Diamond Creek Offer - Only the rich need apply

[Alan Eden]

Diamond Creek is now retailing at $250 a bottle, i know its decent wine but that seems very expensive. even with 25% discount for futures when you add tax and shipping back in its over $200 a bottle

[Bill Tex Landreth]

I think the pedigree, age ability and current Napa Cab pricing supports that price point. I am not a buyer, but I don't see the price as very expensive compared to lots and lots of new comers that retail right there or above. Of course YMMV.

[Anton D]

I think the pedigree, age ability and current Napa Cab pricing supports that price point. I am not a buyer, but I don't see the price as very expensive compared to lots and lots of new comers that retail right there or above. Of course YMMV.

Price discussions are tough.

I know it's the business owner's business to maximize profit, but I do feel sadly left behind from the days when this was a wine I bought.

As a consumer, I hate when prices of items I used to be able to afford inflate themselves beyond my means! They are obviously allowed to do it, I am allowed to kvetch about it! Fair's fair!

[Bill Tex Landreth]

Agreed on all counts.

[David Baum]

Will be tasting there in a few weeks. Been on my bucket list of places to visit in a while. Its $95 and policy is no trade tastings, no trade discounts and no free tasting with purchase as they make about 1500 cases per year.

[Alan Eden]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

[Bill Tex Landreth]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

Just one example on where that falls apart is Pavie. Well above DC's pricing.

[Alan Eden]

I was talking about real Bdx not that right bank stuff

[Todd F r e n c h]

Plenty of back vintages available for about half that - time will tell if the $200-250 pricepoint will work

[Craig G]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

Just one example on where that falls apart is Pavie. Well above DC's pricing.

Pavie is a 1er Grand Cru (A) now, same rank as Cheval Blanc.

[Kelly Walker]

Historically, in my experience, DC wines needed many years of age to drink. Very St. Estephe-like. Was on their list in the 90s but decided I much preferred Bdx in that style. There was a long period in which the newer cults eclipsed their popularity. Looks like they are trying to get back up on the pedestal. I wish them luck.

[Bill Tex Landreth]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

Just one example on where that falls apart is Pavie. Well above DC's pricing.

Pavie is a 1er Grand Cru (A) now, same rank as Cheval Blanc.

Fair enough, but still not an original First Growth to which the OP was aimed I am sure.

[Levi Dalton]

I visited Diamond Creek Vineyards for the first time recently. I found it helpful to get a visual on what the different parcels actually look like, how they relate to each other, etc.

[OwenB]

It’s definitely worth the visit. The property is beautiful and the tour/tasting is great. I picked up a couple bottles then, but am not otherwise a buyer given the price point.

[Chris Atkins]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

Not LLC, I bought 2016 for $299 per. I am looking much deeper into Bordeaux now. Forman at $115, and Dunn Howell Mountain at $130 are still reasonably priced. Regardless of what Napa vintners say I am cutting way back on vintage 2017.

[Howard Cooper]

Don't many California Cabernet cost more than $250. Why single out Diamond Creek? At least they have a very long and illustrious track record.

[John Morris]

1. Diamond Creek was one of the most expensive Napa cabs back in the 1980s.
2. It has a track record.
3. It's a relative bargain. Here are just a very few of the Napa cabs selling for far higher prices at Zachy's:

• Opus One 2015 (750ML)
  $399.99
  
  Colgin Cariad Red 2015 (750ML)
  $649.99
  
  Dominus Estate 2014 (750ML)
  $259.99
  
  Schrader RBS Beckstoffer To Kalon Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon 2015 (750ML)
  $479.99
  
  Schrader GIII Beckstoffer Georges III Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon 2015 (750ML)
  $479.99
  
  Larkmead The Lark Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon 2012 (750ML)
  $484.99
  
  Eisele Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon 2014 (750ML)
  $579.99
  
  Lail Vineyards J. Daniel Cuvee Cabernet Sauvignon 2013 (1.5L)
  $583.99
  
  Araujo Estate Eisele Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon 2011 (750ML)
  $599.99
  
  Eisele Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon 2013 (750ML)
  $599.99
  
  Levy & McClellan Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon 2009 (750ML)
  $695.00
  
  Screaming Eagle Second Flight Napa Valley Red 2010 (750ML)
  $719.99

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Corison is $95. Gets the job done for me!

