What is Mouton, Really?

Charlie Fu and I were having an offline discussion about Mouton after he bashed it to hell after another disappointing bottle of the 1983. Mouton is meh/bleh, he noted. When has Mouton ever really nailed it even 3 times in any 5 year period, or put forth a dominant decade of wine, relative to the vintage?

While I don’t think Mouton is meh/bleh, we did agree that it was generally, vintage to vintage, at the bottom of the first growth hierarchy. And distinctly so. I noted that Mouton was, in my opinion, something akin to Pichon Lalande, though perhaps historically at least a little bit better with more of those legendary wines, though I’ll take 82 Pichon Lalande over just about anything (or would have in prior years). Pichon Lalande makes very good wines in good vintages, occasionally struggles in less than stellar vintages and, perplexingly, occasionally shits the bed in sterling vintages. And isn’t that Mouton? High highs, lower lows, and quizzical disappointments?

Fu noted that Mouton, unlike Lalande, doesn’t demand first growth expectations. I think that’s a fair point.

So where should Mouton actually stand among the Bordelaise? What wines do you think, historically or in current style, that it most closely resembles? If we’re re-ranking today, taking into account that past 60 years of wines, is Mouton even close to a First Growth?

Idk 86 mouton last month was pretty f-ing bomb.

Cool labels.

'83 Mouton was never very good; I was fortunate to trade mine before arrival for more '82 Haut Brion. And Pichon Lalande is a poor comparison, as PLL never made a wine as great as Mouton made in '45, '59, '61, '82, and '86. Others, too, I’m sure, but I’ve had both PLL and Mouton head to head from those vintages and there is no real comparison, even in '82, which is the best PLL I’ve ever tasted.

Mouton has historically made stunning wines in multiple decades.

40’s, (46, 46, 48, 49) 50’s, (60, 53, 55, 59) 61, (weak until 82) 80’s, ( 82, 85 and 86,) they were moderate in the 90s, (the weakest of the Firsts). Starting with 2005, they go head to head with any First Growth though they really kick back into high gear with 2009. 09/10/14/15/16/18/19/20 they are as good of better than the other firsts.

Mouton /

Today, not only is Mouton the equal of any First, on a continuous basis, their second wine could be the best second wine in Bordeaux.

Looking at Mouton based on the 83 is ridiculous. Except for Margaux, all the 83 Firsts are weak.

FWIW, Pichon L was weak in the 20’s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and except for 82, which is great, they didn’t return consistently to the top of the class until maybe 2015. Yes some years are good, 85, 89, 86 if you like it, which I don’t, 96, 00, 03 are good, good but they were always a step behind Pichon B.

Pichon Lalande - Learn about Chateau Pichon Lalande Pauillac, Complete Guide

Today they are killing it making the best wines I’m the history of the estate!

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82 Mouton is as great a Bordeaux as it gets….45,47,59 and 61 and 2000 are legendary.PLL 82 is their best and cannot be in considered in the same ballpark as Mouton🍷

I thought the 1975, 1978 and 1979 PLs were quite good for the vintages. I know Jeff does not like virtually any wines from 1975 and 1979, but I don’t see the notion that PL was weak in the 1970s. I also thought PL was quite good in 1986. Of course, Jeff thinks that everyone in Bordeaux is now making the best wines in the history of their estates.

That said, I would take Haut Brion over any other first growth.

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Consistency at Mouton was not just a problem with vintage variation, but also among the bottles themselves. Both1982 and 1986 can be magnificent, but there is a perverse of lesser bottles as well.

This problem was addressed and to my knowledge solved in the 2000s, and Mouton is now in very definitely a First Growth.

One of the criteria fore to be a First Growth is to have an occasional wine of the vintage. Mouton clearly does that, but much as I like many super seconds, very few manage it. Perhaps Pichon Lalande in 1982 and the good bottles of Montrose 1990. But much as I love Ducru and Palmer, I cat think of an example recently, although the freakish 2018 Palmer apparently may be a candidate.

