There is a lot of discussion on this board about whole cluster and stem inclusion, usually in terms of pinot noir and to a smaller extent syrah.
My question: in what other types of wines and/or regions is whole cluster or stem inclusion used?
Some related questions: How common is it? What are some of the issues the winemaker faces in making the decision about inclusion? What are some notable examples out there (outside of pinot and syrah) that might serve as a bit of a reference point to the consumer?
The southern Rhône and Piedmont, and Beaujolais (for carbonic). It’s traditional, but I don’t think it’s terribly common anymore. How about Burlotto and Rayas for reference points?
South Rhone has got a lot of producers using whole cluster fermentation. And It seems there are those that are converting to it after years of de-stemming their grapes - St Prefert comes to mind.
It’s a very interesting topic. I wish I could have attended IPOB where Jamie Kutch presented two of his Pinots, one of which was whole cluster and the other of which was de-stemmed. Probably a fascinating comparison tasting that would help with understanding this.
Great question. I do whole cluster/stem inclusion on both my Pinot Noir and my Grenache, whereas I do not on my Syrah. For me its all about the flavor that I am trying to achieve. Both sites that I source my Pinot Noir and Grenache from tend to produce fruit, that has brighter fruit flavors. While desirable, I also want to impart some earthy/green/olive notes to the wine so I decided to do whole cluster. My first year I destemmed everthing and then added about 30% of the stems back in. The 2nd year and last year, I got comfortable with the concept and decided to do about 40% whole cluster. So, in short I would say winemakers will decide based upon the flavor profile they want from a wine. My Syrah vineyard gives me the flavors I want so I don’t do it. I know other winemakers will decide based upon how lignified the stems are. (Meaning are the more green or woody) Hope that helps and would love to hear what others are doing.
This is a fascinating subject to me as well, as a winemaker who loves to explore whole cluster inclusion in my wines. I had a chance to listen to some of Jamie’s comments during the seminar via the live feed they offered for the SF event, and it was interesting to hear him, Jim Clendenon and Ehren Jordan all discuss the subject matter. A few things that were discussed that should probably be discussed here:
Jamie admitted that many times the stems he uses are neon green, not the brown lignified type that ‘conventional wisdom’ says you have to use.
The chemistry of the wine changes when you keep stems in during fermentation, but there is no one who can explain exactly how. Jamie mentioned rose petal and ‘spicy’ aromas that are more prevalent with his whole cluster ferments - I have not seen this on a consistent basis (and I did work with pinot when at Fess Parker, by the way).
The kinetics of fermenting with stems is different than without. JIm Clendenon pointed out all kinds of ‘air pockets’ that exist that allow more oxygen to be held within the ferment - not sure what this does to the ferments or the subsequent must be he felt it was significant . . .
There’s always been the thought that whole cluster inclusion leads to color loss in wine, but I personally have not seen this play out, and it was discussed as well. Tannins from the stems can help ‘fix’ color by binding to anthocyanins, and therefore you may actually retain better color over time. This may be offset by a potential loss in color due to a pH shift if the pH rises in the must, which some believe happens.
As you can see, there is a lot more ‘there’ than can be encapsulated easily. And not only that, unless you run multiple ‘controlled’ ferments using stems and no stems, there really is no definitive way to determine what stems ultimately do to finished wines . . . and don’t forget that new oak may help squash these differences as well (=:
Some recent research Steve Price from ETS has shown an increase in pyrazine in whole cluster ferments in Pinot noir. Usually Pinot does not have pyrazine but Bordeaux varieties do have high amounts of pyrazines. So maybe if you do whole cluster on Bordeaux varieties the pyrazines become way too high and the green flavors dominate the wine.
Do you have copies of that research, Dan? Would be interesting to see. And it would be interesting to see how the research was done and over how many lots . . .
We love whole cluster ferments. Grenache and Syrah. Anywhere from 33% to 100% (Upland Grenache, our homage to Charvin!). We also use 100% on Les Collines Block 50 Syrah. In the running for wine of the year at Sleight of Hand.
The IPOB seminars, including the stem inclusion discussion, are available on their website http://inpursuitofbalance.com/#
I tried to drop in online when the stem part was happening live, but the feed was bad and there were commercial interruptions. I hope the archived version is more watchable.
I think you’ll find it interesting. The challenge is that it is far from ‘scientific’ at this point. I will look at what Jamie Goode has to say in Robert’s link above - but there really has not been a lot of technical research on it . . .
For me, it’s all a matter of building complexity in the finished wine without having any one thing stick out too much.
I’ve enjoyed some granaches at a tasting recently from a couple of Spanish producers that do stem inclusion; Jimenez-Landi and Bernabeleva. The buyer mentioned that at least one of them is owned and run by Burgundy drinkers and are influenced by that style of wine-making.
Larry,
I do not have the paper and I am going on my rock solid memory If you contact ETS I’m sure Steve would talk to you about it and try to sell you his IBMP analyses service!
It’s such an interesting topic. A way of adding complexity and freshness to wines from warmer climates, too. Jamsheed in Australia is a great example of this.
Thanks Jamie . . . and I could not agree more. When done within reason, it really does add layers to wines that might not have them otherwise. I also do a lot of stem inclusion in my grenaches, for I bottle them as 100% grenache - I want to add more ‘structure’ to the wines that others may choose to do by either blending in syrah or perhaps putting the wine in new oak - both of which I don’t want to or feel I have to do . . .
So, traditionally, stems are included when they have a chance to get brown and ripe, and not included when they are bright green (though Larry indicated that Jamie from Kutch has been experimenting with using the green ones as well).
If that’s true – and someone correct me if it is not – would that suggest that stem inclusion would be more common and more appropriate in sites where you can pick very late (e.g. Anderson Valley,Santa Cruz Mountains), so that the stems have had longer to mature by the time you harvest?
As I said above, ‘conventional wisdom’ has been that you only use stems that are brown and lignified to avoid overt green aspects getting into your wine. The reality, as Jamie states, as Pax Mahle states, and as I’ve seen myself, is that it’s okay to use bright green stems ‘within reason’ to add complexity without getting overt green notes. It takes somewhat of a deft hand to show restraint . . .just as with everything else in winemaking, IMHO.
I wonder if bright green stems interact with new oak to produce the cola favors found so often in California Pinot.
I had the chance to taste at Donelan winery a few years back and they had one barrel with stems and one without. In barrel, it was pretty easy to see that the stems added spice and another layer of dimension to the fruit.
However, a few years later, when the wine was released, it had turned into a cherry cola Pinot.
I have no idea whether the stems used were green or lignified brown.
I just know that the cherry cola flavor profile seems really common in California Pinot and I would love to find an explanation.
If you contact ETS I’m sure Steve would talk to you about it and try to sell you his IBMP analyses service!