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Robert Kenney
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#1 Post by Robert Kenney » January 6th, 2014, 3:35 pm

I recall hearing the following tongue-in-cheek remark:
"I'll start putting stems in my juice when people start putting tomato stems in their Marinara sauce."

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#2 Post by Roberto Rogness » January 6th, 2014, 3:39 pm

I would think that the basil, oregano and bay leaves serve the same function in the marinara but are more efficient, no?
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#3 Post by Dave Butner » January 6th, 2014, 4:12 pm

I'm doing more and more whole cluster fermentations with Syrah - up to about 40% in 2013 and I really like the results, as I find I get more earthy and spice components - both of which I like in Syrah.

Putting tomato stems in marina? I haven't tried it, but sounds interesting.

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#4 Post by Chris Seiber » January 6th, 2014, 4:30 pm

Forgive my ignorance, but when people use the expression "whole cluster," they obviously mean including the whole cluster (stems, seeds, skins and juice), but does that mean or imply that the grapes are not crushed before fermentation? I probably know the answer, but I've confused myself here momentarily.

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#5 Post by john holdredge » January 6th, 2014, 4:39 pm

Remember the scene at the end of "A Beautiful mind"? Where he's getting the Nobel Prize? He says something like "I've gone to the physical, the metaphysical and beyond and back" Something like that- basically saying he went to a dark place and came back.

Whole cluster has been like that for me. I never did it. then I did a little. Then I did more. I finally did way to f-ing much in one wine. So I'm back from that very dark place. Now it's just a taste which I generally refuse to indulge.

But it serves its place. You get a big pH shift (or I always have), so that is a good tool for a low pH wine. Some folks swear by the tannin polymerization etc. I just found I don't like the aromas or flavors as much. To each their own.
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#6 Post by Ian Brand » January 6th, 2014, 4:51 pm

It has to be the right variety in the right vineyard, but percentages from 10-90 (I don't go 100% because I have seen the air gaps around the stems at the top of the fermentation provide a home for all kinds of nasty bacteria) can do wonders for a wine, whether by adding complexity and structure, taking the edge off the pH, providing some really nice savory components, etc. I've heard that sort of dogmatic anti-stem from a few winemakers, and to the one they are from the ripe fruit, enzyme and oak crowd. A style that has its place, for sure, just not my cup of tea.
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#7 Post by Bruce G » January 6th, 2014, 4:58 pm

Ian Brand wrote:I've heard that sort of dogmatic anti-stem from a few winemakers, and to the one they are from the ripe fruit, enzyme and oak crowd.
It's a pretty controversial technique amongst naturalistas as well.
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#8 Post by Taylor Broussard » January 6th, 2014, 4:59 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but when people use the expression "whole cluster," they obviously mean including the whole cluster (stems, seeds, skins and juice), but does that mean or imply that the grapes are not crushed before fermentation? I probably know the answer, but I've confused myself here momentarily.
I suppose there's multiple ways to do this. I've heard of winemakers literally throwing the stems in if they felt like the flavor would add an interesting component (after de-stem/crush) but I've more commonly heard of winemakers letting the weight of the berries crush themselves and then fermentation finishing up the rest. (just sorting, no de-stem/crush).

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#9 Post by Michael Lewis » January 6th, 2014, 5:04 pm

Paging Zyl3rb3rg and/or Richard Jennings.

Also, pretty soon it is not going to make any sense to say you are "paging" anyone. In fact, it probably should be dropped from my vocabulary now.
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#10 Post by larry schaffer » January 6th, 2014, 5:33 pm

Interesting topic, and one that I have some experience with.

As others have pointed out, stem inclusion is not for everyone, and is not 'best' in certain situations. That said, I've found that feel its positives outweigh its negatives when it comes to certain varieties - grenache, syrah, and even mourvedre.

Ian point about potential issues when using 100% whole cluster, but it's not just the percentage used, but if and how the grapes are crushed that determines the outcome as well. What do I mean? Well, there seems to be a stronger movement toward doing 'partial carbonic' ferments, where the stems are included, and the grapes are left 'partially uncrushed' during the fermentation process. This means that the grapes will ferment inside the skins, creating a wine that is very fruit forward, possibly slightly spritzy, but without a lot of structure (or color sometimes).

When I use whole clusters in my ferment, I get in and foot stomp the grapes once a day during cold soak to ensure that the berries are crushed. It may take up to 4 days of 'foot stomping' once a day for 10-20 minutes until this is achieved.