[Markus S]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

It's like politics today: push and push until things break.
Thing is, Diamond Creek has always been expensive cabernet. I remember in the late 80's, when the 'big names' (like Montelena, Stags Leap, etc.) were selling around what..$28-35 or so, DC was already up to around $50 (if I'm remembering correctly. If not accurate about prices, I am about the notable range).

[John Morris]

It's like politics today: push and push until things break.
Thing is, Diamond Creek has always been expensive cabernet. I remember in the late 80's, when the 'big names' (like Montelena, Stags Leap, etc.) were selling around what..$28-35 or so, DC was already up to around $50 (if I'm remembering correctly. If not accurate about prices, I am about the notable range).

You're right as a general matter. I remember that, as a well-paid young lawyer in the 80s, Diamond Creek was out of my price range at a time I was buying super-second Bordeaux.

[Markus S]

I was talking about real Bdx not that right bank stuff

Ooooo...'dems fightin' words.

[Sc0tt F!tzger@ld]

Corison is $95. Gets the job done for me!

This.

[Sc0tt F!tzger@ld]

they make about 1500 cases per year.

So $200 to get a relatively small production Napa cab with a proven track record and history of aging well, compared to mega-thousand case Bdx at a comparable price? I can see their pricing logic.

Now if you move down into the $50-$150 range, Bdx kicks Napa’s ass (Corison being a rare exception).

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Don’t ignore the Matthiasson Cabernet, Merlot and Red Wine. Serious stuff under $100. The Cab is around $60.

[Thomas Keim]

I think the pedigree, age ability and current Napa Cab pricing supports that price point. I am not a buyer, but I don't see the price as very expensive compared to lots and lots of new comers that retail right there or above. Of course YMMV.

Frankly, if anyone deserves these prices, it's Diamond Creek. They age well, and are from some of this country's very top sites.

[R_Gilbane]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

Not sure what Roy Piper or his wines have to do with Diamond Creek....

[Anton D]

Sometimes, I think having a track record is what pisses people off.

If someone recalls a wine going for 30 bucks and now it goes over 200, it’s a case of thinking that the underlying cost of production doesn’t justify the price, it’s purely price hiking (above inflation costs, etc.)

Some new high end wine gets a pass because there are higher cost barriers to entering the market: grapes, new facility, etc.

A new cab from a new facility using purchased grapes might need to enter the market at a higher price and we nod along.

Jacking up the price of a wine just because the market may bear it tastes different.

This is not sour grapes, just commenting on how the same pricing may yield different perceptions.

I have no horse in this race, just thinking about human nature.

[R_Gilbane]

Sometimes, I think having a track record is what pisses people off.

If someone recalls a wine going for 30 bucks and now it goes over 200, it’s a case of thinking that the underlying cost of production doesn’t justify the price, it’s purely price hiking (above inflation costs, etc.)

Some new high end wine gets a pass because there are higher cost barriers to entering the market: grapes, new facility, etc.

A new cab from a new facility using purchased grapes might need to enter the market at a higher price and we nod along.

Jacking up the price of a wine just because the market may bear it tastes different.

This is not sour grapes, just commenting on how the same pricing may yield different perceptions.

I have no horse in this race, just thinking about human nature.

That’s a statement that stinks of thoughtfulness and logic. I reject it outright on the grounds that Alan was miles away from that mindset’s zip code when he crafted the OP. Diamond Creek pricing has been relatively consistent for several years and unless I’m mistaken, Alan hasn’t been buying it. He used it to complain about Napa price increases, which is a macro matter.

Serious question: does anyone really think the pricing of one winery is indicative of an entire region’s future success or failure?

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Heck no, it’s not. Napa would have died years ago if one, or even several overpriced wines doomed the region’s future. Harlan, Screagle, etc. make Diamond Creek look cheap, and have for years.

[Bill Tex Landreth]

Sometimes, I think having a track record is what pisses people off.

If someone recalls a wine going for 30 bucks and now it goes over 200, it’s a case of thinking that the underlying cost of production doesn’t justify the price, it’s purely price hiking (above inflation costs, etc.)

Some new high end wine gets a pass because there are higher cost barriers to entering the market: grapes, new facility, etc.

A new cab from a new facility using purchased grapes might need to enter the market at a higher price and we nod along.

Jacking up the price of a wine just because the market may bear it tastes different.

This is not sour grapes, just commenting on how the same pricing may yield different perceptions.

I have no horse in this race, just thinking about human nature.

That’s a statement that stinks of thoughtfulness and logic. I reject it outright on the grounds that Alan was miles away from that mindset’s zip code when he crafted the OP. Diamond Creek pricing has been relatively consistent for several years and unless I’m mistaken, Alan hasn’t been buying it. He used it to complain about Napa price increases, which is a macro matter.

Serious question: does anyone really think the pricing of one winery is indicative of an entire region’s future success or failure?

No. Screaming Eagle’s pricing has no bearing or correlation to Napa’s success or failure.

They can charge two grand a bottle in a bad year and get it whilst the rest of the valley crumbles.

[M. Taylor]

Will be tasting there in a few weeks. Been on my bucket list of places to visit in a while. Its $95 and policy is no trade tastings, no trade discounts and no free tasting with purchase as they make about 1500 cases per year.

No issue with what they want to charge, but charging for a tasting at that price pint if you buy is a bit obnoxious. Purchased several at/near/above that price point, with similar or smaller production, with no tasting fee.

[Alan Eden]

Sometimes, I think having a track record is what pisses people off.

If someone recalls a wine going for 30 bucks and now it goes over 200, it’s a case of thinking that the underlying cost of production doesn’t justify the price, it’s purely price hiking (above inflation costs, etc.)

Some new high end wine gets a pass because there are higher cost barriers to entering the market: grapes, new facility, etc.

A new cab from a new facility using purchased grapes might need to enter the market at a higher price and we nod along.

Jacking up the price of a wine just because the market may bear it tastes different.

This is not sour grapes, just commenting on how the same pricing may yield different perceptions.

I have no horse in this race, just thinking about human nature.

That’s a statement that stinks of thoughtfulness and logic. I reject it outright on the grounds that Alan was miles away from that mindset’s zip code when he crafted the OP. Diamond Creek pricing has been relatively consistent for several years and unless I’m mistaken, Alan hasn’t been buying it. He used it to complain about Napa price increases, which is a macro matter.

Serious question: does anyone really think the pricing of one winery is indicative of an entire region’s future success or failure?

Your correct i dont buy DC but i do buy several cabs in the $100-$250 range. Again your correct that im just using them as an example as i am with Roy Piper, i have nothing against either wine just examples. If you look at Bdx the prices kept on rising but a few years back they hit a major speed bump and some rethinking was required, i just feel that Napa is getting close to a similar speed bump. How many people will ultimately support $200 cabs let alone the splurge of $5-600 cabs someone mentioned.

[Robert.A.Jr.]

It's like politics today: push and push until things break.
Thing is, Diamond Creek has always been expensive cabernet. I remember in the late 80's, when the 'big names' (like Montelena, Stags Leap, etc.) were selling around what..$28-35 or so, DC was already up to around $50 (if I'm remembering correctly. If not accurate about prices, I am about the notable range).

You're right as a general matter. I remember that, as a well-paid young lawyer in the 80s, Diamond Creek was out of my price range at a time I was buying super-second Bordeaux.

Ditto for me but in the 1990s.

But I always did wonder. And now that I think about it, I’ve actually never even tried a bottle. And yet, sadly for me, have had several Screagles, Harlans, Sacrecrows, Mayas, Hundred Acres, yada yada. Besides Maya, the others were yawners.

Now I’m curious again. What mature vintages should I consider?

[Bill Tex Landreth]

1995 is stellar.

1978 is benchmark Napa Cab from DC, but very spendy.

[Robert.A.Jr.]

1995 is stellar.

Which cuvee?

[Bill Tex Landreth]

1995 is stellar.

Which cuvee?

All three are very good, but if forced to pick one it would be Volcanic Hill for me.

[R_Gilbane]

Alan, understand your POV. I’ve picked up DC bottles at auction (early 80s and 90s) as the only bidder and was subsequently blown away by how good they were. However, I’ve never bought direct and couldn’t tell you that I know anyone who has. I can certainly speak to the greatness and longevity of their wines from experience, but I wonder about the long term business model if very few people under a certain age group have ever tried the wine.

[Kris Patten]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

That is unfair....Roy pays the market price for fruit and prices his wine accordingly based on COGS. Most Bordelais, for as much as they may have paid for the land, own their property.

[Karl K]

Slightly off topic

I remember in the late 90s buying some early 80s vintage DC from a grocery store in DC (Wagshals?) and the wines were in prime form.

Took them to Northern CA and drank them on the beach.

[Alan Eden]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

That is unfair....Roy pays the market price for fruit and prices his wine accordingly based on COGS. Most Bordelais, for as much as they may have paid for the land, own their property.

Im not attacking Roy, im just talking about the economics of Napa generally.

[Nate Simon]

2007 be like, "I'm back, suckas..."

[David Baum]

1995 is stellar.

Which cuvee?

Have had some stunning bottles from mid 80's

[Charlie Carnes]

It's like politics today: push and push until things break.
Thing is, Diamond Creek has always been expensive cabernet. I remember in the late 80's, when the 'big names' (like Montelena, Stags Leap, etc.) were selling around what..$28-35 or so, DC was already up to around $50 (if I'm remembering correctly. If not accurate about prices, I am about the notable range).

You're right as a general matter. I remember that, as a well-paid young lawyer in the 80s, Diamond Creek was out of my price range at a time I was buying super-second Bordeaux.

Ditto for me but in the 1990s.

But I always did wonder. And now that I think about it, I’ve actually never even tried a bottle. And yet, sadly for me, have had several Screagles, Harlans, Sacrecrows, Mayas, Hundred Acres, yada yada. Besides Maya, the others were yawners.

Now I’m curious again. What mature vintages should I consider?

I'll bring one over for the next round of bacchanalian fun...

[Howard Cooper]

I have had some stunning wines from Diamond Creek, including a 1978 Volcanic Hill that was better (at least on the night we tasted it) than a 1979 Lafite. But, that wine was made by Al Brounstein, who unfortunately has passed away. I have not had any DC wines of more recent vintages. Who is making the wines now and are they still up to the standards of the wines made by Al Brounstein.

[Dave McCloskey]

Shhhhhhhh, Realm Cellars "The Bard".

[Eric Ifune]

Back in the 80's they would hold their annual picnic where you could taste the new releases. Things have changed, I guess, since Al and Boots passed. But yes, they were for a long time the most expensive wines in the valley.

[Levi Dalton]

Boots has not passed away. She is 92 and lives on the property.

[Markus S]

It does seem that Napa is going to get its butt kicked by Bdx if it doesnt stop these massive increases. I know Roy Piper is a great guy and his wine is awesome but he had two 20% increases in like 4-5 years going from $125 to $175, there are dozens more doing the same. It doesnt matter that cost of living goes up in Napa, the market will eventually revolt against regular 20% hikes. Diamond Creek is now more expensive than some really well known Bdx futures like Montrose, LLC etc and more than almost all non first growths except maybe Palmer

That is unfair....Roy pays the market price for fruit and prices his wine accordingly based on COGS. Most Bordelais, for as much as they may have paid for the land, own their property.

I'm a little tired of this argument because economic theory would suggest that, therefore, you (as a consumer) would simply procure the less-expensive alternative...all things 'being equal'. So we ought to drink more Bordeaux!

[Todd F r e n c h]

Boots has not passed away. She is 92 and lives on the property.

And frankly, when I went to the Diamond Creek website yesterday to check it out (I'm guessing DC got a few orders from this thread and the universally positive remarks about the wine, other than current pricing, maybe) and saw that the properietor's name is Boots, and saw her pic and her message on the site, I just about signed up to buy as well. Freakin' Boots! AWESOME!

[Mark Golodetz]

I have had some stunning wines from Diamond Creek, including a 1978 Volcanic Hill that was better (at least on the night we tasted it) than a 1979 Lafite. But, that wine was made by Al Brounstein, who unfortunately has passed away. I have not had any DC wines of more recent vintages. Who is making the wines now and are they still up to the standards of the wines made by Al Brounstein.

Al Brounstein was a real character, obsessed by three things, his wife,Boots, the different Terroirs of DC, and finally how much people would pay for the Lake.

He showed me an article that put it in the top five.