"Reductive" (non oxidative) Champagne

I think, little by little, I’ve concluded that I don’t really enjoy purposefully oxidative white wine in general and that it extends to Champagne. I can tolerate it. If it’s well-made, I can appreciate the good work, but I don’t really enjoy the flavors. The latest white wine case was a Savennières I had (typically oxidative winemaking in that appellation) that I disliked a lot, even though I love good Vouvray: same grape, same region, traditionally distinguished from Savennières as much by its reductive winemaking style as by its cooler climat.

There’s already a thread on No Malo Champagne that I’ve started to try to pursue in buying. But, while related, it’s not clear which producers use a reductive approach, or at least one which isn’t noticeably oxidative. Searches for reductive notes here mention a Krug BdB, a Salon, Laherte-Freres and a Roederer (that I could find).

Can anyone point me to good reductive or at least not noticeably oxidative Champagnes?

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I think Krug is more oxidative.
Dom Perignon is a classic, smokey reductive champagne.
Roederer is often reductive. Ruinart too. I’ve had some recent bottles of Taittinger Comtes that were highly reductive, despite some aging in oak. Billecart Salmon can be reductive. I’ll think of some more…

Cheers,
Warren

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Lanson is the one that springs to my mind in terms of no malo, reductive champagne approach. I did a tasting of various Lanson vintages 5 or 6 years ago and found them too reductive for my taste at the time though the Lanson extra age release is currently my favourite champagne.

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Lanson is what first popped in my mind too.

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I have found similarly that I am not a fan of oxidative styles in Champagne. For me, that means that I only age a few Champagnes (as there are a few exceptions to the aged Champagne that I really do enjoy. For me, that means drinking many/most Champagnes within the first 3-6 years of purchase. Producers I’ve found that do not seem oxidative in this early stage of life include Dom Perignon, Cedric Bouchard, Taittinger Comtes, Heidsieck Blanc des Millenaires, and it seems that most Blanc de Blancs are safe as they seem less oxidative in style on release.

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Bollinger. Particularly the Grand Annee. Barrel vinified.

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Thanks Warren.

And yes, the search here, if I recall correctly, said there was one particular bottling of Krug BdB that was reductive (unclear which) but contrasted it to the more oxidative notes on another Krug.

I’m with you guys. I just don’t dig the oxidative style of champagne, and as such I don’t really enjoy Krug. I try, as I feel like I should…but it never shines for me.

Dom P, Cristal, and Taittinger Comtes align much better with my palate, as does Piper-Heidsieck Rare.

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I think you have to be careful with reductive vs. oxidative and really define the meaning of what oxidative is or what style you are looking for. Wines made in a reductive, stainless steel environment can taste identical to wines made in a more oxidative, barrel aged environment - especially as they age. This can lead to a very reductive wine that has seen a lot of reserve wines or post-disgorgement aging tasting similar to a wine made in what would be defined as a more oxidative environment. Likewise, wines made in barrel, can still come across as reductive.

Krug really isn’t all that oxidative. The wine spends most of its life in a reductive environment. Put it in a lineup of other barrel aged or oxidative wines and it is a very quiet soul. There is a lot more that goes into the Krug style than the three months the wines spend in fairly old oak barrels.

Outside of the general statement of reductive vs. oxidative, I think you really need to define if you are looking for richness, bright fruit, spice, steely sharpness, creamines, etc…

For example, Vilmart is made in oak and the Coeur de Cuvee is made in a mix of new to 3 year old barrels. The wines do not come across as oxidative at all, but rather what I would classify as more reductive with spicy notes. Charles Heidsieck is reductive in style, but the wines can be quite rich and creamy. Pierre Peters is also more reductive in style, but with time or when you drink a wine of Rodolphe’s that has a good amount of reserves in it, you get something that is both rich, creamy, bright, fruity, and sharp.

Complicating things even more is that you need to look at how the winemaking is handled in terms of sulfur use especially at disgorgement. I’ve seen wines taste reductive in one environment and very oxidative in another based on the what I can only call mishandling at disgorgement. Low/No sulfur wines often don’t travel well internationally and that can lead to a wine tasting one way in Champagne and completely differently in North America.

Some classic producers who are on the purity side of things and reductive in style are: Piper-Heidsieck, Veuve Clicquot, Lilbert, Pierre Peters, Lancelot-Pienne, Laurent-Perrier, Billecart-Salmon, Guiborat, Gosset, and Ruinart.

On the richer, but still reductive side to me would be Charles Heidsieck, Dom Perignon, Taittinger, Roederer, A Margaine, Hure, Etienne Calsac, Vilmart, Hebrart, Geoffroy.

There are lots, lots more, but above is what popped to mind first.

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Thanks Brad - super helpful!

Its interesting that Krug isn’t really made in an oxidative style, but it sure comes across that way to me. Do you think its actually something else that im tasting with Krug that seems oxidative?? Or maybe im just super sensitive to it, as a little bit definitley throws things off a lot for me. Thx!