In 2009, I decided to do a lot more whole cluster inclusion than before. I broke lots into two ferment - one 100% whole cluster and the other none. I fermented the wines separately, pressed them separately, and aged them separately. Over time, I really dug the whole cluster wines, though they needed time for the added tannins/bitter compounds that the stems add to integrate.

Jump ahead to this year, and I was digging the fruit that I brought in - and the potential for stem inclusion once again. I therefore went 100% on all of my grenache lots, on most of my syrah lots, and on one of my mourvedre lots. I will be monitoring these all the way through the process, and will be barrel aging each of these lots for at least 24 months. If I was aging shorter, I probably would not have used such as high a percentage.

But YMMV, and I won't imply that what I'm doing is 'right or wrong' for anyone else . . .

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#11 Post by larry schaffer » January 6th, 2014, 5:36 pm

And to answer the original question - nope, I don't agree with the line . . . but I do agree that if the stems are overly 'noticeable', then something is 'out of whack' . . . but that would be true with too much oak as well (-:
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#12 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » January 6th, 2014, 5:36 pm

I'm just going to say that I really like whole cluster wines...and non-whole cluster wines. They can both be good...and bad.
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#13 Post by larry schaffer » January 6th, 2014, 5:50 pm

Exactly, David . . . exactly!!!

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#14 Post by Chris Seiber » January 6th, 2014, 5:56 pm

larry schaffer wrote:When I use whole clusters in my ferment, I get in and foot stomp the grapes once a day during cold soak to ensure that the berries are crushed. It may take up to 4 days of 'foot stomping' once a day for 10-20 minutes until this is achieved.

In 2009, I decided to do a lot more whole cluster inclusion than before. I broke lots into two ferment - one 100% whole cluster and the other none. I fermented the wines separately, pressed them separately, and aged them separately. Over time, I really dug the whole cluster wines, though they needed time for the added tannins/bitter compounds that the stems add to integrate.
Larry, what do you think the difference would be -- chemically, process-wise, or in terms of the final product -- if you had simply crushed and destemmed the grapes in the normal way, and then thrown all the stems back into the fermenter?

Is the gentle and gradual way that you crush significant to the different outcome you get, as compared to the simple fact that the stems are in the fermenter rather than discarded?

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#15 Post by larry schaffer » January 6th, 2014, 6:16 pm

Chris,

That's a great question. I'm not sure what the difference would be chemically - and the only real way to know would be do to multiple ferments with the same fruit using both techniques, and probably a few others as well. I do know that some winemaker do completely destem and then throw back a percentage of stems, with the 'rationale' that they are only looking for stems with certain 'characteristics'.

And I can't answer the second half either. All I know is that I like the results of what I get, and have learned that, with my grapes and my techniques, the 'outcome' justifies the process to me.

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#16 Post by R Roberts » January 6th, 2014, 6:33 pm

john holdredge wrote:You get a big pH shift (or I always have), so that is a good tool for a low pH wine.
What would you consider a low pH wine?

Curious if there's a rule of thumb to include stems at below a certain pH, or if its not that simple.
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#17 Post by R Roberts » January 6th, 2014, 6:40 pm

Ian Brand wrote:I've heard that sort of dogmatic anti-stem from a few winemakers, and to the one they are from the ripe fruit, enzyme and oak crowd. A style that has its place, for sure, just not my cup of tea.
Do you feel enzyme adds produce a different result from cold soaking?

(TIA for all the winemaking lessons. Feeling like a total noob.)
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#18 Post by Jim Anderson » January 6th, 2014, 6:51 pm

Nearly uniformly I prefer the wines we do whole cluster to the de-stemmed wines. That being said the wines that are de-stemmed generally are such either because the stems were not ripe enough in our opinion to be positive additions to the fermentations (this is topic of debate to at least an extent amongst winemakers who do whole cluster fermentations) or the vineyard or block in the vineyard does not carry the sort of flavor profile and/or inherent weight, depth and complexity to necessarily benefit from the inclusion and the extra work associated with it. Therefore those wines are better for their lack of stem inclusion.

We generally do not do more than about 60 percent but have done up to 80 percent. I love the character, depth, tannin structure and, well, pretty much everything about the wines when we really get it right. We've modified fermentation technique over the past few years and I think that has better accommodated the nature of these wines. We have an interesting, well to me anyway, experiment where we left one fermenter of Freedom Hill Vineyard fruit 100 percent de-stemmed but let it hang out with its whole cluster brethren and therefore get the specific type of fermentation technique we use with high whole cluster ferments. Too early and cold to tell much.

