Representative burgundy question

There have been a few threads that have recently referred to hierarchy not following quality in burgundy. Can folks list examples of where the village wine is clearly better than the 1er and the 1er is clearly better than the GC? They must be same producer, and same village/commune (I.e. don’t list a vosne village and compare it to a beaune 1er)…

Thanks!

Rousseau CSJaques is better in qaulity than his Charmes-Chembertin ; it was priced higher.

Cros Parantoux, 1er (Meo, Rouget) over many of its GC neighbors.
Priced accordingly

The obvious examples seem to priced according to perceived quality. Are there any in which a pricing discrepancy exists? What I am trying to get it is whether there are any examples that the “market” does not know about (or in which there is not sufficient unanimity to move pricing)…

I can’t think of any cases where producers charge more for a village wine than for a 1er from the same village. Then again, why would they?

Several grand crus (Corton, Ech, CV) are priced lower than their GC peers, and below the top premiers, I suspect partially for quality reasons, and partially due to their greater availability.

Given public opinion on Clos Vougeot, I’ve always been interested that the Mugneret sisters always show CV last, after their Ruchottes. Neither Gilman nor Meadows have disagreed since 2005.

You know what they say about a free lunch…

Short answer: no, not terroir related anyway. I think there are comparatively undervalued and overvalued producers, however.

A terroir exception - There are some lieu-dit village wines that can contend with the premier crus on quality, but always for less money. I suspect that most producers who bottle separate wines, do so because they believe in their quality. But these are generally still priced as village wines, without the prestige of premier cru.

I am sure we all have our own favorite wines that we target each year because they are worth it to us. Perhaps that’s a market inefficiency of a personal sort.

The Bachelet Gevrey VV is just possibly a more interesting wine than the Corbeaux 1er cru.

Interesting question/thoughts…

I finally agree with Peter… the CSJ is always better than the Charmes Chambertin chez Rousseau. I cannot say that about the CSJ vs. the other grand crus…as I think Charles Rousseau overvalued the CSJ vis a vis the Mazy and Ruchottes…and recentlly the CdlR…for sentimental reasons.

RE: Rouget…although the Cros P is priced highest (by a decent margin), to accomodate the trophy hunters’ resources…I’ve long thought that the Echezaux was every bit its equal…and liked it better on those occasions I had them side by side there…FWIW

And…re: the Mugneret sisters: It is important to remember that their whole mission is a hommage to their father, Dr. Georges, and his legacy. He chose that order (and was around in 1988 when I first visited and tasted in that order). So, they would be very unlikely to tinker with anything. And, the Ruchottes holdings was a relatively recent acquisition (bought at the same time Rousseau and Roumier/Bonnefond took their portions). Finally, I ‘m pretty sure that I read that a CV parcel came from Dr. Georges’ mother’s side (Gibourg) and that they had to sell that portion at one point for economic reasons and that Dr. Georges, a practicing opthalmologist, happily bought another parcel when he started making his own wines to compensate. So, clearly, he treasured the CV holdings. I’m not sure, but think it is probably their top wine, though it takes forever to mature…unlike the Ruchottes. (Added: I just did an internet search and this link to Clive Coates’ book tells the story of the estate and of the CV: Côte D'Or: A Celebration of the Great Wines of Burgundy - Clive Coates - Google Books

The producers are pretty in touch with the pricing in the retail markets…and, unlike Bize-Leroy, they can’t do the gouging (their distributors do), so some will do their best to do so with one or two of the trophier labels in their stables…not matter the level. Cros P. is an example…and none of the Rousseau wines are examples of that premium…it is all post-release trade.

Totally agree.

I have seen Bertheau Amoureuses priced over Bonnes Mares. Arnoux’s Suchots is more expensive than their C. Vougeot or Echezeaux. Meo’s Cros P is more expensive than their C. Vougeot.

For me, Patrice Rion’s Bourgogne Les Bons Batons is better than his Cote de Nuits Village. And it is NOT reflected in the pricing.

Would it be fair to state that quality generally follows hierarchy within villages and by produce?

Patrice Rion’s Bons Batons is one of the best values, and , in my experience, as good as Bourgogne appellation can get. I know of no better. Have it in many vintages. But, in fairness, not only is Patrice Rion , IMO, one of Burgundy’s truly great winemakers. The Bons Batons vineyard, in Gilly, is one of the very best (if not the best) vineyard classified as “bourgogne” in the region. The combo leads to near-perfection, vintage after vintage. The '99 is starting to be superb…as is the 2002, which needs more time.

Gerard: “generally”…and every producer has their own esoteric twists on their own holdings. But…I don’t really understand your question, I think. The grand crus are usually produers’ best wines…if that answers it…but a great producer’s villages is likely to be better than an average producer’;s 1er cru…and his/her grand crus are likely to be better than an average producer’s grand crus. And. in most cases, they are treated to more new oak according to their “hierarchies”, whether determined by AOC or, in the case of Rousseau, by the producer’s own views of his hierarchy. And, new oak makes a wine seem like higher “quality” especially when the wine is young.

