I have had some issues with both the '15 Tempier rouge (Classique, not the single vineyard wines) and '16 Donjon. Upon opening and first smell, I get a slightly effervescent nose and prickly palate which I do not enjoy. I always pass to my wife, who enjoys wine but certainly doesn’t try to analyze it, for a second opinion and she always turns it down. The '14 Tempier has none of it and I have had close to a case, but the '15 has had it across the board, I have also had close to a case. Never noticed it with Tempier before this '15 and I have had a lot. I haven’t had a bottle of '16 Tempier in a while but I think it was present although less pronounced. I will decant the wines (progressively longer with every bottle that I have tried) and generally double decant at the end of the night when I have given up on the bottle for the night and try over the subsequent days. Days help but don’t eliminate. I generally will find the wine drinkable by day 3 but the structure of the wine isn’t what it once was. I have had 2 '16 Donjons and they both had, the last bottle was undrinkable even after a similar process on day 3. There are plenty of notes on cellar tracker describing. Please tell me this isn’t a new style for Tempier because I love their wines and have bought a lot of '15s and '16s. If not, what is the fault? I don’t see notes for what I am experiencing on cellartracker but I have experienced the issue across the board with this batch. These are not Kermit Lynch imported Tempiers, we haven’t been able to get KL wines in Chattanooga for 4-5 years now, could that be it? All of these wines are from the same retailer, could there have been a heat issue in the importation? I have looked up volatile acidity, carbonic maceration, and secondary fermentation but not experienced enough with any of them to make a conclusion. I know both wines are still babies but will time help, if so, how much? Had similar issues with Beaujolais and too a much lesser extent some burgundy (most recently a PYCM NSG rouge which was very drinkable after decanting) which I think is carbonic maceration but I don’t think Tempier or Donjon use CM? Thanks for the help.
Is it just effervescence? That should go away pretty quickly with decanting, or even just pouring in the glass.
What exactly do the Cellartracker notes say?
I thought Donjon was brought in by Weygandt?
Are you sensitive to brettanomyces?
Or to paragraph breaks?
I don’t think it is brett.
Been a long-time drinker of Beaucastel, never had an issue.
Never had an issue with Tempier before.
With regard to cellartracker on donjon, 4 of the last 13 entries were flawed on no points, mentioning fizzy, VA, secondary fermentation.
An example of why you need to read the entries beyond the score because the 93.3 ave score doesn’t account for those observations.
I bought the '16 donjon back in 3/18 before the wine had hit the states.
Enough
Paragraph
Breaks?
It sounds like something went wrong along the path of those getting to you. Are both from a common distributor, or retail store?
Okay, was just thinking - sometimes I get brett spoilage at the same time as re-fermented issues. Perhaps what was a small but beneficial amount of brett was activated by higher shipping temperatures. In any event, my condolences for your losses - those should be great wines!
Yes, same store both bought in '18 prearrival. Are you thinking heat? The Tempier arrived at the shop in June but the other wines that arrived at the same time including bordeaux, another CDP, and burgundy, had no issues, it was shipped to me in October, no issues with the other wines shipped to me. The Donjon arrived at the shop in November so wouldn’t think there was a heat issue there, shipped in December.
Interesting thought, I guess anything can happen on its way overseas during the summer but I am certainly under the impression everything is refrigerated on the way over and I think the Donjon arriving in November eliminates that variable. Trying not to mention the shop by name if it has nothing to do with them but people would recognize the website.
Yes, it is disappointing, particularly for the Tempier because I bought a lot of the '15s… and '16s thinking the vintages would have been very good. I know they are still young but this is the time of year when I would be drinking the Classiques but I will wait if the “flaw” will go away in time. Wish I had gone big on the '14s, they were very good, just down to a couple of the Classiques and the single vineyards though.
