Whole cluster__Winemakers what do you think about this line?

I recall hearing the following tongue-in-cheek remark:
“I’ll start putting stems in my juice when people start putting tomato stems in their Marinara sauce.”

Best,

Kenney

I would think that the basil, oregano and bay leaves serve the same function in the marinara but are more efficient, no?

I’m doing more and more whole cluster fermentations with Syrah - up to about 40% in 2013 and I really like the results, as I find I get more earthy and spice components - both of which I like in Syrah.

Putting tomato stems in marina? I haven’t tried it, but sounds interesting.

Forgive my ignorance, but when people use the expression “whole cluster,” they obviously mean including the whole cluster (stems, seeds, skins and juice), but does that mean or imply that the grapes are not crushed before fermentation? I probably know the answer, but I’ve confused myself here momentarily.

Remember the scene at the end of “A Beautiful mind”? Where he’s getting the Nobel Prize? He says something like “I’ve gone to the physical, the metaphysical and beyond and back” Something like that- basically saying he went to a dark place and came back.

Whole cluster has been like that for me. I never did it. then I did a little. Then I did more. I finally did way to f-ing much in one wine. So I’m back from that very dark place. Now it’s just a taste which I generally refuse to indulge.

But it serves its place. You get a big pH shift (or I always have), so that is a good tool for a low pH wine. Some folks swear by the tannin polymerization etc. I just found I don’t like the aromas or flavors as much. To each their own.

It has to be the right variety in the right vineyard, but percentages from 10-90 (I don’t go 100% because I have seen the air gaps around the stems at the top of the fermentation provide a home for all kinds of nasty bacteria) can do wonders for a wine, whether by adding complexity and structure, taking the edge off the pH, providing some really nice savory components, etc. I’ve heard that sort of dogmatic anti-stem from a few winemakers, and to the one they are from the ripe fruit, enzyme and oak crowd. A style that has its place, for sure, just not my cup of tea.

It’s a pretty controversial technique amongst naturalistas as well.

I suppose there’s multiple ways to do this. I’ve heard of winemakers literally throwing the stems in if they felt like the flavor would add an interesting component (after de-stem/crush) but I’ve more commonly heard of winemakers letting the weight of the berries crush themselves and then fermentation finishing up the rest. (just sorting, no de-stem/crush).

Paging Zylberberg and/or Richard Jennings.

Also, pretty soon it is not going to make any sense to say you are “paging” anyone. In fact, it probably should be dropped from my vocabulary now.

Interesting topic, and one that I have some experience with.

As others have pointed out, stem inclusion is not for everyone, and is not ‘best’ in certain situations. That said, I’ve found that feel its positives outweigh its negatives when it comes to certain varieties - grenache, syrah, and even mourvedre.

Ian point about potential issues when using 100% whole cluster, but it’s not just the percentage used, but if and how the grapes are crushed that determines the outcome as well. What do I mean? Well, there seems to be a stronger movement toward doing ‘partial carbonic’ ferments, where the stems are included, and the grapes are left ‘partially uncrushed’ during the fermentation process. This means that the grapes will ferment inside the skins, creating a wine that is very fruit forward, possibly slightly spritzy, but without a lot of structure (or color sometimes).

When I use whole clusters in my ferment, I get in and foot stomp the grapes once a day during cold soak to ensure that the berries are crushed. It may take up to 4 days of ‘foot stomping’ once a day for 10-20 minutes until this is achieved.

In 2009, I decided to do a lot more whole cluster inclusion than before. I broke lots into two ferment - one 100% whole cluster and the other none. I fermented the wines separately, pressed them separately, and aged them separately. Over time, I really dug the whole cluster wines, though they needed time for the added tannins/bitter compounds that the stems add to integrate.

Jump ahead to this year, and I was digging the fruit that I brought in - and the potential for stem inclusion once again. I therefore went 100% on all of my grenache lots, on most of my syrah lots, and on one of my mourvedre lots. I will be monitoring these all the way through the process, and will be barrel aging each of these lots for at least 24 months. If I was aging shorter, I probably would not have used such as high a percentage.

But YMMV, and I won’t imply that what I’m doing is ‘right or wrong’ for anyone else . . .

Cheers!

And to answer the original question - nope, I don’t agree with the line . . . but I do agree that if the stems are overly ‘noticeable’, then something is ‘out of whack’ . . . but that would be true with too much oak as well (-:

I’m just going to say that I really like whole cluster wines…and non-whole cluster wines. They can both be good…and bad.

Exactly, David . . . exactly!!!

Cheers!

Larry, what do you think the difference would be – chemically, process-wise, or in terms of the final product – if you had simply crushed and destemmed the grapes in the normal way, and then thrown all the stems back into the fermenter?

Is the gentle and gradual way that you crush significant to the different outcome you get, as compared to the simple fact that the stems are in the fermenter rather than discarded?

Chris,

That’s a great question. I’m not sure what the difference would be chemically - and the only real way to know would be do to multiple ferments with the same fruit using both techniques, and probably a few others as well. I do know that some winemaker do completely destem and then throw back a percentage of stems, with the ‘rationale’ that they are only looking for stems with certain ‘characteristics’.

And I can’t answer the second half either. All I know is that I like the results of what I get, and have learned that, with my grapes and my techniques, the ‘outcome’ justifies the process to me.

Cheers

What would you consider a low pH wine?

Curious if there’s a rule of thumb to include stems at below a certain pH, or if its not that simple.

Do you feel enzyme adds produce a different result from cold soaking?

(TIA for all the winemaking lessons. Feeling like a total noob.)

Nearly uniformly I prefer the wines we do whole cluster to the de-stemmed wines. That being said the wines that are de-stemmed generally are such either because the stems were not ripe enough in our opinion to be positive additions to the fermentations (this is topic of debate to at least an extent amongst winemakers who do whole cluster fermentations) or the vineyard or block in the vineyard does not carry the sort of flavor profile and/or inherent weight, depth and complexity to necessarily benefit from the inclusion and the extra work associated with it. Therefore those wines are better for their lack of stem inclusion.

We generally do not do more than about 60 percent but have done up to 80 percent. I love the character, depth, tannin structure and, well, pretty much everything about the wines when we really get it right. We’ve modified fermentation technique over the past few years and I think that has better accommodated the nature of these wines. We have an interesting, well to me anyway, experiment where we left one fermenter of Freedom Hill Vineyard fruit 100 percent de-stemmed but let it hang out with its whole cluster brethren and therefore get the specific type of fermentation technique we use with high whole cluster ferments. Too early and cold to tell much.

In short, big fan both as a producer and consumer.

I would add here that it, to me, not merely the inclusion of stems but that they are whole cluster in nature. The nature of the ferment is clearly different when the berries are on the stems as opposed to putting stems into the fermenter on the back end.

If ethereal delicacy is a goal, then whole cluster is an excellent avenue.