In short, big fan both as a producer and consumer.
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#19 Post by Jim Anderson » January 6th, 2014, 6:58 pm

Chris Seiber wrote:
larry schaffer wrote:When I use whole clusters in my ferment, I get in and foot stomp the grapes once a day during cold soak to ensure that the berries are crushed. It may take up to 4 days of 'foot stomping' once a day for 10-20 minutes until this is achieved.

In 2009, I decided to do a lot more whole cluster inclusion than before. I broke lots into two ferment - one 100% whole cluster and the other none. I fermented the wines separately, pressed them separately, and aged them separately. Over time, I really dug the whole cluster wines, though they needed time for the added tannins/bitter compounds that the stems add to integrate.
Larry, what do you think the difference would be -- chemically, process-wise, or in terms of the final product -- if you had simply crushed and destemmed the grapes in the normal way, and then thrown all the stems back into the fermenter?

Is the gentle and gradual way that you crush significant to the different outcome you get, as compared to the simple fact that the stems are in the fermenter rather than discarded?
I would add here that it, to me, not merely the inclusion of stems but that they are whole cluster in nature. The nature of the ferment is clearly different when the berries are on the stems as opposed to putting stems into the fermenter on the back end.
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#20 Post by Todd Hamina » January 6th, 2014, 8:17 pm

If ethereal delicacy is a goal, then whole cluster is an excellent avenue.
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#21 Post by Beau Carufel » January 6th, 2014, 8:39 pm

I've done it for all my reds, PV, Tempranillo, Syrah, Gamay Noir, and Cab Franc. I love the results of doing a little bit in each lot. The PV and Tempranillo saw about 20 percent, the syrah 50, the Gamay around 50 and the Cab Franc was something like 25. This year if I can get the grenache and syrah I have my eye on, I think the percentages will go up.
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#22 Post by Hank Beckmeyer » January 7th, 2014, 6:09 am

100% whole cluster 100% of the time. But it must be gently crushed (foot crushed) and intact clusters. Destemming and adding back the broken stems just gives you green, stemmy flavors and nasty tannins.

For me, it tempers our rather exuberant fruit we get up here, plus adds some great savory textures and interesting aromatics. As a bonus, the ferments never seem to get too hot, and the musts press out very nicely.
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#23 Post by Robert Kenney » January 7th, 2014, 6:28 am

Fascinating to read everyone's impressions/insights, thus far.

Check-out this--albeit expensive--approach, but one that I hadn't heard of until watching Klaus Peter Keller describe how it was treated. It gets started at minute-marker 7:46 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzKwn4GLfug

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#24 Post by Eric Texier » January 7th, 2014, 6:36 am

So, this brilliant winemaker considers wine as a cooked fruit juice. How sharp!

I bet his wines get favorably compared to 1990 La Tache by RP, then.

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#25 Post by TomHill » January 7th, 2014, 6:37 am

larry schaffer wrote:Chris,

That's a great question. I'm not sure what the difference would be chemically - and the only real way to know would be do to multiple ferments with the same fruit using both techniques, and probably a few others as well. I do know that some winemaker do completely destem and then throw back a percentage of stems, with the 'rationale' that they are only looking for stems with certain 'characteristics'.

Cheers
Say whot, Larry??? Now they're not only sorting grapes on the sorting table...but doing the same for the stems as well??? That boggles my tiny mind.
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#26 Post by Adam Lee » January 7th, 2014, 6:54 am

I am aware of a winery that heats (cooks?) the stems to lignify them and then adds them back.

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#27 Post by Destiny Dudley » January 7th, 2014, 9:57 am

Roberto Rogness wrote:I would think that the basil, oregano and bay leaves serve the same function in the marinara but are more efficient, no?
This is the greatest thing I've read in weeks!! Thank you.

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#28 Post by Destiny Dudley » January 7th, 2014, 10:27 am

One thing I really hope we can all do as an industry, is help define the difference between "whole cluster" vs simple "stem inclusion", as they are not the same thing. The significance of "whole cluster" to us, is the added element of intercellular fermentation that is occurring from the whole berries remaining intact with the rachis, as well as, encasing the seeds- where the uber bitter tannins live. This is where the aromatics we all love in whole cluster ferments come from not to mention the beautiful fruit/floral characters. Why don't we ever focus on/discuss that.. why does it always have to be argument about stems?