Rich,

Krug starts its life off as a bit oxidative and the end result is more oxidative than reductive, but not by much in my book. The grape mix that Krug uses, the lower pH, the picking choices, and higher acidity of the grapes used all come in to play along with the small oak barrels used for fermenting and the general lack of malolactic fermentation. There is some spice to Krug and some nuttiness, but those flavors/aromas are not unique to just oxidative wines. The wines also tend to have a decent amount of age either from time on the lees or the inclusion of reserve wines (sometimes both). Reserve wines with age show maturity or what many call oxidative-like characteristics even if they are kept in a reductive envrionment. The choices Krug makes during the process of creating their wines results in a unique profile. At the end, you get something that some people don’t like or would even call disjointed/unbalanced. I love Krug, but my wife can take it or leave it. She would rather have bright fruit and some soft creamy notes in her wine.

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Philliponnat is becoming one of my go to champagnes but I know Gossett try to make a non-oxiditive style but sometimes it does happen.

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while I could easily go to their site to get more info, I’d love to hear/read you more describe approach as I would’ve thought them to be in the slightly oxidative category just based on taste (though it also tastes like they use oak aging and that could be confusing me when I drink them)

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your posts are always such a highlight. Having you and William here is such a delight. Thanks you.

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Thank you Brad. Really. A lot. There’s a lot to process in your comment so I’m going to divide it into two.

I think your definition point is good but Champagne has so many flavor aspects that those of us who haven’t had the benefit of tasting hundreds while knowing the specific production process can find it hard to differentiate among them: there’s grape mix (if any); Malo vs No Malo; Reductive vs Oxidative (sometimes related to wood vs stainless); reserve wines; autolytic notes of sur lattes aging; Maillard-like reactions with the dosage post disgorgement; length of time aging… And that’s all before you get to vintage. Not to mention in rosés you also add the complexity of red wine blending vs maceration vs potentially actual saignée process.

All that means that, for me as a consumer in relatively limited quantities, differentiating the effects of one technique from the effects of another is particularly hard when I’m not sure which are/were used in the wines I’m drinking or have had in the past, and most reviews and technical sheets don’t go into that.

And, with my limited budget I can’t do side-by-side tastings to determine this even if I had the production-style *data. And that’s why I refer back to other wines where the effects of a technique have more overall impact and extrapolate that to Champagne.

I guess by asking, and then tasting using your suggestions, what I’m ultimately trying to do is to understand if oxidative is my problem or not or if it is in combination with other techniques. I’m trying to get you to tell me what’s what so that I can turn around and correct my vocabulary to be more precise. Like teaching a kid a language, you point to something blue and say “blue” and at some point despite all the tones of blue, it becomes clear what blue is.

For example, I ordered a 2012 Gosset Grand Millesime that I haven’t tried yet. Now that you confirm it’s reductive in style, and we know that Gosset doesn’t do malolactic, and since it’s a vintage Champagne it won’t have reserve wines (assemblage), that leaves the blend, the autolytic notes of sur lattes aging, and Malliard-like reactions with the dosage… This is my thought process. Do you think it holds water or am I off?

*Edit: Original said ‘date’ instead of ‘data’.

With all that in mind, which again I appreciate immensely, and going purely by memory, I’m puzzled because Veuve Clicquot has never seemed to be on the purity side to me for some reason. Piper-Heidsieck yes. I think Laurent-Perrier too. Charles Heidsieck seems less rich to me than Veuve Clicquot but maybe my memory is wrong and I just don’t have enough Veuve. Even standard Moet is in my mind less rich than Veuve. (Again my memory could be failing me on this.)

I will try to delve into this list as much as possible. I already have coming the 2012 Gosset and some 2009 Cristal, Laurent-Perrier Iteration 24, and 2012 Lassalle Premier Cru Special Club, all of which I ordered before this “reductive” decision to see how I like them. I still have a couple of the NV Charles Heidsieck of the long sur lattes era. I was actually thinking of Laherte-Freres and Marie Courtin based on other notes but you listed neither. But your list helps a lot.

I agree Alan. I feel much more confident with Brad’s input and William’s.

Guillermo,

Quick reply on Laherte and Marie-Courtin:

I would classify Marie-Courtin as more reductive than oxidative although there can be some bottle variation in my experience.

Laherte spans the spectrum depending on the wine. Overall, most are on the reductive side, but some move into the oxidative territory. The entry level wines tend to be reductive while some of the higher end wines can lean more towards oxidative.

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I think you are tasting the oak in Hure and not oxidation or an oxidative style. Hure, like Vilmart has a deft hand with oak. I think it is easy to associate oak with ‘oxidative’, but they are not the same thing (at least to me). Classifying wines as one or the other can be difficult and depending on how people interpret or define the words, you can get very different opinons. Heck, you can even let the grape musts fully oxidize prior to fermentation and end up with a fresh, fruity, reductive Champagne at the end.

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This is awesome Brad! I really appreciate the detailed response and the education! Cheers to you - hope you have a great Thanksgiving!

Brad, what about Ruppert Leroy Les Cogneuax?

Whatever is going on there I like. LOL

Seems like reduction/oxidation is the champagne version of whole cluster versus oak in still wines.

You’re never really sure…

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