experience with Echzeaux…but vote for 2013.

I’ve been dipping into my '12’s and really enjoying them, but no GC’s yet. if not one of these, which would be my first choice, I’d join with Tom and go '14.

'13

Well, thanks to all.
It will not be my bottle, but since I’m no big fan of 13 I hesitate to recommend it, often showing more acidity than fruit.
I think 12 with enough air might show better, even if still tannic the tannins are sweeter.
We 'll see…

Good choice, I’ve consumed about a case of wines from my 2012 stash over the past few years, from good producers: Chevillon, Cathiard, de Montille and Thibault Liger-Belair. All village or premier cru and drinking reasonable well; granted there is upside but it’s not a waste to open them now and for my palate I like the vintage a lot more than 13.

I also like 2014 and it would be my second choice. For my palate the wines are approachable young (but there is no lack of age-ability), almost like a better version of 2007 which drank well in their youth.

Let us know what you end up opening. . .

It’s interesting to see people’s recommendations. Has anyone actually opened GC from 12 or 14 lately?

I’ve had:

12 Marchand Tawse Bonnes Mares : extremely tight but good future potential

14 Drouhin Laroze CdB (don’t even think about it)

12 DRC RSV: probably the most open of the 12s but still way too early.

12 Laurent Roumier CdV: ok, would probably be better with time but not that much there.

14 DRC RSV: way tighter than the 12.

14 Lignier CDLR (not my bottle): big mistake, didn’t budge in 4 hours.

The only ech I’ve opened lately have been 09, 17 and 18, though.

I think it really depends on the cuvée and the producer. I think 13s are really variable, for example, but some are excellent. Whereas I’ve not had any 15s that are remotely ready recently, while I think with some exceptions the 14s are shutting down. I’ve had a number of Fourrier’s 14 clos st Jacques recently, and while they’re a bit closed on the palate, they’re absolutely explosive on the nose (yes, I know, not a grand cru, don’t care). Whereas the 15 clos st Jacques is, whole somewhat open, a MASSIVE wine that’s nowhere near ready.
So without knowing more info, this is a complete crapshoot.

  • 2014 Domaine Dujac Clos de la Roche - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Clos de la Roche Grand Cru (8/3/2020)
    Served blind in a flight of 4 CdlRs. Spicy nose with a ton of stem inclusion. Red fruit, very pretty. Lithe, silky palate, young and shows the sappy attractiveness of 14 with strawberry and raspberry fruit, medium complexity on the palate. Engaging finish, this is lovely but will be special in a few years. (94 pts.)
  • 2014 Domaine Dujac Echezeaux - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Echezeaux Grand Cru (9/19/2017)
    Blind tasting at VVW of 10 2014s from the Cote de Nuits. My #1 wine, groups #1 wine.
    Beautiful red fruited nose, lovely stem inclusion shows sandalwood and spice. The palate is ultra silky even today, with excellent balance between the ripe fruit and refined tannins. This showed best tonight in a strong flight that included Ponsot CdlR and Chambertin, Clos de Tart and 2 Richebourgs. (94 pts.)
  • 2014 Thibault Liger-Belair Corton-Les Renardes - France, Burgundy, Côte de Beaune, Corton Grand Cru (1/20/2017)
    VVW tasting. Beautiful nose of red fruits, sandalwood and spice. The stems and oak spice combine for a very alluring nose. The palate starts off very 14 with bright approachable red fruits and a silky saline texture. With air this firms up and becomes more clenched and tannic. Very strong wine from a vintage that I love. (93 pts.)

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In answer to Michael’s question. . .