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#29 Post by Greg Harrington » January 7th, 2014, 10:30 am

We routinely use whole cluster in our Rhone ferments. Each year we seem to use more. All of our Syrah gets between 30-100% whole cluster. We are still experimenting with Grenache whole cluster, and seem to like it in the 30-50% range. We are undecided on Mourvedre whole cluster. Like Larry said above, we foot stomp, as we don't want the carbonic fruit profile. We feel that the stems give a depth and earthiness to the wine that is extremely interesting. We never add stems back after going through the crusher/destemmer. That's a recipe to make canned asparagus. Additionally, when you use stems, you have to be ok with the wines being tight upon release, as they will take 2-3 years to open.

One think I hear a lot about is "ripe stems." We disagree that ripe stems = lignified stems. We feel that the only way to tell the percentage of stems is to taste the stems at crushing. They will have certain characteristics that we have recognized over the years. We have some vineyards that we routinely ferment 100% that have neon green stems and I wish I could do a "200% stem ferment." We have other vineyards that have brown stems which if we go about 50%, the wine is canned asparagus. We have looked at various chemical components for a correlation i.e. pH, TA etc,heat accumulation, but have found its just trial and error as well as knowing your vineyards/blocks. It is also interesting to note that many, particularly in the N Rhone, Alain Graillot for example, ferment on green stems and achieve remarkable results. One random thing about stems is how they show black pepper with Syrah and white pepper with Grenache. I used to say that if a fermentation didn't scare the heck out of me during fermentation (excessive greenness) we didn't use enough stems. Now we know that the wine will be green for 6 monte or so, then integrate, similar to oak integration.

As our harvest t shirts say "Stems Rule!"

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#30 Post by Richard Malloy » January 7th, 2014, 10:33 am

Hank Beckmeyer wrote:100% whole cluster 100% of the time. But it must be gently crushed (foot crushed) and intact clusters. Destemming and adding back the broken stems just gives you green, stemmy flavors and nasty tannins.

For me, it tempers our rather exuberant fruit we get up here, plus adds some great savory textures and interesting aromatics. As a bonus, the ferments never seem to get too hot, and the musts press out very nicely.
Hank, I'm not sure how wide-spread the practice is (foot crushing whole clusters), but I wonder if you're familiar with the Barolo producer GB Burlotto? His Monvigliero wine is famous for being made in that process, and is perhaps the only Piedmont wine that is.

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#31 Post by Taylor Broussard » January 7th, 2014, 11:22 am

Is a whole cluster fermentation really that similar to carbonic maceration? My understanding of carbonic maceration is that it's made in a limited oxygen environment throughout fermentation. Whole cluster fermentation may start with limited oxygen, but these eventually get punched down or pumped over, right?

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#32 Post by Vincent Fritzsche » January 7th, 2014, 11:31 am

I do some whole cluster fermentation. Not a lot. I always think I should do more but then don't. Probably will experiment more in the future. The idea that stems would be bad is absurd. They can be overdone but I wonder if people just work their wines too much in fermentation and chalk it up to the stems being too green or astringent when a lighter touch might have been better.
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#33 Post by Ian Brand » January 7th, 2014, 11:34 am

Rama Roberts wrote:
Ian Brand wrote:I've heard that sort of dogmatic anti-stem from a few winemakers, and to the one they are from the ripe fruit, enzyme and oak crowd. A style that has its place, for sure, just not my cup of tea.
Do you feel enzyme adds produce a different result from cold soaking?

(TIA for all the winemaking lessons. Feeling like a total noob.)
Yes. Absolutely. I'm sort of fuzzy at chemistry, perhaps Larry or somebody edumacated can weigh in, but cold soaking brings in some of the more delicate fruit elements and aromatics that get missed if you go right into a hot ferment whereas pectic enzymes break down the skins and cause those compounds to dominate, mainly pushing fruit and tannin to the forefront at the expense of some of the 'terroir'. Combine that with fruit on the far side of ripeness and some loamy soils and you get the 'California' recipe.
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#34 Post by Ian Brand » January 7th, 2014, 11:36 am