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What is a more appropriate comparison? You’ve identified 5 wines, 86 aside all from rather legendary vintages, and 5 great wines in 76 years. Shouldn’t the expectation in vintages like 45, 59, 61, and 82 be absolutely spectacular wines if you wish to stand on the highest pedestal? Is hitting true excellence 5 times in 76+ years that the standard for a legendary First Growth?

I’ve heard literally no one claim 2000 Mouton as legendary until this post. And you’ve identified a 40 year gap of greatness, interrupted by two vintages famous for bottle variation in 82 and 86 which, when on, are sublime. I’d argue that I’ve had more spectacular bottles of 82 PLL than 86 Mouton, and 86 Mouton is exceptional when on. If PLL is a poor fit, what’s a better fit?

Much of this is true. I am not a fan of any non-sweet 1975 Bordeaux, though Latour and LMHB are the best of them.

The majority of Bordeaux was weak and inconsistent in the 70s, though of course there are exceptions.

And yes, today most estates are at the top of their game, though my point was that starting with 2016 PLL kicked into high-gear for numerous reasons.

Is there any kind of consensus that Lalande was always a step behind Baron? Certainly not from a critical acclaim standpoint from the 80s forward…but then again I haven’t had many from the 20s-60s, aside from some 55s. I readily acknowledge that your experiences vastly outweigh mine, but the information you’ve conveyed is inconsistent with what I’d read elsewhere. And my experiences with Baron v. Lalande from the 70s and 80s is tilted towards Lalande.

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I am quite comfortable in my own opinion, I’ve tasted and retasted these wines a lot. I’m not focused on consensus opinions. You can read notes on 56 vintages of PL back to 1949 and 65 vintages of PB back to 1900 on my site.

As for Mouton, you can peruse 83 vintages back to 1925. And while you can disagree, they are First Growth in quality.

All that being said, as for PL v PB, you can compare scores from a myriad of trusted sources or taste the wines to decide.

As for the 70s, it was piss poor for both estates, though PL is better, in the 80s, PL is better. From 89-2014, PB is the better wine. All this completion however means the consumer is the winner!

I love Mouton. The style resonates with me, where Margaux and Lafite consistently underwhelm me.

Different strokes.

I love mouton,
1982- just hitting its peak. Better than Lafite, HB, not as good as Latour.
86- amazing, just beginning to open
89 not HB level but as good as any other first growth -
90, okay weakest of the first growths
95 better than several of the 1st growths
96- same
98- excellent

I have not opened many past 98 recently except a rather disappointing 2002.

I’m surprised that no one here seems to like the 1983 Mouton, which I found to be elegant and enjoyable when I had it. But perhaps it’s the infamous bottle variation at play here. All I can say is, my spouse and I like Mouton enough to name our dog after it

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Compare Mouton with any of the other firsts and their equivalents from Pomerol and St Emilion. Latour and Haut Brion are the most consistent, but they and the others all have had periods and vintages where they underperformed.

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what does the dog think about that?

The dog enjoys meeting up with his siblings Margaux, Harlan and Kenzo. Sometimes we even drink their namesakes

Piss poor??!!

Not sure what you have been tasting but Pichon Lalande made some excellent wines in the seventies, starting with the ‘70 itself. Although you don’t like 1975s, they made an excellent wine, the 1976 was pleasant enough young but aged rapidly, the ‘78 was sub par, but the 1979 was delicious, although now fading. I have not had the 1971 or restated the 1976 recently but nobody made good wines in 1972, 1973, 1977 and only La Mission and Trotanoy made decent 1974s. So it was a pretty hopeless decade for everybody, but Pichon Lalande certainly held its own.

I think you are also damning with faint praise the early 1980s. No recent notes on 1980, 1984, but 1981 was decent, 1982 was legendary, the 1983 we had on Thursday was so good, I bought more, and the 1985 and 1986 are also superb.

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