I don’t think I specifically responded. It doesn’t go away immediately with decanting for either wine, at least with several hours but does seem to dissipate with time. I do see some notes talking of effervescence and fizz with the '16 Tempier Classique, just don’t see any with the '15s. I may be misremembering from last year but I may have even seen a very thin layer of foam when I decanted. I may have also had a bottle pop a bit but this would have been last winter so can’t be sure. I just know the bottle I had last weekend still had the problem, no foam or pop though, and have been meaning to post since.
Effervescence doesn’t necessarily mean a secondary fermentation. It can just be leftover CO2 from fermentation when the wine is not moved around a lot between casks and barrels while aging. It can make the wine seem a bit tart (CO2 dissolved in water makes the water acidic).
I’m still not clear on whether that was what put you off, or if there was something else. You said there were CT notes mentioning VA in the Donjon, which is not uncommon in Southern Rhones. Were there off aromas on the Tempier?
Not all importers pay for refrigerated containers. Some just ask that their loads be stored below deck, out of the sun. Since the Tempier was grey-marketed, that makes it less likely it was refrigerated en route.
As John says. Our warehouse tells us that most of the containers they unload are not refrigerated. I tried the ‘below deck’ thing many years ago, but when I put a recording thermometer in two containers the results were scary. We’ve used reefers ever since, and refrigerated trucking on the other side maybe 9 months of the year.
No, I did not notice off aromas, just covered up a bit by the spritz. On day 2 to 3, came close to drinking like tempier and enjoyable just a little too open at that point and still a hint of the effervescence.
I believe it and eye opening. Curious though on why I would have the issue with Rhône from them and not burgundy in the same shipment. I would think of Rhône as pretty durable.
I was only referring to the shipping temperature question. As far as your original question it does sound like dissolved CO2, which some people are much more sensitive to than others; I don’t mind it, my colleague Michele finds it very annoying. Mourvedre certainly has a tendency to brett but I don’t see the connection between an impression of fizziness and brett. Re-fermentation in dry red wines like these seems unlikely.
What you report from your warehouse is VERY interesting, Oliver. I’d assumed that a higher proportion went in reefers these days.
Paul - Why do you assume the Donjon came on the same container with the Burgundy?
Also, consider that there have been terrible delays in shipments over the past year. Someone posted about a container of old wines from London sitting off the coast of LA for a month or more. There were bad delays on the East Coast, too. A friend in the trade in NY said that the time from cellar door in France to NY warehouse could run 12 or 15 weeks now, versus 6-8 weeks in normal times. So a container could easily have been sitting somewhere for a while. Even if the wine first landed on the shelf in the fall, it could well have been in transit during a warm period.
Both wines arrived in California in ‘18, tempier in June but at the same time as burgundy and Bordeaux that I ordered (almost everything is prearrival and I received an email that all of these wine arrived on a specific day), same container, I do not know. The donjon arrived in November of 18 so I would not think heat played a part. I shipped them to Chattanooga that fall/winter, respectively.
When the fizz is as persistent as you describe, that usually seems bacterial, in my experience. I say that because I don’t always notice brett, but I do usually notice bacterial faults such as sauerkraut aroma and mousy taint. When it’s really just a small amount of dissolved CO2 (like with Fourrier and many white wines), decanting seems to get rid of it completely in 20-30 minutes at most. Since you’re not getting any off aromas now, I would drink the wines in the next year or so. If there’s something microbial going on, there’s a good chance that those off aromas will emerge over time. Maybe I’m wrong and there’s nothing to worry about, but I would not take the chance.
To get rid of the fizz more quickly and effectively, I sometimes pour the wine back and forth between bottle and decanter a few times. Then I refill the bottle minus a few ounces, replace the cork, shake vigorously, and then pour back into the decanter. If there are still any bubbles, they should dissipate much more quickly after that, especially if you swirl the wine in the decanter and shake it up a bit in there.
If you have a lot of either of these and really want to know if you have a problem, you could send a sample to a lab.