Destiny Dudley wrote:One thing I really hope we can all do as an industry, is help define the difference between "whole cluster" vs simple "stem inclusion", as they are not the same thing. The significance of "whole cluster" to us, is the added element of intercellular fermentation that is occurring from the whole berries remaining intact with the rachis, as well as, encasing the seeds- where the uber bitter tannins live. This is where the aromatics we all love in whole cluster ferments come from not to mention the beautiful fruit/floral characters. Why don't we ever focus on/discuss that.. why does it always have to be argument about stems?
Great point. Also, the ferments tend to be cooler and longer, caps larger, totally different beast to work with than the crushed and destemmed. There is an assumption that more stem = more tannin, but that isn't always the case. Used in the proper proportion for the wine, they really do bring another layer of beauty. Takes the wine to Level 6.
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#35 Post by Thomas Keim » January 7th, 2014, 1:44 pm

Great, great read guys - thank you -

A question; At what point of the stems being trimmed does the process turn into whole berry fermentation compared to whole cluster fermentation?
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#36 Post by Stu Fishler » January 7th, 2014, 1:46 pm

Ian Brand wrote:
Destiny Dudley wrote: Takes the wine to Level 11.

FIFY, Ian. [cheers.gif]
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#37 Post by Greg Harrington » January 7th, 2014, 1:53 pm

Thomas Keim wrote:Great, great read guys - thank you -

A question; At what point of the stems being trimmed does the process turn into whole berry fermentation compared to whole cluster fermentation?
The winemaker will either keep the cluster fully intact or run the cluster through the crusher/destemmer, which removes the entire rakus (stem.) So if a fermentation is wine is 50% whole cluster, there are 2 ways to get there. Do one tank with 100% whole cluster and another tank 100% destemmed. Then the wines are blended. Or, you can fill 1/2 the tank with whole clusters, foot stomp, and then crush destemmed fruit on top of that. (Or vice versa, but we prefer the whole clusters on the bottom of the tank.)

Also there is a difference between whole berry and whole cluster. Whole berry means that the individual berries themselves are not crushed. It leads to a more fruit forward wine and sometimes carbonic maceration. Crushing the berries, by foot stomping or other means, tend to give a more earthy wine. Also, with whole berry, the wine tends to go into the barrel "wet" i.e. not fully fermented. You will see the brix level increase during pressing as the unfermented berries are pressed. Finishing the fermentation in barrel can help oak integration if using new oak.

So the thinking goes like this:

1. Will we use whole cluster with this fruit?
2. Will we ferment it 100% whole cluster and then blend with destemmed fruit or do a mix in the tank during fermentation?
3. How fully do we want to crush all the berries? Whole berry, light crush, fully crushed?

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#38 Post by Paul Miller » January 7th, 2014, 3:12 pm

No donkey balls in this thread. Been very helpful.

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#39 Post by mike pobega » January 7th, 2014, 3:12 pm

Great thread. Great info. Thanks all.

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Ken Zinns
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#40 Post by Ken Zinns » January 7th, 2014, 4:05 pm

Hank Beckmeyer wrote:100% whole cluster 100% of the time. But it must be gently crushed (foot crushed) and intact clusters. Destemming and adding back the broken stems just gives you green, stemmy flavors and nasty tannins.

For me, it tempers our rather exuberant fruit we get up here, plus adds some great savory textures and interesting aromatics. As a bonus, the ferments never seem to get too hot, and the musts press out very nicely.
Footstomped some whole-cluster Grenache and Syrah with Steve Edmunds last fall - been awhile since I'd done that. Took some time to get used to that cold fruit in the bins, but the stems were easier on my ankles than the last time I'd footstomped whole clusters. Hope the wine doesn't have any "interesting aromatics" from my feet! [wink.gif]
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#41 Post by Dan Rinke » January 7th, 2014, 4:35 pm

Footstomped some whole-cluster Grenache and Syrah with Steve Edmunds last fall - been awhile since I'd done that. Took some time to get used to that cold fruit in the bins, but the stems were easier on my ankles than the last time I'd footstomped whole clusters. Hope the wine doesn't have any "interesting aromatics" from my feet! [wink.gif][/quote]

Is that where native yeasts come from? [snort.gif]
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#42 Post by Keith Levenberg » January 7th, 2014, 6:51 pm

I've never heard of anyone eating oak staves either, but people don't mind that in their wine.

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#43 Post by H Wallace Jr » January 7th, 2014, 8:14 pm

We are 100% whole cluster on all of our reds (7 Mourvèdre and 1 Petite Sirah).

