So we recently had a few wines from the Alps of France that could only be described as terroir-driven. It caused me to think (yeah…I do do that occasionally):
There are those who worship at the altar of terroir…that the highest calling of any wine is to express its origins…its terroir. There are others who worship at the altar of varietal typicity…that the highest calling of any wine is to express its varietal character.
So which is it?? Some of these wines spoke overwhelming of their terroir that I could not/barely ferret out any varietal character. Since I didn’t have any of the Parker-scores for these wines, danged if I could figure out if I was supposed to like them or not.
So…which is it that’s supposed to be valued…terroir or varietal typicity?? Or do all these folks at these altars…are they worshiping false Gods???
Tom
Terroir has many more dimensions and is therefor more interesting.
Tom -
Naming the wines that “spoke overwhelmingly of their terroir” but from which you “could … barely ferret out any varietal character” might help frame your question.
In the absence of that, my initial answer it that terroir expression and varietal typicity are both important - and that I can’t remember finding a clear expression of place in the absence of varietal typicity.
But perhaps I don’t fully appreciate your question…
Cheers,
Bob
Hmmm, Kevin…I guess I could go along with that. The wines I seem to like the most are those that express both terroir and
varietal character. When I was tasting this Arbois Chard…very terroir-driven… it reminded me a lot of those Chards/WhiteRiesling/Sylvaners
that DaveBennion made back in the late '60’s/early '70’s…wines that were very SCM terroir-driven…w/ little of what I thought of as Chard
character. Contrasted w/ those of DavidBruce’s Chards of that era…which had little of that SCM Chard terroir to them. I used to go ape-$hit
over David’s Chards. But down the road w/ more age, Dave’s Chards were the most interesting to me.
Tom
Terroir, though you can’t really separate them (different grapes grown on the same soil will probably show different aspects of the terroir).
Frankly, the basic fruit flavors of grapes aren’t hard to get and really are the least interesting part of a wine. What makes wine fascinating are the complexities over and above the fruit. What makes aged wines interesting are the non-fruit notes. Add those to the presence of fruit and it’s interesting.
Tom,
If you believe that the best or most exciting wine experiences need to be unique, individual, distinctive or hard to replicate than only terroir expression can deliver those qualities. By definition, varietal expression is a commodity since a great number of vineyards can produce wine that is typical of the varietal. I would also argue that “varietal expression” if defined to exclude “terroir expression” has much fewer dimensions.
Here are a few questions that help me answer your question-
Does Cabernet (or Merlot or Can Franc) expression make Haut Brion great?
Is La Tache about Pinot Noir?
Does the varietal Chardonnay component of Les Preuses make it great?
When I think of the world’s truly greatest wines, more often than not the vineyard expression overwhelms the varietal contribution. These wines taste like nothing else even if using the same grape.
I’m with Kevin’s great post above.
So I might be cheating a bit since I was with Tom when we tasted these wines…but, to me, there is no single correct varietal expression for any grape. There is great chardonnay, for instance, from France, Australia, the US, Argentina, etc. but each may exhibit quite unique characteristics. The chardonnay we had, this day, was from Michel Gahier and while a great expression of Chardonnay, was radically different than chardonnay i’ve had from most places outside of the Jura. I couldn’t fathom saying, “this is a delicious bottle of chardonnay, but isn’t directionally correct for the varietal” - to me, the varietal differences are one way that make viticulture and winemaking so interesting.
It comes down to the terroir.
Kevin,
I’ve heard you complain about a (particular) critic saying that “stop the madness…with the madness being a situation where we have a critic that likes only the aberrant versions of a producer’s wines and in fact the versions that don’t even resemble the varietal.” Is that really, then a legit criticism of the critic, then, given what you’ve just posted about terroir and typicity?
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Adam,
That is a bit of an orthogonal topic but I do think it is a legitimate critique of a critic. Meaning that if a critic prefers Pinot Noir when it tastes and smells like Zinfandel (to a blind group of 8 tasters), I question the validity or usefulness of the critic’s opinion.
I think Tom’s question is a bit different unless I don’t fully understand your point.
Yup, Matt…that was exactly the wine that prompted my query. It was one of the very few Jura Chards that I’ve tasted…maybe the first. As I tasted it and
retasted it, I kept searching for any recognizable (to me) Chard varietal character and I wasn’t sure that I could find any. It certainly didn’t remind me of
any other Chard I could recall…though it did of a few AltoAdige whites. So maybe that’s what Chard varietal character from the Jura is?? Beats heck out of me.
I’m clueless, as usual.
Tom
Kevin,
I get it in a nebulous sort of way…but isn’t the logical extension of the thought that La Tache would still be great if planted to Nebbiolo? Do you think that is true?
Likewise, there have been periods of time when La Tache hasn’t produced great wines. Is that largely due to farming and/or winemaking? If so, could other sites be just as great if the farming/winemaking were better?
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Not Kevin, but I’d venture to say yes. More generally, I’d say that a) the grape variety one substitutes would need to have a similar ability to express the terroir and b) would need to do well in that site in terms of ripening, etc. In other words grapes varieties aren’t freely interchangeable. Nebbiolo might well do fine in La Tache… Cabernet likely would not.
Likewise, there have been periods of time when La Tache hasn’t produced great wines. Is that largely due to farming and/or winemaking?
This brings up the excellent real world points that wine is more than soil + grape. Farming and winemaking affect things too and, of course, some years simply aren’t going to give one the raw material for good wine.
If so, could other sites be just as great if the farming/winemaking were better?
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
No. That would assume that the influence of great sites is negligible and that a wine is mostly variety + farming + winemaking.
I think that there are four components, with variety being the least important (given the considerations I listed above) and terroir, winemaking and farming being roughly equal.
Rick,
On the last points, there are some sites that are exceptionally good…but not quite at the La Tache level…even those sites might not get there with better farming/winemaking? I am not thinking of taking a poor quality place and moving it up to top level…but someplace close and moving it up. I can think of examples of that happening, where a site has improved dramatically with new ownership, etc.
Or are there sites like La Tache which are seemingly untouchable/unreachable?
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Put me in the terroir camp, but I think the most interesting wines are unusual expressions of varietal caused by unique terroir.
I have to go with terroir. What is varietal typicity for Chardonnay? Chablis? Meursault? Russian River?
One of the more fascinating wines for this discussion was a Cotat Sancere rose (from Pinot Noir) that I once had that tasted like Sancere (maybe a bit more full-bodied) more than like Pinot Noir.
What does any of this have to do with the question posed?
This x 1000. Well put Howard!
Bingo, Andrew…that’s sorta my feeling as well. The wines I like the most, are the most interesting, have some degree of varietal
typicity…yet still carry their imprint of the terroir.
Tom
Howard,
Sorry, maybe I’ve gone astray. Kevin asked if La Tache was about Pinot Noir. I assume his answer is “no.” But, for other vineyards, it is about Pinot Noir more than site. So the question I was wonderinng is could those vineyards reach the level of La Tache (or at least become less than just about the grape) if the farming and/or winemaking were better.
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines