Best Small Pinot Noir Winery Crusher/Destemmer & Press

We are taking the plunge and looking to buy some dream equipment for this crush coming up…

We were thinking a Delta E2 Crusher Destemmer, and a Carlsen Basket Press…

Does anyone have any opinions on these items for a 2000 case Pinot Noir Winery hoping to grow to about 5000 cases with this equipment?

Our main requirements are gentle handing of the fruit, with the maximum flexibility for other varieties we might play with…

Any line on these items, used would be helpful…

Have you looked here yet? Listing can not be found

Base your press choice on tonnage of average use. I have a one ton press, Bucher, that sucks for 5+ tons of whites yet rocks for small red lots.

Also, I am partial to membrane presses.

Depending on how fast you like to destem, I might look at the E1, which does 2T/hour pretty nicely if you’re sorting hard, 5T if you’re not. The E2, in my recollection, is much bigger and requires a faster flow to work correctly. If I was buying just one press, I’d go membrane as well. You have more latitude as to what you can do with a good membrane press. Baskets are a bit of a hassle, yield 10% less, and are pretty poor for pressing whole cluster whites. If you don’t care about yields, you might prefer the basket for several reasons which are not all bunk – just remember, you can also get poor yields from a membrane press, you just have to change the settings.

Long story short, getting the E2 and a basket press seems a bit incongruous.

To echo the others on the press, if you are doing really small quantities, you might have to have the cake from another lot available to press a really small amount.

I’ve only run one lot of pinot through an E-2, but I was pretty impressed. The feed rate was well below what it was designed to handle, but that didn’t seem to present a problem.
A friend who bought a Carlsen basket press loves it for his reds but found he had to run his whites through the crusher twice before loading the press to get any sort of yield. You’re pretty pretty much committed to the brown juice regimen (if not orange wine) at that point.

Being from a completely different continent and looking back on my own experiences I would still back up what was said: think again about the basket press, is this really tailor-fitted to your needs? Unless it’s the perfect comination of your winemaking-style you might wish to favour a pneumatic press. Speaking for myself I love the Sigma
http://www.willmes.de/en/presses-products/sigma/index.html
but any other will do.

We have an E2 which works great for processing large amounts of fruit in a short amount of time. IMHO, it destroys pinot and I would never get one for small lot processing.

This is great, we super appreciate all your comments…

We are now leaning toward a Delta E1, with a plastic cage, and rollers removed… That being said, it might also be nice to get EVERYTHING from Carlsen here in Healdsburg, does anyone have any thoughts about the PuleoVega10 that they carry?

We really don’t make much white, and can use our old Italian bladder basket press for the small amount we do.

I’m still leaning toward the Carlsen Basket press, even tho virtually everyone has said No, No No!

We used a Vega for several years when I was renting space at Starry Night Winery. I felt like it beat up the pinot, yielded a lot of jacks and was no help in expelling any leaves that got past the sorters. I think my enthusiasm for the E-2 is based on it having followed the Vega.

Just saw an E-1 for sale

Yeah, the puleo-vega is a solid, standard destemmer with all the features you would expect these days, but its not an exceptional performer. It does as well as a handful of other small destemmers on the market. If you have reasonably ripe fruit and you learn to work the speeds properly, you can get a decent product. The E1 is probably the best for what you want to do, and while it does have its limitations it does really nicely on the high end, super gentle pinot/syrah. That’s a good price on the used on if there aren’t a ton of hours on it. I’d snap that up.

Eric,

The Puleo Vega 10 is the best piece of winery equipment I’ve ever owned. I highly recommend it for Pinot. It’s gentle, does an excellent job of separating whole berries from the rachis, and it’s very easy to clean. Plus, Carlsen has the best service in the business.

DO NOT get a Delta E1 for Pinot Noir, unless they’ve made improvements and the basket now spins. We got a brand new one for the '06 harvest and it was great for about 20 minutes, before the holes on the basket got clogged. We had to stop everything, unclog the holes, and start again. The 2nd round lasted about 5 minutes before we had to stop and unclog. The non spinning basket was designed to be the gentlest destemmer in the business. Unfortunately, in practice, it doesn’t work well for PN. So unless the basket now spins, and/or you have the patience of a saint plus many many hours to process small lots of PN, don’t get an E1 for PN.

I’ve used Delta E2s for PN at 3 different wineries. It’s also a very good machine, but I strongly prefer the Puleo Vega 10.

The Puleo Vega 10 is the best piece of winery equipment I’ve ever owned. I highly recommend it for Pinot. It’s gentle, does an excellent job of separating whole berries from the rachis, and it’s very easy to clean. Plus, Carlsen has the best service in the business.

The service is exceptional.

DO NOT get a Delta E1 for Pinot Noir, unless they’ve made improvements and the basket now spins. We got a brand new one for the '06 harvest and it was great for about 20 minutes, before the holes on the basket got clogged. We had to stop everything, unclog the holes, and start again. The 2nd round lasted about 5 minutes before we had to stop and unclog. The non spinning basket was designed to be the gentlest destemmer in the business. Unfortunately, in practice, it doesn’t work well for PN. So unless the basket now spins, and/or you have the patience of a saint plus many many hours to process small lots of PN, don’t get an E1 for PN.

True if there are many leaves or dry rachides and not the best for a fast result, but absolutely the best result in the bin for Pinot and Syrah. Far fewer jacks and torn skins than the Puleo-Vega. A little finicky, but worth it. FWIW, I used an E1 for three years, and have used a Puleo-Vega for the last two. If I was only making top-end wine, I’d buy another E1 in a second… but it has its limitations.

I’ve used Delta E2s for PN at 3 different wineries. It’s also a very good machine, but I strongly prefer the Puleo Vega 10.[/quote]

I reiterate no on the E1, unless they changed the basket to rotate as well. I have had good luck with older and newer E2’s for Pinot Noir for several vintages.
I love my 5 ton basket presses for Pinot Noir and would not press any other way. Cleaner press wine, and making press cuts are the advantages I like. My yield is not much lower than a membrane and I don’t filter so I don’t have any losses there.
Basket press works for whites but is not ideal. I only process 1-2 tons of Semillion in ours, yields are small 120 gal/ton but still cheaper than getting another press.

If anyone know anyone who has a Puleo Vega 10 for sale please let me know… (Carlsen is out for the season)

We’d also be happy to rent one from someone who might not need it until later in the season, since we only make Pinot…

The destemmers mentioned are all based on the same principle of rachis removal save for basket rotation, basket material(metal vs polymer), finger configuration, speed control, and feed control. There are alternatives to this design. We have seen and discussed with owners 2 other destemmer designs which appear to release less juice on destemming than the conventional cage-finger style. They are the Milani Estasi(Criveller) and the Euroselect(Euromachines). The Bucher-Vaslin Oscillys(sp?) is too new to get good experience info on it. These alternatives are slightly more in cost. Additionally, they may change the crushpad workflow you might have based on grape feed and exit locations. Couple of promo videos below for the Estasi.

Couldn’t find real good Euroselect videos but try the link part way down the following page … http://www.hollygrovevineyards.com/HollyGroveVineyard.html . My overall impression is that these 2 designs(Estasi & Euroselect) give you better control of berry integrity in the output if that matters to you. Also the Estasi allows for a short sorting table run within the unit. The Euroselect allows for 2 streams of berry sorting during the destemming process based on berry-rachis attachment strength. Which means it is possible to sort out soft from hard berries. These 2 designs are not perfect but they are worth taking a close look at.


Cheers, Gary

Hey Everyone I thought I’d update everyone on what we’ve decided to get, and why…

Naturally there are multiple variables that can effect a large equipment purchase like this, some obvious ones being, Price, Availability, Suitability, Service, to name a few…

If price and availability were no object we probably would have gone with the Puleo Vega 10, and the Carlsen Basket Press, based on the glowing reviews, here and elsewhere, but that would have been over $60K, and there was not a new PV 10 to be had in the US this year.

If we had found either of those items used and nearby for sale we might have done that, but there are none. That being said the folks at Carlsen here in Healdsburg have been very helpful, and we wish we would have been able to work with them on this, but we do buy all kinds of other doodads from them, and will probably be doing that forever.

After visiting and/or talking to several of our friends who make very fine Pinot Noir, we’ve decide to go with the Lugana 1R Destemmer (with the plastic cage, no rollers), with a catwalk, and a SK PSP-8 programmable Membrane Press, all from Prospero in Windsor.

We have some very good friends who use the slightly larger models of this setup and who are very happy with it, and will be available to assist us as necessary, as well as Prospero being local to us here in Healdsburg.

We also managed to find a used Bin Dumper as a great price, so except for a sorting apparatus, (which think we are going to build ourselves) , it looks like our equipment line up is settled for this year.

Thanks for all your help, comments and insights.

I hate to resurrect a 7 year old thread but it’s just too perfect. I came on here looking for info a a Delta E2 because I’ve heard how great they are. I’ve been talking with Prospero about pulling the trigger on a Lugana R1 however and I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t making a poor choice. Then I see you were in my exact shoes 7 years ago Eric and ended up getting the Lugana. How has it been working with it all this time? Was it the right choice afterall? My winery is in Washington State and we deal with most everything save for pinot and zin.

On another note, I’ve used a Rauch A8 and the Milani Estasi. Two very different machines. I’d take the Rauch over the Milani any day. The speed and cleaning protocols for the Milani are nothing short of a total nightmare.

The Lugana has worked well, and is still in service, and we’ve had zero issues with it. The SK PSP-8 press however, never made it stateside and Prospero lent us one, and we luckily realized that is was not for us, mostly capacity wise, but also cleaning was a bitch.

We ended up with a Mori PZ 80 FL Hydraulic Basket Press - 1.4 Tons , and have been very happy with it. Not so useful for whites tho!

I love using a basket press for reds. Our neighbor presses our whites with their big pneumatic. Our press is similar to the Mori in size and design but old and I’ve never really figured out the manufacturer. For small operations and small lots sizes, baskets are great. We have two baskets, fill the second while pressing the first, then dump and refill while pressing second. We can usually get two T-bin ferments per basket if we de-juice them first. For doing extremely small, like 600-700 lbs., we have a thick plate we add then some 4x4 on top to take up space. Then you can quickly press without running out of piston stroke. Like mentioned above, baskets provide pretty clean wine and with a settling step we go to barrel with a yield that isn’t much less and no filtration. We tried doing whites with the rope, doily things from Mori to create juice paths. Helps and beats rice hulls but still not ideal.