With 100% whole cluster, I feel like babysit the press a little more than I would if we gettin' all fancy and destemmed-- But that could just be a combo of being neurotic and thinking it is a good time / place to sneak a beer(s).

We usually have a high % of whole berry fermentation (minimal to low treading), but it varies by lot and by vintage based on the qualities of the fruit. I think the % of whole berry greatly affects the sensation of whole-clustery-ness vs potential stemmy-ness

Back to the OP- I'd be leery of people that compare wine with spaghetti sauce. That guy sounds reckless!
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#44 Post by Roberto Rogness » January 7th, 2014, 8:16 pm

Hardy, you make seven DIFFERENT Mourvèdre bottlings?
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#45 Post by H Wallace Jr » January 7th, 2014, 8:28 pm

Roberto Rogness wrote:Hardy, you make seven DIFFERENT Mourvèdre bottlings?
Yessir. Crazy train. In 2013 we made 6 single vineyard and 1 "Especial"
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#46 Post by gene keenan » January 7th, 2014, 10:35 pm

Dave Butner wrote:I'm doing more and more whole cluster fermentations with Syrah - up to about 40% in 2013 and I really like the results, as I find I get more earthy and spice components - both of which I like in Syrah.

Putting tomato stems in marina? I haven't tried it, but sounds interesting.
The tomato is part of the deadly nightshade family and have always believed the stems and leaves to be deadly poisonous. Turns out I and many others were wrong including Rodale:
http://www.rodalenews.com/research-feed ... hese-years
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#47 Post by Chris Seiber » January 7th, 2014, 11:07 pm

An offshoot question to this excellent discussion: I seem to mostly hear of stem inclusion in pinots and Rhones. Does anyone do stem inclusion in Bordeaux varietals? Or the major Italian red varietals (Sangiovese and Nebbiolo)? How about zinfandel? Tempranillo?

If the answer to all or some of those is no, what is the quick answer for why not? Is it that those (other than zin I guess) are already more tannic varieties than pinot and Rhones?

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#48 Post by Peter Chiu » January 8th, 2014, 5:32 am

Michael Lewis wrote:Paging Zyl3rb3rg and/or Richard Jennings.

Also, pretty soon it is not going to make any sense to say you are "paging" anyone. In fact, it probably should be dropped from my vocabulary now.

Very interesting discussions - thanks.

Paging Richard Jennings + 1.

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#49 Post by Hank Beckmeyer » January 8th, 2014, 5:55 am

Chris Seiber wrote:An offshoot question to this excellent discussion: I seem to mostly hear of stem inclusion in pinots and Rhones. Does anyone do stem inclusion in Bordeaux varietals? Or the major Italian red varietals (Sangiovese and Nebbiolo)? How about zinfandel? Tempranillo?

If the answer to all or some of those is no, what is the quick answer for why not? Is it that those (other than zin I guess) are already more tannic varieties than pinot and Rhones?
Chris, my Home Vineyard bottling has tempranillo and tannat in it, along with grenache and syrah, and 100% stem inclusion (whole cluster). Works great.

And I do a bottling with about 50% nebbiolo too, also 100% whole cluster.

I'd love to find some interesting Cab Franc to try whole cluster. That might be testing the limits!
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#50 Post by larry schaffer » January 8th, 2014, 7:25 am

H Wallace Jr wrote:We are 100% whole cluster on all of our reds (7 Mourvèdre and 1 Petite Sirah).

With 100% whole cluster, I feel like babysit the press a little more than I would if we gettin' all fancy and destemmed-- But that could just be a combo of being neurotic and thinking it is a good time / place to sneak a beer(s).

We usually have a high % of whole berry fermentation (minimal to low treading), but it varies by lot and by vintage based on the qualities of the fruit. I think the % of whole berry greatly affects the sensation of whole-clustery-ness vs potential stemmy-ness

Back to the OP- I'd be leery of people that compare wine with spaghetti sauce. That guy sounds reckless!
Only 4 Mourvedre vineyards for me this year . . . I'm slacking!!!!

Gotta believe that the fact you don't do much foot treading leads to a more 'carbonic' type end product, right? I know you don't keep your wines in 'storage' (oak, concrete, whatever you 'new kids' are using these days [snort.gif] ) so this would make the wine more 'accessible' younger, right?

I tread the heck out of mine, but I'm after a different 'end result' me thinks . . .

Cheers!
larry schaffer
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