"Smoky wines" - terroir vs. winemaking

Interesting article by Dan Keeling in the latest Noble Rot on what he terms “smoky wines” (he calls out white Burg - Coche-Dury, Roulot, etc. but also Cote-Rotie). It’s semantics, but I would say flinty, matchsticky, even burnt popcorny rather than smoky for the burgs he’s referring to, and smoked meat rather than smoke per se for the Cote-Rotie. In any case, he brought up that the contributors to these types of wines (not just white burgs) can be use of toasted oak, terroir, and reductive winemaking, then goes on to make an example of Tissot’s Arbois chardonnays having major differences in smokiness based on vineyard and soil type - with a clay-driven vineyard providing smokiness that a nearby limestone vineyard does not.

My question for everyone, for white burg in particular, what is the real driver of that flint/matchstick characteristic - is it inherently a combination of the terroir/soil and winemaking style (probably)? And if so, does that still make sense when you have an Oregon chard that’s a dead ringer with the same character? (such as a recent side by side of 2018 Henri Boillot Mouchere and 2018 Walter Scott X-Novo)

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In my estimation, there is an inherent flintiness in a lot of great Chardonnay that doesn’t feel interventionist; every expression of world-class Chardonnay seems to have some kind of “mineral” element in it. For me, it’s more evident on the palate than the nose in a lot of cases and especially the finish.

That said, I don’t think it’s a matter of terroir that every single (great!) Pierre-Yves Colin-Morey wine I’ve ever had, regardless of hierarchical place, shows a streak of reduction/matchstick/smoke. That said, I do think it takes skill to seamlessly integrate and “elevate” this element into the structure and expression of the wine, so I don’t have a problem with it. To me, it just shows someone who understands the grape and understands how to handle it in the winery.

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How the oak shows on a wine can definitely be a matter of vineyard. I’ve tasted wines with high amounts of new wood that barely showed it. I’ve also tasted wines with low amounts that show a lot. Plus, there are likely other factors in the winemaking process that can allow wood to show more than other wines with different techniques. I think that’s a lot of what the recent thread discussing how the oak shows on Ridge wines was about underneath.

The thing is before RMP was made into the enemy of all good palates out there people didn’t seem to make so much hay over oak levels. It was just part of the deal. Now it’s cool to say any sign of new wood would make you cringe.

Almost all great, classic wines from the lifetimes of members of this board(prior to the great anti-oak campaigns of the last couple decades) likely show some influence of wood upbringing. Because almost all of them saw some amount of time in oak prior to bottling. The great wines likely came from vineyards where that wood was soaked in like spice.

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Wow, I’ve never before read a comparison of matchstick/flint to ‘smoky’ before. I guess I can see how one might draw that comparison, but at what time is ‘smokiness’ ever a good thing, unless it is smoked meats in a Syrah, for example? Smoke, as a flavor/aroma, is typically seen as negative, a flaw, and I don’t see flint/matchstick as one, even if it is reduction, technically (is it not?).

I don’t like when Chardonnay, in particular, tastes of the char from the oak treatment, but again, wholly different from flinty

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Matchstick: Reductive.
Popcorn: Oak.
Smoked meats (Syrah): grape characteristic.

Thats how i would call them blind. So this is a simplification. But i don’t think terroir has so much to say in this regard, though i would not completely disregard that some vineyards could enhance it based on the natural yeast that will be on the grapes from the vineyard.
(a topic that still requires a lot more research, but some interesting thoughts on it in Jamie Goode’s new 3rd edition of his book: Wine Science)

In Etna (nerello mascalese) wines i do get a smokey vibe. That could be terroir maybe? Or just my brain telling me a story because i know where it comes from :smiley:

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Red Bordeaux from Graves/Pessac-Leognan? They often exhibit an elegant smokiness.

From Jeffois:

Pessac Leognan wine styles, taste and character: The red wines from Pessac Leognan and Graves are produced in a myriad of styles ranging from simple wines meant to be enjoyed in their youth, to full-bodied, rich, elegant wines redolent of smoke, tobacco, cassis, dark cherry, leather, tar and truffle flavors with textures of silk and velvet. The best red Pessac Leognan can age for decades, and in some cases over 100 years!
Read more at:> Learn about Pessac Leognan Graves Bordeaux, Best Wines, Vineyards

I don’t have an answer, but have been puzzling the same question as I explore Oregon Chardonnay, and find a whole lot of matchstick in some of them, even at times to excess.

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That matchstick thing was the reason I returned 2 bottles of Ridge estate Chardonnay. I thought they were flawed after that sulfur note didn’t blow off. After reading and learning more, I tried another one to see if I could taste through it. Opened and decanted for 3 hours. Just couldn’t get past that sulfurous tinge. May be great wine but I don’t like it. That is ok though, can’t love everything.

Wow…very interesting thread.

Several months ago I did a Zoom tasting with Thomas Monroe and Kate Norris of Division Wine Co in Oregon. I specifically asked them about the flinty/matchstick thing, and they were both pretty convinced it was a terroir thing, as it varied by site, even with consistent winemaking/elevage.

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But would you get the note without reductive winemaking? Based on everything i tasted from Jura, I would say that this is mainly coming from how a wine is produced and not based on its terrior.

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Certainly reductive winemaking is important, but if the same growing/picking strategies and winemaking techniques are employed, and the results are strikingly different, then what?

I also believe the matchstick thing to be from winemaking and not terroir. Many in CA, OR and even in Australia are able to achieve it with a combo of reductive winemaking and selective lees contact.

The intersting thing to me is that this should ‘blow off’ with time and/or oxidation. Anyone ever try the penny trick with these to see if it went away?

Cheers

Some sites will, all things being equal, tend to produce more reductive wines than others; but, all things are seldom equal, and e.g. a parcel that is farmed in such a way that the vines produce nitrogen deficient musts will tend to produce reductive wines as a result; just as a grower who applies sulfur treatments late in the season is more likely to end up with reduction in the resulting wines. Thus, site differences are heavily modulated by viticulture as well as winemaking, and in some instances we conflate farming differences with site differences. It’s really rare to have the same rootstocks, vine genetics and farming between two parcels in Burgundy, for example, where everything has been planted at different times with different stuff.

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What I was aiming at was that if it does not appear without a certain winemaking technic can it then be terrior? That said, and as noted before, then I don’t entirely disregard that something might enhance the note.

But it is an academic question. You would have to pick grapes from two sites at the exact same time and from that point on do everything in the exact same manner and time to answer it.

I just had this note at different levels from so many different places and grapes that i seriously doubt it is a terrior thing.

Without winemaking techniques, we wouldn’t have any wines of any kind…

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Getting back to the “smoky” taste, I often get a smoky taste in chardonnay that I have been assured by the finest minds is not (necessarily) due to oak (i.e., not oak char or that certain burnt flavor). Josh Raynolds in a note on an Oregon chardonnay attributed the smoky element to contact with the lees. Does that sound plausible?

Of course I wasn’t talking about Burgundy, and there seems to be more homogeneity in US vineyards - limited clonal selections, large vineyards, sometimes multiple vineyards handled by the same vit teams, etc.

There are going to be a gazillion variables, and there will be no absolute answer in this thread, as is the case for most discussions of terroir and origin of wine aromas/flavors. It’s an endlessly interesting rabbit hole that also happens to be bottomless.

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Certainly—or plenty of other things. It would be a mistake to imagine that even winemakers know necessarily.

Where were you when Diogenes was looking around? You would have saved him a lot of fruitless searching. [cheers.gif]

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