What I am getting at… Some folks have critiqued meadows. They claim that he rigidly follows the hierarchy in awarding points to an estate. In other words, village 88, 1er 91, GC 93. The claim has been made that this makes him unreliable. My experience has been that, for the most part- when consumed at maturity, from any given producer, and from the same village- the 1er is slightly to significantly better and the GC is slight to significantly better than the 1er. Not always- but the vast majority of the time. Yes some producers produce 1ers that are on par with other producers GCs, but that is producer to producer and not within the same family.

Ok…as a vast generality, you’re probably accurate. But…tasting the same lineups blind, I think you’d have a different result.

What makes Meadows unreliable , IMO, is his participation in the Rudy scandal as voucher for Rudy…and his failure to reveal that he was being paid for his services by the auction house that was auctioning those wines…and that he has never really admitted what he did. So…to me…his cred is done.

Most critics fall into that hospitality…they rate the wines acc. to the way their hosts present them to them in barrel.

And…most scoring systems (which I abhor…numbers/grades) don’t really explain whether a great villages gets a higher score than a terrible 1er…or whether points are awarded vis a vis those wines within a stable.

All this is to say…that other than generalized comments about vintages, wines, etc…I don’t think any of the “critics” provides anything really meaningful. I’d rather go to Burgundy (or Alsace) myself…and taste a very limited universe of wines and rely on my own thoughts than pay the money to any of the critics, whose impressions are just that…and whose limitations are clear from both the Rudy debacle and from the 2004 “green” problem (which almost none of them even called or tasted)…and their relative inaction in calling the producers to task for the premox ripoff (which they can’t do, as they depend on the winemakers to give them free tastes of their lineups…as all visitors can get.)

Aside from the above, Meadows did seem to award points on the simplistic basis that you describe…the higher up the hierarchy, the higher the point score. Maybe he explains his method somewherer. I’ve never seen it, though.

Ok- what village wines out perform the same producers 1er (from the same village)?

If you can pull a few names - if love to try them. I’m not trying to be argumentative. I just happen to believe that in burgundy - more than anywhere else- the classification actually tends to mean something. In other words, if you are drinking a 1er from Gevry, then you can rest assured that it will, most likely, be more complex and have greater concentration than the village wine from the same producer.

Yes, the classification in Burgundy really means something. There are stories behind why La Grande Rue was only classified as Grand Cru in 1992, why there is no GC in Meursault, etc… in almost all cases, the classification is correct.

In general, and that is for 95+% of the producers/wines, the 1er Cru will be above the villages and the GC above the 1er. There are exceptions as already listed above. The main factor in Burgundy is the producer. That’s a secret for nobody. Mugneret-Gibourg’s Bourgogne is better than quite a few villages wines from Vosne and around. It’s not better than their Vosne, though. As a matter of fact, I find Mugneret-Gibourg’s CV above their other wines, though the Ruchottes comes close. But the CV is almost always better, at least for the 10 last vintages that I have tried on barrel at the domaine.

About critics, as Stuart mentioned, the best thing you can possibly do is to go to Burgundy and try the wines there.
As for critics reliability, well… I don’t subscribe to any newsletter/critic. I trust my own palate and the ones from a few friends/acquaintances. Because people do buy critic’s notes as being exactly what they will have in the glass when in reality, it’s just one guy’s impression about a wine tasted on barrel (in most cases). Because everybody wants to buy the wines as soon as possible. Ask importers/retailers for reservations while the wine is not even in bottle. I’m sure people would buy wine from a vintage based on points given to how well the grapes are looking in July!.. So sometimes, problems like “2004” happen. But I want to give them a break for the 2004’s reds. I have tasted them on barrel at many domains. And nowhere, I mean nowhere, was there a vegetal/green aspect to the wines that could indicate that they would turn out that green once in the bottle…

Stuart said :

I finally agree with Peter… the CSJ is always better than the Charmes Chambertin chez Rousseau. I cannot say that about the CSJ vs. the other grand crus…as I think Charles Rousseau overvalued the CSJ vis a vis the Mazy and Ruchottes…and recentlly the CdlR…for sentimental reasons.

Thanks for agreement.

Please note some examples mentioned in this thread does not meet the defination set up in Post No. 1. For examples - Cros.P. is not the same village as C. Vougeot and CSJacques is not the same village as CdlR.



Defination : …Can folks list examples of where the village wine is clearly better than the 1er and the 1er is clearly better than the GC? They must be same producer, and same village/commune (I.e. don’t list a vosne village and compare it to a beaune 1er)…

Agree in general term of your comment ( see below ). That being said,Burgundy is a land of exceptions; and within these exceptions there are more exceptions. For example : CdCorton by Faiveley in AC Corton as well as Long-Depaquit’s La Moutonne within the AC - Chablish G-Cru. But that is a completely difference subject…

In other words, if you are drinking a 1er from Gevry, then you can rest assured that it will, most likely, be more complex and have greater concentration than the village wine from the same producer.[/